I see what you are saying.... I really do.... BUT, it is never ever ever ok to assume that a woman should be subjected to obnoxious and sometimes disgusting behavior simply because she dresses a certain way.
Well I disagree. In the ideal world that may be true... but in the real world women who go out in public half dressed ARE going to get that type of attention, like it or not. I didn't say they should be... I said they will be. That's just reality.
My standards may be "archaic" by YOUR standards and modern society. Interesting when common decency and modesty is considered "archaic" and we have to be almost "afraid" to say it!! Well, I'll stick with my standards, thanks, politically correct or not. Women may think they have a "right" to be treated with respect no matter how they act or dress... but in the real world "ain't gonna happen."
And note I did NOT "defend" crude behavior by men or anyone else, or not treating someone in a respectful manner. But there are a whole lot of rude, crude people out there and if we think going out with half of our bodies showing is not going to bring out that reaction in a large portion of the male population, we are kidding ourselves.
Along with "rights" come responsibilities... "freedom" does not mean "license" to do whatever we want with no consequences. Not in the real world, it doesn't.
So I'll stick with some standards of modesty and take the criticism.
Last edited by Misti in Seattle; 05-16-2006 at 08:53 AM.
I see what you are saying.... I really do.... BUT, it is never ever ever ok to assume that a woman should be subjected to obnoxious and sometimes disgusting behavior simply because she dresses a certain way.
I totally agree with this, but in a way I see Misti's point as well. I mean, if you waltz around in skintight mini dresses the way I used to do, yeah, men are gonna look. You have to expect it. You're gonna get the attention.
However, because they may be wearing something a little risky, it doesn't mean guys have to be pigs.
This is the typical argument that a woman whose been hassled by men 'deserved' it because of the clothes she was wearing.
Sure I enjoyed the attention from men. What woman doesn't like to turn heads when she walks into a room? I used to walk into the club and almost every single male eye (and most of the women) was on me. Did that make me feel good? I'd be a liar if I said it didn't. But did I always dress that way simply to attract men and no other reason? No. I did it because it made me feel GOOD about myself.
But none of the posters who are saying that they don't like the attention are claiming to dress like common streetwalkers. In fact, this whole argument is based on the theory that some women gain weight to make themselves less appealing to men.
I can't really describe it all that articulately, but I have a sixth sense regarding creepy vs. non-creepy attention from men. For example, I used to live in a drug and crime infested part of the city, where most people you see are crackheads or prostitutes or bums. As I was leaving my apartment an old smelly crackhead, who I thought was going to ask me for money, exclaimed as I was passing, "WOOOOOOOOO WEEEEEEE Honey! You sho is pretty!" I can't explain it, but even though he was with his buddies, it gave me a smile. I didn't feel vulnerable or violated. On the other hand, I have been in a courtroom working with an attorney and had them- under the judges nose- come on to me in a way that made me feel like a piece of expendable garbage to be used at his disposal.
The point: When I was leaving my house that day, I looked good. I was casual, but I looked good. When I was in court, I had on no makeup and every inch of my body was covered up. My responses from men had absolutely nothing to do with what I was wearing. It rarely does. I think some women who feel victimized by this behavior exhude a vulnerablity and I think it's the same vulnerability as women who dress in tube tops and miniskirts and spiked heels- it's to ultimately hide and protect themselves (on the inside).
And some men can smell it like a dog on a hunt- and that's scary.
It is also sad when our weight defines how we feel about ourselves in the beauty department.
And to add something to this, yes, I think weight plays a HUGE part in how we feel about ourselves in the beauty department. Should I have settled at 200 pounds and tried to convince myself I was still attractive? No way that would happen.
There may be a FEW women out there who feel they're beautiful no matter what weight, but I can't imagine there are very many. I watched a show once where these heavy women spoke about how they've learned to "accept" themselves and just go through life being overweight and how much they liked themselves anyway. As the show went deeper and these women became more open and started to fess up, all three of them said, "No, I'm not really completely happy with myself, I don't like being fat."
I'm not saying there aren't any women that can't be happy with themselves if they're overweight. But many of us define how we feel about ourselves with our weight. Did I feel pretty and confident at 200 pounds? No, I felt like a fat disgusting pig, putting it bluntly. I couldn't even stand to look at myself in the mirror every morning.
Am I as attractive as I used to be? Of course not. I'm a little older now, I'm not 25 anymore. Do people still tell me I'm pretty? Sure they do. Do I still get looked at by men? On occasion. I don't turn heads the way I used to (nor do I expect to) but I still have men tell me they wouldn't mind taking me to bed. I don't have a problem with being told that, I'm used to it. Or at least I was.
Do I feel as attractive as I used to? Nope. And BECAUSE I don't feel attractive anymore, it's possible men DO still look at me, I just don't notice. Because I can't see why anyone would. Even my husband said once that when we all went out one night he noticed guys looking at me. And I said, "That's crazy, nobody's interested in me."
So yeah, even though I have more confidence now than I did when I was heavy, a lot of my 'self-esteem' was broken in the process of ruining myself and I just haven't been able to get it back.
Well, I can understand how you feel....I hate dealing with men... I worked in a grocery store in their cafe area and had to deal with idiots every day!! I had to be nice and say "hello how are you today" smile,it was my job... but that translates to men as "omg she wants me" "she wants to sleep with me" I had some jerks asking me out calling the store to ask me out stating that they left their wife or that they were just married to them for security reasons, no love involved...and than when I would say beat it...not interested...they would run to a different department in the store and start crying to a friend of mine , because I guess they had been stalking me and watching who I talked to.....So when I left there and started a new job I didn't talk to any man and if I did I was rude..because I can't be bothered.than I was a *****, well than a ***** I will be because I would rather that than have unsolicitated advances from idiots...My DH, the jerk that he is thinks that if I say hi to someone,"oh you want him you are flirting.... OMG!!!! grow up ***....
So what the h*ll is it w/ men that they think that they are GOds gift to women and just because someone is nice to them that they want them....
I don't make eye contact w/anyone when out...but yet some guy would still come up to me when I have 2 kids with me, 17 and 3 yrs old trying to hit on me....tell me that isn't just plain old stupidity!!!!
that doesn't mean I want to stay overweight, because I hate being fat...but I can't stand men, like a stupid comment from my own DH you want everyone to look at you breasts.. jerk! I hate my breasts, always have never have I even made any gesture to enhance them...I mean he even made a comment that his Dad thought I had big boobs
...SICK, SICK, SICK!! and he wonders why I hate his family....pigs...
ahhh! that felt good!!but boy I could go on forever!
So what the h*ll is it w/ men that they think that they are GOds gift to women and just because someone is nice to them that they want them....
Well, the pressure alone from having to further the human race.... You're right though, they act as though they are on some tight timetable to make sure the human race can survive into next week.
I was once cornered by the vending machines at work by a guy who WOULD NOT take "no" for an answer. And he literally had me cornered in! I finally had to put my hand up and go, "when a womans says no, she really means...NO"
He got this look on his face as though I had personally kicked his dog and shaved his mother's head.
It will be interesting, as I lose weight, to see how people treat me differently. I've been considered "smart" by so many people for so long. I assumed it was because I had a degree in mathematics, but sometimes I wonder if it's because they can't attribute "cute" or "sexy" to me. Since I have lost weight, I've heard a lot of people start to say I'm cute or sexy, and I'm not really used to it. I always pipe up "and I'm smart, too!" There are so many things that are more important than being an ornament ... being noble, being kind, being intelligent.
After the **** I was put through from the last ordeal. I can some what understand why someone says "some of their gaining weight was part of defending men off"
I had a brief moment of misery and thought back how I was almost 260 lbs at one time and a man would not give me a second look. I had thought about how I did not have to put up with rude advances and rude comments and it was a rotten shame as one person said she could count the nice comments she got from men on one hand but she would need her and her whole family members hands how many times she has gotten the rude comments.
I am pretty much a blue jean t-shirt kind of girl. I have been pretty tom-boyish all my life and in very rare occasions did I dress up. Biggest part of the rude comments came when I wasn't so dressy. Just plain ol blue jeans and t-shirt or blue jean shorts and t-shirt. I think the most naked I have ever got is wearing a blouse top/or t-shirt like that barely showed my lower back area or belly button picky boo when you reach or stretch.
All though! I had that brief thought about how I did not have to put up with this being at a higher weight, I will not go back to that higher weight, I know since I been losing weight and toning up I am going to have these problems. I have pretty much decided some where down the line I am going to start taking Karate defense classes or some kind of defense classes.
That would probably be my advice. I understand the protection to ware off men by being overweight and yes that is a prison to yourself but don't let the power of men cause you to prison yourself. I would seriously start learning ways from someone by taking defense classes. You have every rights to have freedom to not to be bothered and a freedom to enjoy life and live it.
I am certainly going to have to rework my outward demeanor and be more neutral than friendly. No more smiles with my "hello, how are you?" and I'll be sure mention my Fiance more than I already do (which is a lot!).
I'm not worried about the slimeball who keeps staring at me in the office. I can take him in a fight anyday. It's just creepy to know someone is staring at you all the time. Luckily he hasn't tried to speak to me since I turned him down flat. He was so disgusting, I mentioned my fiance when I walk talking to him (because this slimeball was hitting on me) and he said "what does your fiance have to do with us?". While I was going to pour my scalding hot coffee onto his family jewels, I decided to refrain from violence and instead told him "it means it's not going to happen. Ever. Understand?"... This jerk is 20 years older than me too. Luckily the other male co workers have backed off though they weren't happy about it.
Thanks to everyone who explained a little more in-depth about those feelings I didn't understand. This has been a very educational thread. I not only learned something about women in general, but a little about myself as well. That's why I love the discussions here because it allows us to look within our own selves.
See, I was an ugly duckling as a kid. I was never overweight, but I was the 'black sheep' of my sister and I. I had red hair and freckles and pale skin. She had blonde hair, a perfect face and the ability to tan. She had perfect teeth. I needed braces. She's had men after her all of her life. Even in middle school the boys were all over her and nobody paid any attention to me. Growing up I had to sit back and watch her date beautiful men when I always ended up with these slimy jerks.
Then in my early 20's I got tired of being shoved to the side so the guys could get a good look at my sister - I bleached my hair blonde, started working out (not to lose weight but to simply tone up and have a better body - a body that would fit down into those tight clothes like a glove) and started getting out and socializing more. I developed confidence in myself I never had. And soon *I* was the one getting calls from gorgeous men, *I* was the one being pursued by them and being told they damn near wrecked their car looking at me. For the first time in my life (yes, no kidding) I felt good about myself, after years of never getting a second glance from anyone.
Then I blew it.
That's why this is so hard for me. All those years I wasted, sitting at home locked up in my apartment because I was too ashamed of myself to go out in public (after I got fat). And I didn't MEAN to get fat, it just sort of crept up on me, like it does with many people. I see people right here on these boards ask, "What the **** happened? How did I get this way?" It's like we didn't even see it coming. And once you put on that much weight and then lose it again, you've done little damages that can't always be repaired.
Confidence lost.
While I do feel much better about myself and have way more confidence than I did when I was heavy, I'm still a very self-conscious person. I always have been and I guess I always will be.
LLV - I don't mean to pry, so forgive me if this seems to personal, but are you married or currently in a relationship? I think in the same way Misti in Seattle seems to think attention would be nice, I think it is only nice when you are single and on the prowl, and even then it is easy to be too much.
This thread really hits home for me. I guess in high school I would have been eager for this kind of attention, I don't think it was *just* my weight issues, but others as well that kept guys looking elsewhere. I got used to being "one of the guys" amongst my male friends, and it wasn't long after high school that I went quickly into a relationship with my now fiance. It was easy for me to begin cutting down on the flirting, making myself more conservative in manner. Like others, I am constantly bringing my fiance into conversations with people who don't know me well, and I agree with junebug41 about attention being different from different people. There was an older security guard where I work who used to say things like "you look very nice/pretty today m'am" and it never bothered me, but I was always bothered when the guys somewhat closer to my age and who know me better in my department would get too personal. I think in the case of work, it's the woman's responsibility to draw the line. For me it's not so much people asking me out or directly hitting on me, just getting too personal and treating me in a way that makes me uncomfortable, so I work hard to draw the line. Sometimes I get away with not coming off like a b#@#$ by just acting busy. I've also found my new defense mechanism is big or conservative clothing. There may be days where I want to look and feel good, but other days there just isn't enough clothing to cover me up. Thanks for the thread gals, very enlightening.
LLV - I don't mean to pry, so forgive me if this seems to personal, but are you married or currently in a relationship?
Yes, I am.
I'm not technically married (as in that piece of paper) but the man I'm with is someone I've been with for many years. It's just a habit to refer to him as my husband.
Then in my early 20's I got tired of being shoved to the side so the guys could get a good look at my sister - I bleached my hair blonde, started working out (not to lose weight but to simply tone up and have a better body - a body that would fit down into those tight clothes like a glove) and started getting out and socializing more. I developed confidence in myself I never had. And soon *I* was the one getting calls from gorgeous men, *I* was the one being pursued by them and being told they damn near wrecked their car looking at me. For the first time in my life (yes, no kidding) I felt good about myself, after years of never getting a second glance from anyone.
Then I blew it.
I'm not attacking you, but what I get from this post is that you feel that your entire worth as a human being is based on your ability to attract men and attention from men. Don't you think you have a higher purpose in life? You are not a meat puppet with a few orifices for penile pleasure, you are a woman with valuable thoughts, opinions, and talents to share with everyone in the world. What are you going to do when you get old and wrinkly? Who is going to want you then?
You're right though, they act as though they are on some tight timetable to make sure the human race can survive into next week. 
