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#91

harrismm , 08-22-2009 10:12 AM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflowergirl68
It has nothing to do with me or what I want. You're not getting it. All I am saying is that if people want to, they can overcome pretty much any problem they have. and I think it's bull**** to just sit there and make excuses for people when they can improve and change pretty much any situation they're in.
This is like saying everyone on 3FC should be skinny.Come on..........Why cant people overcome their weight issues?My concern is for her mental health and the mental health of these children.These children are in serious trouble.Socially, the future does not look bright for them with out an intervention.She, sadly does not seem to recognize this problem.My hope is that at some point she is able to embrace assistance for her and her family.At this point, as I have said earlier, she does not appear stable.

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#92

kiramira , 08-22-2009 01:01 PM

Right on Ms Harrismm!
I think there are a bunch of issues here, but the one that bugs me the most concerns those that are treating her like a victim, as though she had no choice in the matter. As though she came home and was surprised to see 14 kids and no job and no visible means of support.

She created her own situation. Aided of course by MDs, who also IMHO were completely irresponsible with respect to providing IVF. But she obviously had the coin, and made the conscious decision to have these children. So my sympathy is clearly NOT for her. She seems to have enough coin for IVF and for intense plastic surgery, so where IS the $$ coming from? What is REALLY going on?

The second thing that bugs me is that these kids didn't ask to be brought into this world. These KIDS are going to need help. But the fact of the matter is that IF you say Octomom was clearly in need of psychiatric care because she made the decision to HAVE them, then you need to put the needs of these kids FIRST cause they are already behind the 8-ball. Which is what Ms Harrismm is saying. Now, if she REFUSES the help because it isn't on HER terms, you have to wonder if the kids would be better off in another environment...we all seem to condemn the situation but are hesitant to either force her into mental health care for the sake of her children or to remove these children to a carefully selected second home. We as a society condemn, wring our hands, but won't act...if you think she is a nutbar, there has to be the courage to back it up with action for the sake of these kids.

I feel bad for the kids. I have no sympathy for the mom. And I am pretty confident that we'll be seeing some of these kids in the future either in the Juvenile or the Adult Corrections System. This isn't about numbers (my mother has 15 siblings (!), raised on a farm in poverty. All did just fine. My DH is 1 of 9 kids, all of whom have University degrees and are gainfully employed without any substance/alcohol issues.) This is about the ability of Octomom to parent these kids. She self-admittedly doesn't have the skills. And she doesn't recognize this as a problem. This doesn't bode well for the future of these kids...

Kira

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#93

helwa588 , 08-22-2009 01:06 PM

i think this woman is unstable if you ask me. you know there are so many things wrong with this situation. im not against people who have a lot of kids. i know tons of people who have 6,7,8 and even 10 kids. but my thing is octomom is single(i know there are a lot of women who choose to have kids and not married but if you plan on having 14 kids you better have husband), has no job, she used all her disability money into having six through IVF. then sh goes and gets six eggs implanted in her (two of the eggs wind out splitting). this woman didn't even have her own home when she was having all of these kids. her parents had to go bankrupt because of her. 2 of 6 kids she had before having the the 8 babies had Autism.

not i think she's not the only one to blame here. i think the doctor should take some of this blame. he knew the guidelines where no more than 2 eggs implanted at a time. he went triple the amount. and didn't think that implanting all these eggs into a single unemployed woman was a bad idea.

in the end these kids are going to suffer the most.

the only thing positive i can say about octomom is that she looks great after having 8 babies. she lost that baby weight pretty quick.

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#94

harrismm , 08-22-2009 01:49 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflowergirl68
I'm not talking about being sick. And it's not about having access. People have friends, friends and family can help.

But this woman has access to pretty much anything she wants because she's in the media spotlight. People would be more than willing to give her free psychological care or free health care or whatever she wants.
Uhhhhh......thats why they call it a mental illness.She is sick.

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#95

JuliaDH , 08-22-2009 01:52 PM

In regards to money. I believe that she was injured in a prison where she worked several years ago and received a settlement.

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#96

kiahna23 , 08-22-2009 02:19 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods
It's easy to guess and speculate about the motives and thought processes behind someone else's behavior (especially if they've gotten into the media spotlight -whether or not intentionally).

Most of the time, I think we're far more likely to be wrong than right. Which is why I generally do try to avoid most of the reality show and gossip coverage, but it's difficult, because the story is so compelling (if only in a traffic-accident way), of the media coverage, and the popularity in every day conversations for people to bring it up.

From what I have seen on the situation, I feel badly for Nadya, her children, and her parents. I think there are probably some severe issues going on, but they may not be the ones I think they are. There are a thousand possibilities. Because of the extreme (to my eyes) plastic surgery, I strongly suspect body dismorphic disorder, but she might also have had a lousy plastic surgeon. I believe the family has talked about severe clinical depression especially post-partum depression (which can cause delusions and psychotic episodes, an irrational desire for more children, is well within the possible effects). I also suspect an OCD "hoarding" component, which (hoarding that is) is being coverend in another thread.

It's interesting to me that she gets so little sympathy, when there's been more given (on this website) in the hoarder's thread toward the woman hoarding rotting vegetables. It's true that vegetables aren't living beings, but working in the mental health field with a masters' degree in psychology - I've seen hoarders of all types, and I think Octomom fits much of the profile (though I may be completely wrong).

If she is an ocd-driven hoarder, the urge to "collect" is virtually uncontrollable without medication AND counseling. While it's true that hoarding children is exceedingly rare - but mostly because until now (and I'd argue even now far more often than not) it's been virtually impossible. Having children "naturally" it would be impossible to have 14 children all under the age of 8. Being given non-birthed children would be unlikely (but possible, if she were willing to adopt or foster hard-to-place, especially handicapped children, even so - whether in an adoptive or a naturally-born huge huge family, children's ages are far more spaced out to the point that older children are able to help raise and care for the younger children.

I think Nadya's case, most closely parallel's animal hoarders. People who hoard pet animals often have the "best" of intentions. They believe they are rescuing the critters (and it often starts that way) but when the numbers get out of control, the urge to rescue more is still there. They bond so closely to each animal, that even though animals may be sick or dying because of lack of care, care they don't have the resources to provide, that they can't bare to part with any of them - even temporarily for treatment.

It Nadya does have the ocd hoarder's "need" for pregnancy/children - it would be exceedingly difficult for her to fight it. Rational thought isn't likely to win out over the irrational thoughts and impulses without a lot of intervention (and usually drugs).

She did admit, I saw in a commercial clip on tv, and in bold writing in a tabloid at the grocery checkout that she dod "admit it was a mistake," and said she only expected one or two babies to be born (would 9 or 10 still have been nearly as idiotic as 14? Probably).

I've also heard in the ubiquitous gossip, that she has fired many nannies/nurses that were sent to assist her with the children. On one hand, it makes her look to many people like an arrogant evil bi(never mind), but it really fits with the hoarder theory too. OCD hoarder's go a bit wonky when anyone interferes or attempts to assist in their situation. Their anxiety goes through the roof, and the irrational thoughts/behaviors escalate.

One thing that did start me thinking about her mental state differently than my first (and negative) impression, is finding out that all of her children were conceived in vitro at the same time (from one donation of sperm). Because Nadya believes (I do too, for that matter) that life begins at conception, and she couldn't accept that those remaining embryos would need to be discarded (killed) or given to couples she didn't know (because it would, essentially be HER children away).

I think the most irresponsible person in the situation wasn't Nadya, but her doctor. Her family knew she had a problem, and went to the doctor and begged him not to do any more embryo transfers (which according to Nadya's mother, the doctor did promise he wouldn't, but later did the implantation anyway). Then, not only did he do the implantation, but he implanted ALL of them (which I later learned is completely against the standard practice, which is to never implant more than 3 embryos in a woman under 35, because of the good success rate).

Personally I think (and I could be wrong), the doctor implanted all of the remaining embryos to be able to more quickly wash his hands of her. I hope I'm not true there, because he would also have known how unlikely it was for all (or even any) babies to survive with that many implanted. The risks to the life of Nadya was also much increased. So, if he was willing to risk the lives of all eight fetuses AND the life of a mother of eight small children just for the money, or so he wouldn't have to deal with her again, I think he bears as much, or more responsibility than Nadya herself.

I think it's easy to say that she "should have" known better or sought conseling, etc.... but when a person has such severe irrational thoughts and impulses, they're also unaware that those thoughts and impulses ARE irrational. Whether they want another kitten, or another baby - it makes all the sense in the world to them, at the time. Or, they may even know THAT it's irrational, but may be unable to fight the impulse anyway. So, they either avoid necessary treatment/assistance because they feel they don't need it, or because they feel something even more horrible than their current situation will befall them if their situation is altered or affected in any way.

If a generic stuff/junk hoarder for example, has four foot piles of trash in every square inch of the home, if someone comes in and moves (let alone disposes of) so much as a single paper cup, piece of junkmial or a pizza crust - it sends them into a fit of anxiety and sometimes even panic. They probably can't explain why they need the item(s), they just know that they do.

All my suppositions may be false (I'd almost guarantee that at least one of them is), and she truly may be a selfish, attention-seeking ego-maniac. However, I think my guesses are just as likely.
Wow you said alot! lol..But I agree with you on the parts I did read...We are unsure and that all I was trying to say...Her doctor was a moron but she had so many problems in the past and she always implanted MANY embryos and come out with one or 2 at the most...She didnt expect this...And i do believe conception starts at birth....And as far as her pay...disability right? WTF? In cali disability is almost what you get paid on your real job and it depends on how uch you put in based on your pay...my hubby got 700 weekly...we have 4 kids and LOTS of bills...It was hard to live on that...SO I doubt if she lived on it soley...Lots of speculation...its sad but thats how our country is....we are very critical...not saying you are...I agree with you...you have to look at the facts and look from all angles not just yours..

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#97

kiahna23 , 08-22-2009 02:21 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by harrismm
This is like saying everyone on 3FC should be skinny.Come on..........Why cant people overcome their weight issues?My concern is for her mental health and the mental health of these children.These children are in serious trouble.Socially, the future does not look bright for them with out an intervention.She, sadly does not seem to recognize this problem.My hope is that at some point she is able to embrace assistance for her and her family.At this point, as I have said earlier, she does not appear stable.
that made sense...good point...

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#98

kiahna23 , 08-22-2009 02:31 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by helwa588
i think this woman is unstable if you ask me. you know there are so many things wrong with this situation. im not against people who have a lot of kids. i know tons of people who have 6,7,8 and even 10 kids. but my thing is octomom is single(i know there are a lot of women who choose to have kids and not married but if you plan on having 14 kids you better have husband), has no job, she used all her disability money into having six through IVF. then sh goes and gets six eggs implanted in her (two of the eggs wind out splitting). this woman didn't even have her own home when she was having all of these kids. her parents had to go bankrupt because of her. 2 of 6 kids she had before having the the 8 babies had Autism.

not i think she's not the only one to blame here. i think the doctor should take some of this blame. he knew the guidelines where no more than 2 eggs implanted at a time. he went triple the amount. and didn't think that implanting all these eggs into a single unemployed woman was a bad idea.

in the end these kids are going to suffer the most.

the only thing positive i can say about octomom is that she looks great after having 8 babies. she lost that baby weight pretty quick.
to me stability is a relative term...We arent all the same...I love my kids! I have 4 and I wanted 6...But after 4! ugghhhh! They can get kinda loud but they can also be fun...My parents werent very affectionate..and didnt do the "I love you" thing...so it made me want alot of kids...So I think like this..if I wanted 6 and I was "stable" then why cant somone take it a little further? She didnt anticipate that many...And we cant say she was bad for wanting to implant her babies...I would NEVER kill my babies...im a pro-lifer...always have been...Maybe she had a connection with her babies that we cant understand...I cried when I was 16 and everyone tried to get me to get an abortion...I cried so hard....I kinda see how she feels....on that issue...

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#99

kiahna23 , 08-22-2009 02:32 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by JuliaDH
In regards to money. I believe that she was injured in a prison where she worked several years ago and received a settlement.
makes more sense....because I know in cali disability doesnt pay much...

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#100

sunflowergirl68 , 08-22-2009 02:51 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by harrismm
This is like saying everyone on 3FC should be skinny.Come on..........Why cant people overcome their weight issues?My concern is for her mental health and the mental health of these children.These children are in serious trouble.Socially, the future does not look bright for them with out an intervention.She, sadly does not seem to recognize this problem.My hope is that at some point she is able to embrace assistance for her and her family.At this point, as I have said earlier, she does not appear stable.
That's not what I'm saying at all. People are *working* towards it. That's what I mean. People here *are* helping themselves. You don't have to be skinny to have helped yourself. I'm struggling with weight loss, but I'm still at it and still helping myself.

Likewise, someone with mental health problems would be helping themselves by going to a therapist and taking whatever medications are prescribed, they don't have to be healthy in order to help themselves.

And you just reiterated my point. She does appear to have mental health issues, but she is NOT going to get help for it because she thinks she's fine. The only way she'll get help is if something extreme happens, like her kids are taken away.

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#101

sunflowergirl68 , 08-22-2009 02:54 PM

@kiramira: That's pretty much what I'm saying too.

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#102

juliastl27 , 08-22-2009 03:43 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by sunflowergirl68
That's not what I'm saying at all. People are *working* towards it. That's what I mean. People here *are* helping themselves. You don't have to be skinny to have helped yourself. I'm struggling with weight loss, but I'm still at it and still helping myself.

Likewise, someone with mental health problems would be helping themselves by going to a therapist and taking whatever medications are prescribed, they don't have to be healthy in order to help themselves.

And you just reiterated my point. She does appear to have mental health issues, but she is NOT going to get help for it because she thinks she's fine. The only way she'll get help is if something extreme happens, like her kids are taken away.
i agree with this. its like someone coming on here and complaining all day about how fat they are, but refusing any advice, and continuing to eat 5000 calories a day. i go to a psychiatrist for extreme anxiety and agoraphobia (stemming from childhood trauma). even though my problems are still there, its the simple fact that i am TRYING to get some help. im not perfect, and will never be, but when you are being offered opportunities that other single mothers would KILL for, and you're just throwing them away... personal responsibility has to come in at some point.

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#103

helwa588 , 08-22-2009 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by kiahna23
to me stability is a relative term...We arent all the same...I love my kids! I have 4 and I wanted 6...But after 4! ugghhhh! They can get kinda loud but they can also be fun...My parents werent very affectionate..and didnt do the "I love you" thing...so it made me want alot of kids...So I think like this..if I wanted 6 and I was "stable" then why cant somone take it a little further? She didnt anticipate that many...And we cant say she was bad for wanting to implant her babies...I would NEVER kill my babies...im a pro-lifer...always have been...Maybe she had a connection with her babies that we cant understand...I cried when I was 16 and everyone tried to get me to get an abortion...I cried so hard....I kinda see how she feels....on that issue...
i understand the need for wanting a lot of kids because there something missing in a childhood. i myself feel the need for when im ready to have kids to want between 3- 5 kids. because octomom was the only child she probably felt like she was missing something. she was probably lonely. but to have that many kids with no job, no home and no spouse is just insane. and im pro-life as well. but what i meant was she shouldn't have had those 6 eggs implanted in her in the first place. she knew there was a chance of all those eggs being fertilized. and she didn't have her eggs unfrozen. she could have kept hem frozen.

the fact of the matter she shouldn't of had those first 6 kids and then go and get 6 eggs implanted when she had no money, no house and no man.

there are enough parent less kids in this country that need to be taken care of. she could have frosted some children. instead the state of California has been taking care of these kids she had.

but i do feel sorry for her. raising 14 kids all by yourself is enough make any one go mad.

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#104

EZMONEY , 08-22-2009 04:56 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by helwa588
i think this woman is unstable...
Ya think?

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#105

sunflowergirl68 , 08-22-2009 05:04 PM

Quote:
Originally Posted by juliastl27
i agree with this. its like someone coming on here and complaining all day about how fat they are, but refusing any advice, and continuing to eat 5000 calories a day. i go to a psychiatrist for extreme anxiety and agoraphobia (stemming from childhood trauma). even though my problems are still there, its the simple fact that i am TRYING to get some help. im not perfect, and will never be, but when you are being offered opportunities that other single mothers would KILL for, and you're just throwing them away... personal responsibility has to come in at some point.
Thank you. That's exactly what I'm saying.

People are trying to help her and she refuses it. People give her donations and she turns around and gives them away. And especially since she has 14 kids.... that's kind of unacceptable.

I had a friend complain day in and day out how fat she was, and wouldn't take any kind of diet advice. and then complain about how fat she is.

I commend you for getting help. It's not easy but you're trying. That's my point... you're helping yourself and that's amazing.

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