Morning all
Stayed true till 6 yesterday. Tonight going shopping yeah So will have more choices on hand and may be able to get whole days in of plant based.
Thanks for the links went and read the article and looked at the recipes this morning.
Been talking with my son, who has lost 40lbs in less then 3 months. He has been eating plant based because he had a part-time job and could not afford food other then veggies and fruit on sale and noodles. He does use a whey protein powder several times a day as he lifts weights and works out 6 days a week. Well he just got full time, and still planes on eating plant base (good for him). Any hoo We were talking about putting in a big garden this year. Haven't done that in awhile and really looking forward to it.
Normally I only planted the tomatoes, cucumbers in years past, but this year would like to try a lot of stuff. should be pretty neat.
Unna You summed up my thoughts nicely and I totally agree. At this time I think both sides make a good argument but there is not a clear path for anyone person to follow. One thing that is agreed I think on both point of views is processed foods. If I can eat more plant based and whole no processed then I know I well feel better
surfnmom: I think it is interesting to examine both diets. Where I think the extremists go wrong is:
Vegan: claiming even organic/wild meat and dairy is toxic.
Paleolithic: claiming wheat, soy, corn are the downfall of mankind's diet.
If you decide to abstain from eating meat, it would make more sense for one to do so out of ethical reasons or because of the potentially harmful hormones and antibiotics - not because humans "were not really designed to eat meat and dairy." I mean, we have civilizations built on the consumption of meat and dairy.
IndiBlue: I was totally telling someone about your 1x a week housekeeper and her cooking with butter instead of oil! I think that is SO funny! I also love how you have a housekeeper that comes in and cooks too - only in India is that possible...
Today I had an amazing run - maybe all the fruits and veggies are helping? I dunno.
On the downside, I think I've been eating too much citrus (mango or tangerine). My lips take on a different, bumpy texture on the sides.... definitely a minor allergy. My bloating is still there, but starting to subside.
If you decide to abstain from eating meat, it would make more sense for one to do so out of ethical reasons or because of the potentially harmful hormones and antibiotics - not because humans "were not really designed to eat meat and dairy." I mean, we have civilizations built on the consumption of meat and dairy.
I don't believe I'm an extremist, and speaking as a meat eater who would eat far more meat if I thought it was not harmful, I'm afraid I don't agree with this. After reading, listening to, and watching many sources the past few months, I have very sadly come to believe that eating meat and dairy, even from natural sources, are harmful to human health over time. Believe me, I have greatly resisted coming to this conclusion.
The standard western diet has meat and dairy at the center, accompanied by masses of processed foods and fats. And look at the result. Americans are fatter than ever, and getting fatter. There is massive heart disease, cancers, and diabetes is close to epidemic. And wherever the western diet is introduced and embraced, native peoples lose their health and the diseases of the west increase greatly.
Of course every discussion has two sides, and anyone can believe and do what they wish. For myself however, still a died-in-the-wool meat-seeker, I don't want this to be true, but I believe it is.
If I could, if I thought straight vegan food tasted even half-way decent, I would be a straight vegan for health reasons. But I've lived forever loving the taste of meat, so I doubt I'll ever be able to totally embrace it.
If I had a health condition of significance, I would however work even harder at giving up my meat ba-ba. I suppose many would think the extra weight I do would qualify.
But I do the best I can and have reduced meat consumption and all dairy drastically. As a result of what I have been able to do, I'm very pleased with the results I've experienced, and in far more ways than weight loss. But I know I gain only partial benefit because I am able to only partially eat the way I believe is optimal.
To a certain degree I don't believe our opinions are so different. My conclusion that meat and dairy are not "toxic" only applies if people eat the meat and dairy in moderation.
Before factory farming, far less meat and dairy was available. We are now consuming WAY too much - some sort of animal product at every meal. I completely agree with you insofar as I also believe the western diet's current "normal" consumption of meat and dairy is outrageous and thus necessarily unhealthy.
The viewpoint I'm referring to, that I often read, is people confessing all of their problems are cured with the elimination of toxic animal products. In the end, they fail to take into consideration their increase in healthy plant sources.
Anyway, the factory farming industry, particularly in America, makes me cringe. That terribly harmful amounts of hormones and antibiotics are given to the animals, even the animal feed is detestable and of course their living conditions are unlivable .... eek. No, I really don't think that is "healthy".
I do think the western diet could stand more staples such as seaweed and quinoa, for example, but I still think one can live healthily while eating a very moderate amount of animal products.
Ultimately, vegans do have a super argument for why people should eliminate products based on ethical reasons alone: that animal suffering is too great and inhumane.
The standard western diet has meat and dairy at the center, accompanied by masses of processed foods and fats. And look at the result. Americans are fatter than ever, and getting fatter. There is massive heart disease, cancers, and diabetes is close to epidemic. And wherever the western diet is introduced and embraced, native peoples lose their health and the diseases of the west increase greatly.
But the Western diet has had meat and dairy at the center for centuries, and only in the past thirty or so years have obesity rates been rising.
There are a number of cultures that also place meat and dairy at the center of their diets- the one with which I am most familiar are the various Himalayan ones- Tibetan, Bhutanese, etc. Large parts of the region are above skyline and thus vegetation does not grow. There are very little vegetables and fruits in the diets of Tibetans and Bhutanese. In Tibet, yak butter and animal meat are the staples. In Bhutan, it's ema datse (cheese with chilis) and rice, though in non-Buddhist parts its very yak meat-heavy.
And I'm not even sure all we can say that obesity rates are rising in all of the West. I had a terrible time when I was in Serbia because all of the meals were based around meats, cheese, and bread. As a vegetarian I had a very difficult time finding vegetables and had to eat cheese and bread for most meals. Yet women there are extraordinarily tall and thin. It was astonishing- walking in in the streets of Belgrade feels like walking through a high end photoshoot.
I don't think a meat-and-dairy diet is necessarily a "bad" one- it's certainly not new, or unique to the West.
I think rather the problem is the processed foods: colas, fast food, packaged junk food. That's what I would consider the modern Western (American) diet, and the cause for obesity, diabetes, and heart disease rates skyrocketing. It's certainly the case in India, where the centuries-old diet of huge amount of fats (ghee, oil), dairy (paneer), and simple carbs (white rice, flat breads) aren't the cause for the very recent rise in obesity and diabetes- it's the introduction of fast food and junk food in the last twenty years.
Michael Pollan talks a lot about this issue in In Defense of Food. He cites studies that found in the world that ate indigenous diets, regardless of the diet-- whether it's simple carb-based such as in Asia, meat/dairy based such as in cold mountainous cultures-- health indicators and obesity rates were in check. It's only in places where people no longer eat "food" but rather processed junk for most of their calories do these numbers start to skyrocket out of control.
I happened upon some terrific lettuce two days back. Spent half an hour washing it and made a huge salad with walnuts, frozen blackberries and their juice poured on top. I had a second serving of the lettuce yesterday for dinner, topped with roasted corn and diced tomatoes. I love salad fixins' that don't need a separate dressing.
I also made black-eyed pea dip. It's a southern tradition for New Years! Black-eyed peas, diced peppers, and diced jalapenos tossed with olive oil and italian herbs. Yum. The jalapenos really make the dish. I ate about 2 cups of it so hopefully a good year is in store ^_^
Yum! Indiblue that dip sounds delicious! I am going to try it!
My husband and I are trying to eat a totally plant based dinner. It used to be that the last meal of the day was the largest because I like to cook and neither of us is awesome at eating balanced during the day.
Tonight we had green smoothies with tons of spinach and frozen fruit with a fresh banana. Then I pan steamed green beans in olive oil, garlic, ginger and a bit of soy. Delicious.
Now I just have to work on the alcohol and dairy consumption. I just LOVE cheese. Any links or resources that could help me out with this?
Christinenn, here is a recipe similar to the one I used. I omitted the Italian dressing and tossed in olive oil and herbs instead. Also, I don't have avocados here so I omitted http://southernfood.about.com/od/bla...r/bl30418f.htm
Re. cheese: maybe buy higher quality/more expensive cheese so you'll use it in moderation. Not only will it taste better but you'll be more likely to savor it so that it lasts a while. Just a thought!
Yesterday was pretty good. I made Thai green curry with veggies and tofu for lunch. Finished the last of the bean dip for a snack and then for dinner had a salad with my fiance's refried pinto beans (minus the fry, they're low-oil) and lettuce and onion and cilantro on top.
Happy New Year everyone! It's been a fun weekend here. Didn't do too much damage fortunately. Glad the holidays are finally over!
As to the harmful nature of animal protein, it's been chronicled in The China Study, perhaps the main source from which the Drs Fuhrman and McDougall came to believe eliminating it all from one's diet is more healthful. And the people actually who have reversed various heart conditions and diabetes bear testimony to it. Besides saying this, I honestly have no interest in further discussing it. I like my meat, and will continue to eat it in greatly reduced amounts, even though I believe I'd be better off without it. No one else has to agree.
That said, belief in one's own chosen diet and the rational behind it seems to be approaching the status of religion and politics - it's perhaps better to not discuss the nuts and bolts of it, but to just eat the way that is best for each of us while offering mutual support of that effort.
I'm quite looking forward to the coming year.
I really like this way of eating even though I have not lost as much weight as I would have liked the past few months. But I really started in order to achieve better health. And I'm feeling that happening in several ways. The noticable initial weight loss was just an unexpected bonus, but I don't want that to divert my attention from my main goal and get side-tracked. I am curious what the coming year will bring. I hope it will be as good as I think.
I apologize if my post came off as unsupportive, or was approaching that. I have spent much of my adult life outside of the West and am thus very interested on discussions of culture and food. The Tibetan or Serbian diet is not how I choose to eat, but different strokes for different folks.
I enjoy learning about and discussing rationals on different ways of eating. It helps inform my ever-changing understanding of nutrition. I hadn't even heard of the China Study until this thread. But if there's concerns that doing so becomes divisive, I can certainly reserve such discussions for elsewhere
jansan: I think it is a super interesting discussion that should be kept open. I mean, we don't have to talk about it all the time- but it is certainly worth talking about sometimes
indiblue: I found your stories of Tibetan, Bhutanese, and Serbs' diets intriguing - thanks for sharing!
I think eating does have a moral component. We aren't simple animals that eat whatever is available. Humans actually have to ability to reflect on what they eat and make choices about what they want to eat in the future. Anytime choices are involved, morality is also necessarily involved.
I also have reduced my consumption of animal products as much as I can. To be honest, I am super sceptical of vitamins in pill form. For example, a simple iron supplement can reak havoc on your liver. I do make it a point to eat animal products every so often to avoid taking supplements.
The China Study is an interesting publication. I don't disagree with the professor who wrote it. I also don't wholly agree with how he presents the "objective" information. His findings are presented in a way that asserts an extremely strong subjective agenda. His message has, unfortunately, not been taken as seriously as it could have been by others in academia because of the one-sided way he presents it.
But, as I am part-utilitarian: if his publication helps others eat more plants, then our overall environment and health will benefit, and less animals will suffer. So, I don't really have any interest in critiquing his work.
Anyway, I'm lazy right now because I need to save my brain power for a long oral exam I have coming at the end of January. Last one though! I'll be free to do as I please soon.
I tried to really change things up yesterday. Normally, I look forward to my large-ish, comforting, evening meal. Yesterday evening around 7:30pm, I went jogging for an hour, then I came home and had a big smoothie with kale, blueberries, flax seed oil, banana, and a touch of soy.
No "official" dinner.
It felt really refreshing to drink a smoothie after a long jog.... but it was hard to not actually eat anything. My body was like "HEY! Where's the salad? Where's the potatoes??" - thoroughly confused.
In addition to more fruits and veggies, I'm also trying to incorporate more oatmeal in my diet. I really like the way they make me feel.
One more thing about the cheese: if I were you I'd buy a nice, hard parmesan. It is surprisingly the healthiest of all the cheeses (so i've heard). You can grate it over anything for a nice cheese flavor. It might be a sparing way to feed your cheese addiction!
I think it is a super interesting discussion that should be kept open. I mean, we don't have to talk about it all the time- but it is certainly worth talking about sometimes
I have no problem with anyone keeping any discussion open. I just don't have a great deal of interest in it at the moment. I've read enough papers to know there can be many seeming conflicts and exceptions, esp when the data is hard to gather or on the soft side. Hence many conclusions regarding 'what is best' leave a lot of room for individual interpretation - which we all will do anyway.
With respect to food/eating, I've never been much of a 'diet shopper' much less 'diet follower', but through a stroke of luck (hopefully good luck) I found what I am currently doing, and that's what I am concentrating on at the moment.
Eating this way is not always easy, and for me, committment without too many variables is important for long-term success, at least in these beginning months. Whether I am able to stay with this over the months and years to come, I don't know. I hope so. But this is the first-ever 'diet/way of eating' that has hit a deep chord of belief with me. And right now I am more in the mechanical rather than phylosophical phase of it.
jansan it sounds like you are in a really good place right now.
Enjoyed Indian food out with friends last night. We ate, family state, some sort of creamed paneer/spinach dish, chole (channa masala in the US), a mushroom dish, and I had some of the carnivores' Goan fish curry for a bit of protein.
I love family-style eating and I really wish we did more of it in the US. I can never decide on just one dish... and tasting a few spoonfuls of four or five dishes is just much more fun!
Lunch yesterday was a big salad with frozen blackberries (in their juice), a bit of goat cheese, and almonds.
We went to a dinner party of a local friend, who surprisingly had lots of vegetable dishes and fresh veggies. In addition to Indian staples of aloo mutter (pea potato curry) and biryani with mirch ka salan (rice with pepper curry) she served a cold pea-carrot-cucumber-apple salad that I filled up half my plate with. My tummy this morning is feeling good as a result, which usually doesn't happen after an Indian dinner out!
As we had talked about a few post back, the mirch ka salan had a thick layer of golden oil on the top of it. I spent a good minute fishing out the peppers and a tiny bit of curry around the oil... ended up with a bit anyway, but definitely not as much as the other guests who piled heaping portions of the dish on their plate. Amazing how much oil is in this diet.
