[kaplods]

I think we should be careful, before calling anyone, even ourselves disgusting for not being perfect, for making mistakes and struggling with any issue.

Especially when it comes to something like "fat," where there isn't even complete agreement on where "disgusting" falls on the fat spectrum. We see size 4 celebrities being bashed for being "disgustingly fat" because their thighs have a little cellulite.

I understand that to most people, I am disgustingly fat. If I can get to 200 lbs (a goal I can barely envision), to many people I will still be disgustingly fat. Still a subject of derision, contempt, and pity for many people. There will still be people telling me that what I have accomplished is not enough. Worse still, if I fall into my old habit of being disgusted with myself, it will never be enough for me. I will look at my failures instead of my successes, and I could end up gaining it all back.

For me, compassion for myself (and by extenstion, others) is why I have been able to be successful this time. Slower, but much longer lasting, already than ever before, because I strive for better every day, while pushing aside any thoughts of not good enough.

[Lekker]

I was without a doubt the world's worst eater. And non-exericser. I can't even begin to get across just how poor my eating/activity level really was.

So yes, I've said it many times, and I will continue to say it, because from the bottom of my heart, and with every ounce of my being, I truly, truly believe, that if I (& and Meg, Mel, Amanda, Midwife, Glory, and on and on) can do it, that really, anyone can.

For me, I think the danger in one saying "if I can do it, anyone can" is that it is assuming that the other people were in the same position as you [not specifically referring to the poster I quoted, I'm just using that as a frame of reference] and that their bodies will react the same way as yours did. For me, at 265 lbs, I exercise quite a lot. I run, play floor hockey, swim, bike and occasionally lift weights. It really doesn't do a lot for my weight. It makes me feel better but I'm not any lighter. When people tell me to "just start exercising" I am a bit speechless - I suspect that they do not believe me. What was true for one person at their highest weight is not necessarily true for everyone. I know my eating could be better (for *me*, some slimmer people eat poorly, too, but it doesn't have the exact same effect), and I work on trying to eat healthier food with greater frequency, but at the same time I don't think that every other person as large as me makes the same food decisions as I do. I really do believe that there is greater variation in people's respective metabolisms than society would like to believe. Fat is seen as a moral failure and I really don't think it is. Sure, I do believe that I, myself, have eaten more than necessary (but does that make me *evil*??) but I am hesitant to apply that thought to everyone.

What I try to not do is hate anyone because they are fat. For whatever reason they are fat I don't think they should be hated. They are still people (*I* am still a person) and deserving of basic respect and dignity. I believe that I am generally a very nice person and it saddens me with the knowledge that I disgust and am hated by a good portion of the population.

I do a lot of reading the FA community, though I am not completely in tune with them because I *do* want to lose (at least some) weight, but what I really like is the emphasis on not hating yourself and realizing that you are still a person worthy of respect.

[rockinrobin]

Originally Posted by Lekker

For me, I think the danger in one saying "if I can do it, anyone can" is that it is assuming that the other people were in the same position as you [not specifically referring to the poster I quoted, I'm just using that as a frame of reference] and that their bodies will react the same way as yours did. For me, at 265 lbs, I exercise quite a lot. I run, play floor hockey, swim, bike and occasionally lift weights. It really doesn't do a lot for my weight. It makes me feel better but I'm not any lighter. When people tell me to "just start exercising" I am a bit speechless - I suspect that they do not believe me. What was true for one person at their highest weight is not necessarily true for everyone. I know my eating could be better (for *me*, some slimmer people eat poorly, too, but it doesn't have the exact same effect), and I work on trying to eat healthier food with greater frequency, but at the same time I don't think that every other person as large as me makes the same food decisions as I do. I really do believe that there is greater variation in people's respective metabolisms than society would like to believe. Fat is seen as a moral failure and I really don't think it is. Sure, I do believe that I, myself, have eaten more than necessary (but does that make me *evil*??) but I am hesitant to apply that thought to everyone.


I do a lot of reading the FA community, though I am not completely in tune with them because I *do* want to lose (at least some) weight, but what I really like is the emphasis on not hating yourself and realizing that you are still a person worthy of respect.

I think there are many, many different circumstances that lead people to be morbidly obese. When I say that "I can do it, then anyone can", I by no means think that everyone was/is in the same situation as myself. I am more then aware of that.

I don't mean to offend here, so please forgive me if this comes out wrong, but by your own admission, you admit that "your eating could be better". Yes, you exercise, but most people who have lost and maintained that loss will most likely tell you that it is not exercise alone that results in weight loss. In fact, the so called experts say that it's 80% food and only 20% exercise that does it.

I do believe that people have different metabolisims. Therefore each individual requires a different calorie amount to achieve their optimal healthy weight. So perhaps you just haven't found your "formula" yet. It can be difficult and frustrating to figure that out. Through trial and error, hopefully we can all figure out what we need to produce weight loss.

[kaplods]

The problem with saying "if I can, anyone can," is that is does imply a judgement, whether intentional or not. The truth is that yes, anyone can lose weight - if they are locked in a room, with nothing to eat, they will eventually starve to death, losing weight in the process.

But, it's the judgement and intolerance involved, that is the real issue here. We've had many here, not just in this thread, but in many others, express anger, impatience, intolerance, and contempt for people who have not YET been able to lose the weight. They usually couch it in "people not even trying," but the fact is you never know why a person appears not to be trying, and whether this is fact or not. Whether the person has tried, and tried to lose weight and only ended up fatter - who may be afraid to try again for fear of only getting bigger (this was me, for a while). You never know what else they are doing in their lives, or their metabolism, health issues, emotional issues... or anything else that goes into this complicated mess.

We're also in a culture in which physical beauty is almost worshiped. A person with a curvy, but bottom heavy figure, who may be at a healthy BMI, may be considered "fat" and criticized for it. There are far too many who "hate fat," to the point they try to get off every ounce of it, to the point of losing even the healthy fat, we need.

It's "ok," even accepted or expected in this society for women who are "fat" to hate themselves (even though the definition of "fat" will vary from community to community).

The hate, contempt, and judgement have to stop. They aren't helping. For every 1 person who was able to hate their weight off, thousands find
self-hatred crippling. Not only preventing them from losing weight, preventing them from engaging in life - choosing a self-imposed exile, because they don't deserve to be in the world with normal people. For some the exile may be complete, full-blown agoraphobia, and for others it may be not allowing themselves the "priveledge" of swimming, dating, dancing, working......

It can take decades for a person to find "what works" for them, and some people never do, despite a lifetime of trying. My grandmother was one. The less she ate, the worse her arthritis and other physical ailments got, and the more she slept. Probably she wasn't getting the right nutrients or enough of them, but I think her body was also trying to compensate for the lower calorie level without allowing her to lose weight. Even on calorie levels that would starve a normal person, her body held onto the fat, reserving its resources by making her so sleepy, she was practically comatose.

Before I found carb restriction, I noticed something similar in myself. If I cut calories, I would feel exhausted, to the point that normal activity (let alone additional exercise) seemed impossible. I found low-carb and my hormonal link by accident. If I hadn't, like my grandmother, I could have died without ever having found what works for me, despite a lifetime of trying.

When we fail at weight loss, we're usually told "try harder," not "try different," so many people will never find what works for them, because they're looking in the wrong place for the answer. They think they are failing because of lack of effort, not because they're misplacing their efforts.

[midwife]

Well, Colleen, we'll just have to agree to disagree on the "if I can, anyone can." I never meant it judgmentally and when other people said it to me, I took it as inspiration. In fact, when you wrote in my bicycling thread about how if you and your dh could get on a bike, anyone can (too bad that thread was killed in the May wipeout) I took it as inspiration and it actually really did help me. Should I wonder if you meant it judgementally? I see the same themes in your posts about swimming and overcoming the "death march" to the pool and how wonderful you feel swimming and how you don't understand how other women can be so nervous or afraid about donning a swimsuit. Should those women then feel judged because you grasp life and swim because you love it, but they cannot or will not or do not and should thus be judged? Or should they feel inspired?

Please do not put words in my mouth that when I say "if I can do it, anyone can" that I am implying judgement. I know what I am saying and how I intend it. As you know communication goes both ways and the listener or the reader brings their own stories, issues, and interpretations. That does NOT mean that the speaker meant it in a negative fashion.

[kaplods]

When I said "implies," it was not a judgement of the person's intentions in communicating, but rather a way that it can receptively appear to the person hearing the words. If I used the words "if I or we can, anyone can," in terms of bicycling or swimming, I'm very sorry that I did, because I try not to use statements that are not literally and figuratively accurate. And obviously some people are physically or emotionally unable to swim or bicycle for many reasons.

In much the same way that I find the statement "you have such a pretty face," or "you'd be pretty if you lost weight," I realize that the giver of the statement may have no ill intention whatsoever, when saying "If I can do it, anyone can," but the effect of these statements can be very detrimental to the person receiving it, who may feel that judgement is attached whether it is or not. As in the "pretty face," comment, it's common for many to internalize the comment (whether it was intended so or not) to mean, "I am ugly now." And the same is true of the "if I can." Many will interpret it as intended, but many will interpret it "if anyone can, and I can't, I must be the biggest loser on the planet."

It isn't the responsibility of the communicator to ensure that their comments can never be misinterpreted, but I think it's useful to know that it can, and to see the viewpoint of someone who has felt the sting of a comment, that may or may not have been of 100% innoffensive intent.

Most of the time, I can brush off comments that sting, whether I feel the person intended insult or not. I tend not to take such things personally, but because I see so many people who are incredibly affected by comments of friends, family, and even strangers, I try to be sensitive of that. I don't always succeed, and I don't expect anyone else to either. Just offering a viewpoint of how such statements can be misinterpreted, and can harm rather than help as intended.

[rockinrobin]

The problem with saying "if I can, anyone can," is that is does imply a judgement, whether intentional or not. The truth is that yes, anyone can lose weight - if they are locked in a room, with nothing to eat, they will eventually starve to death, losing weight in the process.

I thought about letting it go, and not responding again to this particular thread, since Midwife once again has found the eloquence and the right words, but I just can't let it go.

I would never make a statement if I thought the "only way" someone could achieve their goals was to "lock them in a room and starve them". That would be cruel and indeed "non-achievable", IMO. And it most certainly DOES NOT imply judgement. I bend over backwards here to never, ever judge anyone, because no one knows better them myself just how hard weight loss is. There are times I will pause before I write something here to make sure I am not offending anyone, and yes sometimes I fail. But with the statement "If I can, anyone can", I never paused. Not for a teeny, tiny second. Because as Midwife has already said, it was never, ever meant as a judgment, not even close, but as inspiration.

In much the same way that I find the statement "you have such a pretty face," or "you'd be pretty if you lost weight," I realize that the giver of the statement may have no ill intention whatsoever, when saying "If I can do it, anyone can," but the effect of these statements can be very detrimental to the person receiving it, who may feel that judgement is attached whether it is or not. As in the "pretty face," comment, it's common for many to internalize the comment (whether it was intended so or not) to mean, "I am ugly now." And the same is true of the "if I can." Many will interpret it as intended, but many will interpret it "if anyone can, and I can't, I must be the biggest loser on the planet."

To say that, "You've got such a pretty face" and "you'd be pretty if you lost weight", is not at all the same and does not fall in the "If I can, anyone can" category. Those first statements are cruel and insensitive and not helpful or imformative at all. I have never ever used statement like that and never would.

To say that "If I can, anyone can" to someone who hasn't (yet), does not mean that that person is a loser. It means PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE don't give up hope, keep fighting away. I want you to KNOW something. I've just GOT to let you know that it's doable.

It's funny, because I've "said" this here many times and thought it even more often, how I only wish someone would have sat down with me years ago and gave me a good talking to, someone who "had done it" and seriously told me that it was POSSIBLE that I too COULD lose weight, that would have meant the world to me. Because you see, nobody ever told me that I could lose the weight, so I thought for many, many years that I COULDN'T. How I wish someone would have just told me, someone who's been there, done that, would have just said to me, "Robin, if I can do it, trust me, you CAN do it too". And I would have believed them. I only wish I had known. I only wish someone WOULD have told me. But no one ever did.

It's also funny in that, if I could only get ONE thing across to people, to help them out in anyway I could, it would indeed be the line in question, "That if I can, anyone can". That's just how informative and how powerful and how inspirational and how much hope I feel that line brings about.

So please, don't ever say/think that I am judging anyone when I use those words. Nothing could be further from the truth.

[Robsia]

To say that, "You've got such a pretty face" and "you'd be pretty if you lost weight", is not at all the same and does not fall in the "If I can, anyone can" category. Those first statements are cruel and insensitive and not helpful or imformative at all.

Maybe it's just me but I don't see those two statements as being the same.

If someone said the first to me I would be flattered and take it at face value and as a compliment. The second, certainly I would find insulting.

[Iconoclast at Large]

Robin -- Speaking for myself -- I find the words "If I can do it, anyone can do it" very comforting and motivating. It tells me that maybe this person has been in my position and I DO have an ally in the battle.

My opinion is also that I may be in the majority in finding inspiration in those words. While I appreciate taking care to not try to offend anyone, I also feel that since we all come a thousand different places in life, there may be a thousand different ways we take things. The burden of responsibility cannot fully lie with the speaker. The receiver has some responsibility to be compassionate to the speaker as well.

All we can do is be ourselves and come from a place that we believe to be courteous, supportive, and respectful. For that, I do not believe there can be any recrimination.

[rockinrobin]

Originally Posted by Iconoclast at Large

Robin -- Speaking for myself -- I find the words "If I can do it, anyone can do it" very comforting and motivating. It tells me that maybe this person has been in my position and I DO have an ally in the battle.

My opinion is also that I may be in the majority in finding inspiration in those words. While I appreciate taking care to not try to offend anyone, I also feel that since we all come a thousand different places in life, there may be a thousand different ways we take things. The burden of responsibility cannot fully lie with the speaker. The receiver has some responsibility to be compassionate to the speaker as well.

All we can do is be ourselves and come from a place that we believe to be courteous, supportive, and respectful. For that, I do not believe there can be any recrimination.

Iconoclast, thank you for responding!!! I can't tell you how much this has been bothering me this morning. I was even thinking of starting a seperate thread about the phrase and asking people's opinion on it.

I like how you mentioned that you find it comforting. Because, again, I'm telling you if only someone HAD told me earlier, I would have believed them. I would have derived comfort from it. I would have heaved a sigh of relief, just knowing that it was DOABLE and that anyone, even little ole' ME, could do it.

[Iconoclast at Large]

Robin - You've given me too much inspiration for me to stand silent and let you think the words of encouragement were not appreciated!

[midwife]

Heh, Robin, I've been thinking about this too and I keep wondering why. I think first, I am mortified if I ever said anything that might have hurt anyone on this website. I know sometimes I can be very exuberant and enthusiastic and sometimes that can come off the wrong way. This place means a lot to me and I would feel awful if someone ever read my posts and felt judged, cause that is never my intention.

But then I started thinking and wondering if I could or should remove my belief of "If I can, anyone can" from my journey. If it is hurtful at all, maybe I should. I can still offer support in other ways, right.

And then I tried to picture my weight loss journey without that belief, and I realized that that belief is ironclad and is a base of my success, just as weights and cardio and nutrition and support (and 3FC!) are bases. Would my weight loss journey and maintenance be what it is if I removed that tenet? I think the answer is no.

I really believe in my core that each person who comes to 3FC has the power and the ability to meet their weight loss goals. I believe that I can. I believe that opportunity is open to everyone. I do not believe it is easy. I believe we all bring baggage and challenges and barriers and histories. But I believe in the indominitable will of the human spirit and I believe in biology. I'm not saying everyone who comes to 3FC can wear a size 4 or run a marathon, as there may be biological restrictions of course. But to gain control of eating and movement and to be at what they consider a healthy weight....yes, I do believe that is possible for each person here.

The belief in the "possible-ness" (yes, I invent words) is vital for my journey and I cannot give it up. That doesn't mean I do not have empathy or understanding or an appreciation of difficulties and barriers. Oh, I do! Not just on here, but each day at work I have women struggling with these same issues and looking to me for guidance and advice....but I believe it is possible for each one of us.

My son read a novel for school this summer called The Legend of the Wandering King. He told me it was awesome and that I should read it and when one's 13 year old son is enthused about a book that is not Halo and not Star Wars, then one reads it. So I read it last night. It is about a King who does a terrible deed, loses everything, wanders (hence the title), and undergoes many trials and much suffering. He believes that his trials and sufferings are punishment for his terrible deed. On his travels, he seeks a wondrous carpet to repent for his deed, knowing that once he finds the carpet, his final act will be to return it to a man who has sworn to kill him, and he as approaches the end of his journey, a gruesome death awaits as his final punishment.

Can you see why it intrigued my son?

The carpet is wondrous cause it holds all the stories of the past, present, and future. Men who looked into the carpet went mad with all the sufferings and noise. When the king looked into the carpet, he saw his life leading in many directions: the gruesome death, a father to many, life as a merchant.....the possibilities were endless. And he realizes that his fate is not locked in....that even though he had set himself on this horrible path with his evil deed, that he could change the outcome of his life.

The carpet presented the future as a tapestry in which an endless numbers of different paths were interwoven, so that even though each path reached its own distinct end, each human being was free to decide which one to choose, whether to turn back, to follow, or even to open up a new path of his own....He observed the carpet more closely still, and as he went over the pathways one by one, he realized that they often led to completely unexpected destinations, something unforeseen completely changing a person's initial decisions about which path to take. Yet it was also true that the strength of will and devotion to one's dreams could lead a traveler where he truly wanted to go.*

I know I am a Pollyanna, but I've always been a glass half full kind of person and I cannot shake my belief that each person truly can achieve his or her dreams. Obstacles can be overcome. I agree that perfection and self-hatred must be booted from the equation, but I will never give up my belief that I and everyone else can achieve our goals.

So I might still post my belief "If I can, anyone can" but maybe with an asterisk or some such.

So one last gem from The Wandering King before I am off to my non-3FC life.

Every Warrior of the Light has, at sometime in the past, lied to and betrayed someone.

Every Warrior of the Light has trodden a path that was not his...

Every Warrior of the Light has, at least once, believed that he was not a Warrior of the Light...

That is why he is a Warrior of the Light: Because he has been through all this and yet has never lost hope of being better than he is.
---Paulo Coelho, Warrior of the Light: A Manual

I'm going to bed now. I hope this post will still make sense after I've had a nap.





*The Legend of the Wandering King by Laura Gallegos Garcia. Buy it from Amazon through the 3FC site.

[nelie]

I noticed this thread had taken a turn and I wanted to respond but didn't know how.

I would agree that the phrase "If I can, anyone can" can be empowering. I too would agree that I believe that anyone who comes to 3FC (and even those that don't) CAN lose weight or do a multitude of things that they never thought possible.

I know midwife talked about bike riding. If you had asked me 5 years ago if you'd ever see me on a bike, I'd tell you no way, I'm too scared to ride a bike. If you'd asked me 5 years ago, if I could walk over a super tall bridge without an issue, I'd tell you that you were crazy. So this weekend, I rode my bike over a super tall bridge one way and walked over the super tall bridge the other way. No issue, either time. My brand new bike has about 25 miles on it and went into its first tuneup yesterday a bit dusty. Now I wouldn't say everyone could ride a bike as it does require a certain amount of mobility (although there are so many different types of bikes, even if you are paralyzed, you can) but the belief that you can't do something is so devastating while the belief that you can do something is so empowering.

My own example is I believe I can get to my goal weight but honestly, I haven't figured out how yet. I mean I know the basics but for me, its been tricky and I haven't figured out how to mentally get there even if I know how to physically get there.

[junebug41]

Originally Posted by nelie

I noticed this thread had taken a turn and I wanted to respond but didn't know how.

I would agree that the phrase "If I can, anyone can" can be empowering. I too would agree that I believe that anyone who comes to 3FC (and even those that don't) CAN lose weight or do a multitude of things that they never thought possible.

Absolutely! Before, people who lost weight or even just lived a very healthy lifestyle were viewed by me as a completely different class of citizen. Not that I wasn't worthy of being healthy, but it was on such a different level from which I lived. I mean, these people may as well be superhumans, capable of taking flight and scaling the sides of buildings for all I had in common with them! To hear from someone who is human and imperfect that they pulled it off and are thriving (such as you, Robin, midwife, Nelie, etc...) and it is not a superhuman task, well, that is empowering.


I have to say I've heard that phrase many times referencing many things and I don't recall ever having been offended by it. It does, however, give me pause because we do tend to be our own worst enemies. For example, I have been avoiding that first 5K for a coupole of reasons, but mostly my fear of competition in sports (as someone who grew up the fat kid, the thought of even jogging with other peope keeps me up at night) and I have been talking myself out of it for YEARS now. If you had told me a few years ago that my main form of cardio would be running, I would have laughed at you. My best friend, who herself is overweight and a chain smoker and most certainly not a regular runner called me up and informed that she had completed a 5k at her Navy buddy's insistence. She was so high off the experience that she told me if she could do it, anyone can and I had to pause because in my case, it was true. It made me face the fact that it is this silly little fear standing in my way.

While fear may not be everyone's reason for not accomplishing a goal it can certainly enlighten you as to the real reason. And sometimes enlightenment=empowerment.

[kaplods]

We are all shaped by our experiences, and sometimes I forget how different that can make a person's viewpoint. Growing up, I was told how easy weight loss was, and I just was being stubborn and refusing to cooperate. I did find it more difficult to diet than my mother and grandmother. I was the fattest person in the family by age 12, and the only person in the family to be fat as a child. My three younger siblings were all normal weight as a child, and only one ever struggled with her weight (and with fewer than 30 lbs). My father constantly told me how "easy" it was to lose weight (slim all his life, he thought he knew what he was talking about). And even my mother, who struggled with her weight, would often brag about how much better she was doing with weight loss than I (I'm not sure whether she was actually feeling competitive with a 10 year old, or thought it would "motivate" me).

Being adopted (my brother was also, my two youngest sisters came into the family the traditional way), and knowing that some propensities to gain weight are genetic, I now wonder if obesity runs in my biofamily. Growing up, all I knew was that I was the freak in the family.

I also had a family very talented at turning a complement into an insult with inflection or tone of voice (which can't be transmitted even with emoticons online). Believe me, if my grandmother or mother told you "you have such a pretty face," you would not take it as a compliment.

My husband says that when I'm irritable, if there's a negative way to interpret a comment, I find it. It's a habit I find irritating in my mother, and am annoyed that I have picked up. But all the criticism of my childhood, and young adulthood (who am I kidding, it's still going on today), and the constant attacks for not being able to control my weight and appetite, have made me oversensitive to the "anyone can," comments because I was told so often that "anyone can lose weight if they want to," not in a nice supportive way at all, but with great hostility and the implication that I didn't want to (yeah, being a fat kid was great fun). I did crazy things in my life to try to lose weight. In highschool, I was able to lose 70 lbs. It took me over two years, on prescription diet pills that made me hyper and dizzy, and eating only on weekends (about 500 calories a day or less during the week).

Given the very different experiences of so many of us here, it makes me wonder all the more why the diet researchers are trying to find THE best diet or approach to losing weight. It's like trying to find the best medication to deal with every type of headache - it makes a difference whether it's a sinus headache, an allergy headache, a stress headache or a migraine. What works for one, doesn't necessarily work for the other.