For those of you who don't know me, I've been visiting 3FC ever since Karen turned me on to it. Obviously it's been a while since I was last here. I originally swung back by to get the dish on Karen's surgery and I was pretty surprised at some of the other things I discovered. Not just surprised, disappointed really.
I really thought that if you folks had issues, you would talk to me about them rather than (in some cases) talk about me. Some of you have talked to me but, in the L&S slamming have failed to include that information.
I had a whole long reply written up that detailed the situation as I saw/see it and the reactions and where I think the disconnects were. None of that matters now - I have no desire to contaminate this community with bickering. I do have a few points to make, however.
Mel--
I'm sorry that you've gotten unpleasant e-mail over this issue. So has Pam. So have I. I supported you very openly on the main board as well as on the CPB board and in our private e-mail exchanges on this topic. I still support your position in that I see no fault with anything you posted; you're as entitled to your opinion as anyone else. As I told you, I don't share your opinion, but I do believe that you have the right to it and the right to express it just as those who disagree have the right to express theirs.
You have been one of the people I respect on LEANandSTRONG and I suspect from the tones here that I won't be seeing as much of you over there. That saddens me. It saddens me that you don't feel welcome at the next lift event. I hope you continue to regard me as a friend and that you will call upon me if you need me.
Mindi--
"I find it interesting that Erik is doing CPB, free probably, and at the same time, being the personal liason between Dr. Connelly and the rest of us who work on BRX. Must be tough to keep the adoring fans, (us), from knowing what the good doc is up to, even from knowing what the **** is actually wrong with him!" I am doing CPB. In that you are correct. I don't appreciate your speculations beyond that, however. If you have a question, why not just ask me? Am I the personal liason between Scott and his public? I'm sure he'll be as amused by that prospect as I am. If I am not telling you what the good doc is up to or what is wrong with him, perhaps it's because he doesn't want it told. Again, if you have questions, ask me and I will give you answers. The answer may be that I can't or won't discuss it, but it's better than rumours.
"no questioning of her program shall be allowed" I thought you and I had developed an understanding yesterday ( http://www.leanandstrong.net/cgi-bin...es/read/394180 ). It seems perhaps I was mistaken. Questioning is perfectly allowed. So is responding to those questions. You can't have one without the other.
Jamie--
"I for one, do not enjoy the **** mentality over at L & S and believe that everyone is entitled to their own opinion, like it or not!" Ouch, **** mentality!? I fully agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion, including the people who are on BOTH sides of whatever the fence d'jour is. That's what being entitled to your opinion costs -- it means that anyone else is entitled to disagree with you.
All--
What I find most awful about these issues is that they polarize people along false boundaries. So many of us are saying the exact same thing but, in defense of one person or another, our reflected belief becomes offensive to us. A week ago, I doubt most of you thought L&S was a **** board, Pam was a self-aggrandizing money hound, the Campers were sheep, etc. In a week the only thing that has changed is that you (not just you good folks, but everyone with an opinion on this) have polarized to opposite ends.
So am I the enemy because Pam is a close personal friend of mine? I am a "Camper" after all. Is Steve? How about Robb? Shannon? These are close personal friends of Pam and supporters of her work. We believe that she isn't in it for the money. We believe that she is trying to do good in the world. We each weighed in very differently in this debate so where do we fall? Do we fall into the Enemy camp? Or are we the Good Guys? Or are we just misled by a Mastermid? Now folks, for the record, THAT is **** mentality.
Lean and Strong is a great board, a place to learn alot of good info. I don't really post on the main boards because I do find the mentality there to be a bit much. **** like, maybe a bit harsh, but not as harsh as some of what was said the other day. I have no opinions about Camp Pam B or about Pam herself because I don't know her so I chose to stay out of the whole conversation. Her transformation is amazing and I give her credit for that. What I find to be a shame about the board is everyone states their opinions, but certain few who don't have the same mentality as everyone else receives hate mails?
I for one mostly lurk and stick to the Body Rx board. I don't need to become involved in all the drama. I am on the boards for one reason, to help out other Body Rx newbies and to be as healthy as I can be. Everything else is a waste of time to me.
Jamie
Personally Erik, I saw no point in asking you anything further about D. C. You treated my last mail as if I were an annoying fan, that had to be brushed off. I didn't and still don't care for that attitude.
As for what's wrong w/the Dr., **** yes its his biz. But he posted regularly on our MSN BRX board and then just dumped us w/out a word. We didn't know if he was dead or alive or just didn't give a crap anymore. And I did ask you, if he was ok and I got an answer that seemed canned and I felt as if I didn't have any right to discuss anything regarding Dr. C or his health. That's a true reaction.
As for our "Understanding" I admit I posted here before we CAME to that understanding. I was pissed off at your most snotty response to my post which basically was nothing more than support for Mel who was and has been as you can see here, attacked miserably.
Whether or not I was wrong or right in my thoughts or feelings, I didn't post them there for obvious reasons but did know that you had the ability to come here and read. So its not like I was hiding anything.
Sorry forgot to add this so had to edit:
I don't know Pam, I don't know about CPB and frankly I don't care about it. I do know Mel and care about how badly she felt yesterday. If CPB is the divine answer to fitness, well great! More power to Pam and her teachings. But Mel didn't deserve what she got simply because she was honest.
My name is Sel and I lurk here and at L&S. I have been lurking, sometimes posting at L&S for over three years and following the BFL thread here for about a year. I am thinking of trying Pam's program to help me end a three month plateau and just wanted to ask a few questions regard CPB. Did any of you give feedback to Pam regarding the problems you experienced with the program and if so what was her reaction? Did she disregard your questions or was she just plain unable to help you? If she was unable to assist you was it because of a lack of knowledge or something else? I hope you don't mind me asking the these questions. It's just that I really like to make an informed decision prior to purchasing any kind of new service.
Mrs. Jim, you are one of my heros. I just love to read your posts here and at L&S.
Sel, thanks so much. You are welcome here anytime of course!
Erik...I notice you didn't address me in your post...but let me try and clarify the situation (hopefully this will answer Sel's question as well). This whole Pam worship thing has been privately festering between myself and other people via email. IMO, giving so much glory to one person demeans the board. I like you a lot and do not wish to hurt you or step on anyone's toes, but (and I don't mean this in a hurtful way in the least) I feel that you are so close to Pam that you might have lost your objectivity where she is concerned.
For me, this came to a head two days ago when I read Tammy Tom & Girls post saying she was feeling like crap (cold and flu symptoms) for three weeks and asked Pam, who told her to ignore it and 'work through it', along with some stuff about a hormonal change, fat dump, etc. IMO Pam is not qualified to give advice like that...any competent personal trainer, I'm sure, would have told her to CALL HER PHYSICIAN and get a checkup. I related (very nicely I think) my own personal experience with ignoring symptoms of physical illness and going to the gym anyway. I ended up making myself worse, missing a week of work and over a week from the gym, and being prescribed antibiotics. Not fun because I really hate being sick
(BTW I note that on the Competitors' Board, Pam is staying out of the gym...because she's feeling ill. A bit ironic IMO).
Which brings this question forward: Just because someone has lost a lot of weight, does that make him/her qualified to sell his/her 'services' to others? I've lost (and more importantly IMO, kept off) 100+ pounds over the past 12 years. Should I start my own website and sell menus? Does losing weight automatically qualify me for this?
You might note that I am a moderator here at 3FC. One of my forums other than this one is the "Buyer Beware" (a.k.a. Fitness Scams) forum. So value for money is very important to me. As per my previous post about Trainers Edge (BTW I note that Mitch, who runs TE, is still very nicely giving the 25% L&S discount to anyone who asks) and my last CPB experience (written about earlier) do I feel like I was given good value for the money I spent? Do I feel like my program was TRULY 'customized' for me in the sense that participants and would-be participants of CPB would think - by receiving a software-generated menu (with inaccurate meal times and nutritional info) and grocery list each week? And more importantly - what about the issue of maintenance? Is the money really worth a temporary weight loss? Is the money worth getting a few mass emails, consisting of rehashed posts from L&S? This is what goes through my mind...and the thing is, until Mel posted this week, no one dared to question the true value of CPB publicly.
The issue here is what I see with so many other weight loss programs. When people are on them, they get gung ho and wouldn't dare to question the merits of the program. I've seen it with Weight Watchers, Jenny Craig, SlimFast, LA Weight Loss, Atkins, and I see it happening here. Anyone who dares question the mertis of the program they are on...well, it's like bashing someone's religion. No one else on the program wants to hear anything bad about 'their' program. That's what happened to Mel - like a virtual stoning (okay, now I'm thinking "Life of Brian" here - "All I said is Jehovah!" ) by all the Pam fans and fanatics, and all the "Campers". As a matter of fact, it happens when someone says something against Bill Phillips or BFL. It's hard to be objective and critical when you're IN the program. I guess I was one of those sheep last year. Hindsight I suppose.
For me...well...I guess L&S is just becoming too focused on one person...Pam. I know she is bringing a lot of exposure to the board, which I suppose is a good thing. But for a lot of people, perhaps what you'd call 'the silent majority', this focus on one person is changing L&S...and not for the better IMO.
Bottom line - I thought the main reason we were all in this was for our HEALTH. Is it really healthy to be obsessing about food all the time? Is it healthy to have days where you just feel like crap just to try and get into a smaller pants size - when you're already in the single digits? Is it healthy or ethical for someone who purports to be a personal trainer who doesn't have an MD after their name to "just work through" their cold and flu symptoms rather than seeing a doctor - and this through emails rather than seeing her in person? IMO, I don't think so...health and fitness to me does not equate perpetrating eating disorders...but learning HEALTHY LIFESTYLE CHANGES that can be maintained permanently.
I'll carry this to e-mail, which you should feel free to share with one another if you wish. I don't want to see yet another board choked with this particular drama. :-)
Thank you Erik, that's gracious of you to offer email but I guess I've said what I needed to and frankly if there's more to be said, I believe it should be posted so everyone can read it. I think that's where the problems begin, so I'd prefer to keep things on the board.
Erik, I do wish you would discuss some of these points here as I value your input. And aren't you the one who wants to be open about this? This is neutral ground and you need not worry about anyone here sending nasty private messages
Quote:
I thought the main reason we were all in this was for our HEALTH
I'd like to give my thoughts on this, and found Karen's post to be very reflective of my own feelings for the most part, especially regarding the advice Tammy was given.
In an earlier post, I compared Leanness Lifestyle and CPB. Disclaimer: I have done neither program and rely only on what I hear from those who have, both good and bad opinions. But they seem quite similar; lots of cardio, calories restricted, calories cycling, private board involving a fee.
But... every time that program comes up, it is dismissed as nothing but a muscle burner. As is *any* product that is considered to be unhealthy or a waste of money. So why is CPB so zealously defended? It cannot be rationally discussed without so many women taking it as a personal insult to Pam, her program and by extension, themselves. *That* is what I see as the problem.
Pasted from e-mail, the only one I had gotten around to so far :-)
Mindi,
I wanted to see what the e-mail was that got you so offended and I really
don't understand why you felt it was a canned response. Scott has told
different people varying levels of personal info. Not knowing what he has
told whom, I tend to reply to inquiries about him very generally. I speak
to him sometimes a few times a week, sometimes not for a month. I really
don't know the all people he does or doesn't communicate with or all of the
communities he does or doesn't contribute to. I know that you had a MSN
community that he was taking part in for a while. I do see how my "tell him
you asked" could have given you the liaison impression, now that I look at
it from that perspective.
I am, however, sorry that my replies to you seem to rub you the wrong way.
Neither this e-mail nor my reply re: Mel was intended to be dismissive or
snotty or negative at all. It was one attempt of many to discuss that
double-edge of people wanting to be able to say what they want. I agree
that they should, "they" including both sides of any argument. That was my
main point there.
I am also concerned about the way Mel feels - why else would I still be
discussing this? As for CPB - that's not what is at the core of this
issue, I think. I've had success at it, many people have. Some people
haven't. I don't think it's the holy grail of fitness -- I don't think that
such a thing exists. I did and still do welcome people's honest feedback on
all of the plan we discuss at L&S. I can't control the way Pam's supporters
react on the boards, much less in e-mail. Nor should I.
Now, given our track record this e-mail may come across as negative. I urge
you to try not to see it that way; that's not the way it is intended. These
issues matter to me, which is why I'm still discussing them. The way people
interact matters to me, which is why I am grappling to understand what I see
as being a double standard about people being encouraged to speak out.
Originally posted by Jamie (fitnessqueen) Lean and Strong is a great board, a place to learn alot of good info. I don't really post on the main boards because I do find the mentality there to be a bit much. **** like, maybe a bit harsh, but not as harsh as some of what was said the other day. I have no opinions about Camp Pam B or about Pam herself because I don't know her so I chose to stay out of the whole conversation. Her transformation is amazing and I give her credit for that. What I find to be a shame about the board is everyone states their opinions, but certain few who don't have the same mentality as everyone else receives hate mails?
I for one mostly lurk and stick to the Body Rx board. I don't need to become involved in all the drama. I am on the boards for one reason, to help out other Body Rx newbies and to be as healthy as I can be. Everything else is a waste of time to me.
Jamie
Did you guys see my post "What is the Main Board?" You're using the BRx board at L&S for exactly what it is intended. Maybe where my disconnect is in trying to find a solution to this problem, which pops up from time to time. As I said over there, I am welcome to suggestions on how I can encourage respectful relations without censoring anyone who isn't a troll.
Your post is a long one and I want to give it the time in response that it merits so I'll endeavor to come back to it with points. :-) I will ask this for now, if you were concerned about what you see as a change at L&S, why not address it with me? Why take it to a private group where I don't learn of it until after a big blow up? I can't act on, address, or plan for things I don't know about.
Ooohhh … back from doing legs. Today was the first time that I have done squats since before my surgery on January 17 and it hurt soooo goooood. I bought myself one of those pads that goes around the bar because the ones at the gym are either missing or ripped up. It made the bar so much more comfortable (‘cause I don’t have a lot of padding back there!). Then hack squats, walking lunges, stiff-legged dead lifts, and one-leg calf raises. I get a little frustrated because I can’t do the amount of weight that I did pre-surgery, but I’m trying to be patient.
Karen, your idea for using the journals for goals is terrific, so I went ahead and did mine. It really helps me to be publicly accountable. It's too easy to rationalize bad actions to myself but if I know that I would have to post “cookie binge” or “ice cream insanity” in Fitday for the world to see, I probably won’t do it. It’s like the “secret eating” that I did for so many years — it doesn’t really happen if no one sees you do it, late at night, right? Like no one could see my hips and butt???
Mindi — I did mostly litigation, with some ERISA and tax work. Hubby is also a lawyer and we decided that someone needed to be home with the kids, since we both were working 80 hour weeks pre-children (and he still does). I can’t say that I miss it too much. My favorite part of law was the research and writing, not people calling me on the phone and yelling. Give me a problem to solve and send me to the library and I am happy.
Shelby — re miniblinds: picture this scenario — I take the blinds down to soak them in the tub with a squirt of dish soap. Brilliant idea — turn on whirlpool jets in the tub to really get those suckers clean. Return to the bathroom in 10 minutes to a scene from “I Love Lucy” — four feet of bubbles pouring from the tub and out the door. I actually did this last Sunday.
Mel — I know the mile markers of every rest stop on the PA Turnpike! I drove it to law school in Philadelphia for three years and then there were all the summer trips to the Jersey shore. Hate those mountains in the winter. My daughter is at Kenyon College in Ohio, so I do the Ohio drive now also. If you ever want to stop by beautiful Pittsburgh, let me know. I’ll take you to my gym, where they think *I* have strong legs — and I can’t even remotely approach the kind of weight that you do!!! I think they’d build a statue of you or retire a squat rack or something.
Lana — 6:30 is great — want to bring the salad? Now, about your plastic surgery questions — I don’t mind talking about it in the least. I was so relieved when I found out that the excess skin could NOT be dieted and exercised away because I felt like I was a failure for not tightening up — that I was to blame for not working out hard enough or dieting enough or SOMETHING. Come to find out, as I researched, that almost everyone who loses a great deal of weight has some skin issues. So I feel quite comfortable with my decision to have the surgery and would be happy to answer any questions. Weight and body fat: pre-surgery (almost seven weeks ago) I was 135# and 12.5% BF. Right now I am 134 or so and 14% BF, so I haven’t lost any weight and my BF is a little higher. BUT I am still swollen — my waist is 3” bigger and my legs are swollen and the doc says there is internal fluid that will take a while more to go away. So I don’t know what my true weight is — maybe a few pounds lighter. And the swelling may be affecting the caliper readings. Of course, I asked before the surgery if I’d lose pounds and the doctor said probably not more than a few pounds because, on me, he was only removing skin (he called it “dry skin” because they drain it back into your body in the OR before removing it) (sorry if this is gross). He said when you hear of the various celebrities (like Carnie Wilson) who lose 15 pounds or more when having this kind of surgery, it is because they are also removing FAT along with skin and, at 12.5% BF, I didn’t have any fat that needed to go. BTW, many of the WLS folks who have this done, he said, are still quite heavy — 200++ pounds — so there’s a lot of fat left that can be removed along with the skin. But then he said that I would definitely lose inches and I can tell that is true because, even in my swollen state, my pants are looser through the hips and thighs than they had been. So it will be exciting to see the changes over the next few months — I think of it as coming out of my cocoon — perhaps there will be a butterfly there.
I hope more folks join in their own personal Bootcamps. I like reading others’ goals because it helps me set mine higher.
Meg
Yikes -- I apologize -- my post really shows up in an inopportune time and place and interrupts a valuable discussion. Sorry -- bad timing on my part.
Our lines are getting crossed. I got your e-mail and I agree that the BRx stuff is a side topic that has less to do with this issue and more to do with you and I miscommunicating with each other. I'm glad it's cleared up (it is, isn't it?) and I'll send your reply back to you if you like so you can post the parts you want to.
Hello ladies!
You are welcome here anytime of course!
) by all the Pam fans and fanatics, and all the "Campers". As a matter of fact, it happens when someone says something against Bill Phillips or BFL. It's hard to be objective and critical when you're IN the program. I guess I was one of those sheep last year. Hindsight I suppose.
