[LLV]

Originally Posted by Smilla

I'm not attacking you, but what I get from this post is that you feel that your entire worth as a human being is based on your ability to attract men and attention from men. Don't you think you have a higher purpose in life?

That, honey, is a very long story. One that I don't really want to go into because I DON'T want sympathy from people. Let's just say I've had a battle in my head since I was 12 years old and it hasn't been an easy one. Being 'beautiful' was, yes, my way of feeling good about myself. Because I never felt good about myself before. That was all I had. That was mine that nobody could take away from me... except myself.

I'm better now at accepting myself as a person, for who and what I am. But it's been very difficult.

Let's just say that at the time, my looks and what tiny bit of self-confidence I was able to gain by busting my butt to look better on the outside (because I knew I was junk on the inside) was what kept me from losing my mind.

Thank you for your kind words

[Jayde]

Originally Posted by LLV

Do I feel as attractive as I used to? Nope. And BECAUSE I don't feel attractive anymore, it's possible men DO still look at me, I just don't notice. Because I can't see why anyone would. Even my husband said once that when we all went out one night he noticed guys looking at me. And I said, "That's crazy, nobody's interested in me."

I don't think I've really considered myself attractive or unattractive based on my appeal to men. Obviously I am not including my husband here because if he was ever seriously not attracted to me I would feel quite differently.

Even at my highest weight (215) though I felt fat and looked fat and was fat I still felt pretty. I was and am utterly disgusted with myself for what I have done to come to this weight, but I can say I felt and still feel pretty. On the inside and the outside.

After reading your post (quoted above) I can see that your sense of beauty is not as dependent on how others percieve you as I initially thought. It is how you feel about you.

LLV, losing weight, beautifying ourselves on the outside will not make us beautiful if we don't do renovations on the inside as well. Your honesty and ability to take a look makes me think that you are going to be fine.

As Mary Tyler Moore might say, "You're going to make it after all!"

[RobertW]

t will be interesting, as I lose weight, to see how people treat me differently. I've been considered "smart" by so many people for so long. I assumed it was because I had a degree in mathematics, but sometimes I wonder if it's because they can't attribute "cute" or "sexy" to me.

Supposedly, the more attractive you are, the less men listen to what you have to say.



I bet Big HeatherD doesn't have any problem with unwanted attention from Men, and she isn't fat at all. There must be lots of strategies for dealing with this problem that don't involve overeating.

I don't think I've really considered myself attractive or unattractive based on my appeal to men.

If you mean beautiful rather than attractive you are definitely right. You can be beautiful without being sexy and vice versa.

[madscientist]

Originally Posted by LLV

That, honey, is a very long story. One that I don't really want to go into because I DON'T want sympathy from people. Let's just say I've had a battle in my head since I was 12 years old and it hasn't been an easy one. Being 'beautiful' was, yes, my way of feeling good about myself. Because I never felt good about myself before. That was all I had. That was mine that nobody could take away from me... except myself.

I'm better now at accepting myself as a person, for who and what I am. But it's been very difficult.

Let's just say that at the time, my looks and what tiny bit of self-confidence I was able to gain by busting my butt to look better on the outside (because I knew I was junk on the inside) was what kept me from losing my mind.

Thank you for your kind words

You also own your own personality, and you own your own talents and you own your own skills. They are all just as much a part of you, and just as much make up YOU as your body does. When someone with a nice body and pretty face walks into a room, sure she gets looked at. But when someone with charm and charisma and a positive, outgoing attitude walks into the room everyone greets her like they haven't gotten to see her in years because basically everyone knows her or feels like they want to know her. And yes, sometime those women are large women. I'd rather people love and admire me because I'm one awesome being than just want to look at me. One is everlasting and one is fleeting. That fleeting one, you will forever be chasing because the attention will never be enough and as you get older, considering older is not valued in this society, you'll naturally get less attention. What will you have to rely on then? I don't how charismatic I am, but I have people who love me and love to see me. I can capture people with stories about what I've done and what I've seen and experienced. Likewise, people always like good musicians who can break into song whenever. No one cares that there is a 300lb body behind that guitar and that voice.

I understand you have issues with self confidence. I also understand the need to derive feeling good with how much attention men give you. I just think it's too superficial to ever truly meet your needs and I personally derive my good feelings on my accomplishments in life because my body is just my body and it is going to age and fade away -- I just want to lose weight now so I can enjoy it for my OWN pleasures, like mountain climbing and long hikes and being able to survive hot days without dying from the excess insulation and so that I don't have major health complications when I'm older.

Sure it hurts when people are mean about my body... but why on earth would I want someone like that in my life?? It's my sign to MOVE ON because they're idiots. That use to be a minor motivation to stay overweight, it weeds out the jerks. But I've developed a pretty darn good radar for people and I don't need it for that anymore. Consider developing yourself, your spirit, your personality, letting our talents flourish and just watch as people give you good attention because they appreciate you as a human being. Maybe then you won't rely so much on looks to get what you need from others and you can start living more for you. I like to see people who're fully developed in mind, body and spirit and live full lives in all three areas. I think it's a happy place to be and I also think it's never too late and nothing is ever ruined or gone forever unless you say it is. Personally, I say "never say never." There's always hope. This comes from someone who was abused for 18 years and some decade ago tried multiple suicides because I once thought there was no hope for me. My how things have changed.

[madscientist]

Originally Posted by Jayde

Even at my highest weight (215) though I felt fat and looked fat and was fat I still felt pretty.

I'm the same way. Even at my highest weight I'd look in the mirror and see a pretty and cool woman staring back at me. Of course I'd make the mistake of pinching all my fat and making "UGH" types noises. But I started to learn that pinching fat makes it mad so I stopped. It's there, I don't need to pinch it or comment on it to know that. It's part of me now, but it won't always be. However, I think I'll always have the pretty face and pretty personality (even if I can be a ***** sometimes )

If I let society and men dictate to me what pretty means, I'd go insane. I'd have no self-esteem and I'd end up like all these anorexic coked out Hollywood girls. Hardly part of my aspirations. So, screw 'em. I define me, not them. I have my days where I wish I was someone else, everyone does. I accept that as part of the human experience to sometimes feel really crappy about myself and try to not dwell on that.

I'm sure everyone knows how I feel about attention from men, that doesn't need to be repeated. But it partially boils down to not needing them to validate me as a good, beautiful human being. The only validation that counts is my own. If I can validate me, I will never need anyone else to and my self-esteem and self-worth will NEVER have to hinge on or be controlled by another person.

[madscientist]

Originally Posted by Misti in Seattle

Well I disagree. In the ideal world that may be true... but in the real world women who go out in public half dressed ARE going to get that type of attention, like it or not. I didn't say they should be... I said they will be. That's just reality.

My standards may be "archaic" by YOUR standards and modern society. Interesting when common decency and modesty is considered "archaic" and we have to be almost "afraid" to say it!! Well, I'll stick with my standards, thanks, politically correct or not. Women may think they have a "right" to be treated with respect no matter how they act or dress... but in the real world "ain't gonna happen."

And note I did NOT "defend" crude behavior by men or anyone else, or not treating someone in a respectful manner. But there are a whole lot of rude, crude people out there and if we think going out with half of our bodies showing is not going to bring out that reaction in a large portion of the male population, we are kidding ourselves.

Along with "rights" come responsibilities... "freedom" does not mean "license" to do whatever we want with no consequences. Not in the real world, it doesn't.

So I'll stick with some standards of modesty and take the criticism.

Thing is, we're talking about an outfit here. We aren't saying that someone done something wrong (although I get the feeling that is implied that she is wrong or bad for wearing something revealing and that is certainly a large part of the problem) and is now paying for it. To say there are consequences to women dressing a certain way is basically saying that if a woman goes out dressed a certain way, she shouldn't complain when she ends up raped or sexually harrassed. I don't see how victim blaming is helping women at all. It perpetuates a sexist attitude that women deserve it if I dress a certain way, act a certain way, etc. It may be "the real world" for that happen, but attitudes aren't changed because people continue to buy into it, perpetuate it and sit complacently when it happens. It changes when people stand up and say, "Hey, I am not accepting this abuse anymore."

I think it's very societal. Women in Europe dress how they like and while they do get some attention, it's not the catcalls and hollers women get here. I got attention in Europe and you know what? It was kinda cool. They complimented me on my eyes, on my smile in a polite manner. They don't tell me "Hey nice t*ts, babe!" like the men in America. They were considerate of my space and their choice of words. They let ME make the next move and if I wanted them to go away they usually said in the native language, "Have a lovely afternoon, madam" flashed me a smile, and that was that. No fighting them off because the word "no" doesn't have a meaning to them because unlike in this culture, they don't feel entitled to a woman because she's there and looks hot. These cultures are not shy about nudity and often have nude or topless beaches and no real laws about public nudity. Nudity can be found anywhere and it's generally not considered to be bad or wrong so there is no stigma attached to it, as the body is a natural thing to them. Yet, even with all their outright nakedness and brazen sexuality, their instances of sexual assault and harrassment are FAR lower than that of America. Why?

It's all in the ATTITUDES that we as a society perpetuate.

And I'm sorry, but to continue saying "she's got to expect to be abused if she dresses like that" DOES in fact help keep that attitude going. You may like your modesty and that's fine. No one said you have to dress like Britney Spears, circa 2003. Feel free to wear head to toe covering if that is your thing. But to say another woman needs to be modest by your standards "or else" just helps the men keep on abusing us because it validates their sexist attitudes that has been passed on from generation to generation. To see women telling each other that they're "asking for it" and telling them that they are sluts and whores, only gives the men permission AND ammunition to do it to us too. It gives them license to repeat the "she was asking for it, what with that short skirt of hers!" when they are arrested for rape or sexual harrassment.

There is this serious madonna/whore complex that American women get faced with. You dress modest, you're a "good" girl. You wear something revealing, you're a "bad" girl and so therefore you must be a slut who wants it. And we all know that from a loose girl like that, "no" means "yes" and they probably aren't virgins anyway so what's the difference?

See how it all snowballs and how all these attitudes tie into each other?

I ask you to consider reading "My short skirt" by Eve Ensler. It's a short poem that describes exactly how I and many other progessive women feel on the issue. Here is a link: http://www.umich.edu/~vday/shortskit.htm

[LLV]

Originally Posted by Misti in Seattle

But there are a whole lot of rude, crude people out there

Well that's THEIR problem... not mine.

If I see a half-naked man walking down the street, am I gonna look? Sure. I'll look if I see an attractive FULLY dressed man. But with the half-naked man, just because he isn't wearing any clothes, will I treat him with less respect? Of course not. Nor would I have the right to just because he isn't wearing much.

So if I treat this guy like a piece of meat simply because he isn't fully clothed, I'm the one with the problem, not him.

[LLV]

And thank you, madscientist and Jayde for the kind and positive words. You're both so sweet

[aphil]

You ladies are making my head spin...

Rather than having to continue to edit posts and the same points being hashed out over and over and over again, I am just going to close this topic. I think everyone's points have been made repeatedly-and there really isn't anywhere for this to go. I am not even going to chime in my opinion on this topic...lest the thread get 7 pages longer.



Aphil