I see I might have created a problem here....what's new ...with what I said. If I knew it was going to come up I would have explained further.
As most of you know I was divorced and so was Angie when we met. Divorce was not my choice, it was her choice in her first marriage. Details are not important for this thread topic.
I will try and explain better my view ~
As much as I did not want a divorce from my first wife, I thank God daily for Angie.
Angie and I are Christians and, through maturity in our Lord, we understand better that God will do as He promises and restore all things broken. We know that by looking to Him daily for guidance and listening to what He is telling us through His WORD we will survive all "issues" in our marriage. I will say we have had a few....though ones....with my step-daughter.
We believe that the Bible does give us grounds for divorce...but we also know that if we both look to our Lord first, on a daily basis, we will not fall into those situations.
The point of my first post was that as long as people look at divorce as a way out...an option as I said...they tend to...IMO...ONLY my opinion ...fail to do what they need to do to save the marraige. Again I stress, it only takes ONE person to want one....if the other person does there is usually nothing you can do about it.
I will admit that 19 years ago....OMGoodness! has it been that long?...wow!!...anyway....as much as I didn't want a divorce I will tell you I wanted my marriage saved for ME...little 'ol ME!!!...although I was a church attending Christian I know that I didn't "rest" in God's WORD and allow Him to work it out for my good. I held on tight, saying it was what God wanted...which it was...but it was not what my-ex wanted....I learned my lesson...still learning everyday in His WORD....I often say if I knew how good my life was going to be after my ex left I would have helped her pack her bags
All joking aside, it was a tough time in my life...well past that now and most know that my ex and I are great friends...actually will see each other most of the week-end for different family activities...as usual.
As usual I have rambled on and on and probably confused everyone even more...some things never change
The point of my first post was that as long as people look at divorce as a way out...an option as I said...they tend to...IMO...ONLY my opinion ...fail to do what they need to do to save the marraige.
Which is ... IMO... ONLY in my opinon ... hurtful and dismissive of those of us who have done everything to save their marriage - ON BOTH SIDES - and simply cannot.
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to say I find your opinion to be hurtful and cruel.
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Last edited by PhotoChick; 10-11-2008 at 01:28 PM.
Which is ... IMO... ONLY in my opinon ... hurtful and dismissive of those of us who have done everything to save their marriage - ON BOTH SIDES - and simply cannot.
You're entitled to your opinion. I'm entitled to say I find your opinion to be hurtful and cruel.
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PHOTOCHICK ~ I am so confused as to how you see what I am posting is hurtful or accusing. I apologize...sincerely! And I will suggest we move past this
Since EZMONEY has opened the topic of describing religious views of marriage, let me offer a different perspective.
In Buddhism, there is no "creator god," and there is also no "original sin" that is associated with sexual knowledge or behavior. That being the case, you can see that it's a rather different starting point. Nevertheless, Buddhism has a precept against sexual misconduct, which means exploitive sex, forced sex, and/or nonconsensual sex.
"Buddhism generally takes the attitude that sex between two people who love each other is moral, whether they are married or not. On the other hand, sex within marriages can be abusive, and marriage doesn't make that abuse moral." --Barbara O'Brien, About.com.
In Buddhism a set "marriage ceremony" doesn't really exist, although some sects do have the equivalent of a "union blessing ceremony." Again, one is not being married "in the eyes of God." From this point of view, marriage is an agreement and legal contract, depending on the culture one lives in. And with any agreement, sometimes things change.
My dear friend JAY ~ I was not in any way trying to make a religious or a moral statement. I wanted to share HOW Angie and I stay away from divorce....by stating that WE know that our Savior is the thread that holds us together and as long as [B]we...the both of us/B] look to His WORD then we know that our marriage will always be saved.
And I know it is a religious statement...but it is who I am...not trying to preach to anyone...just sharing a little bit about me
No problem, Gary. However, the discussion seemed to wander a bit. I think it's true that if someone enters a marriage with the idea that "Oh well, if it doesn't work out, I can always get a divorce," maybe they shouldn't be getting married in the first place. But I'd guess most people go into a marriage thinking that it's for the long term.
Gary, you have shared that what keeps you and Angie from thinking of divorce is that you have Jesus in your marriage. I posted what I did simply to point out that one does not have to have Jesus, Jehovah, Allah, or any other deity involved in order to have a long-term, solid, committed marriage.
I do think that a couple needs to have a mutual understanding of shared spiritual, or if that word doesn't work, ethical values, such as honesty, fairness, and respect for the rights and feelings of each other. But even then, feelings do change. That doesn't mean divorce is the answer, of course--but sometimes, for some people, it is.
I am in a troubled marriage. I could bore you with all the gorey details, but I do not think there is enough room on this server for all that garbage.
I too am a Christian and believe that marriage is for life.....well, at first I wanted my marriage to work out because my mom was so against it and hers didn't work out, but I digress. I do have "biblical" reasons to get a divorce, but I am going to try one more thing to save my marriage. And trust me, I am tired of being the one to initiate all the change in this marriage.
I recently saw a movie called "Fireproof" with Kirk Cameron. This is a Christian based movie and may not appeal to those who are non-believers, but the concept of this book is basic. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres. Love never fails 1 Corinthians 13:4-13
With that said I have taken the "LOVE DARE". Will this save my marriage? I have no idea. Basically, I am going into this with not alot of hope, but with an open mind.
So, bottom line....Marriage is work, whether or not you want it to be or not. Communication is definately key, but difficult if the other person does not want or know how to open up.
Last edited by luvin2lose; 10-11-2008 at 06:32 PM.
There are times when divorce is the only healthy option. I know I didn't get married with the expectation that I would be divorced within 5 years. I worked very hard to make our marriage work, but as you all know, it takes two people - it wasn't very important to him.
I was cheated on, lied to, financially messed up, etc and I found myself hating life, but even then I still tried counseling and everything else I could think of to make it work. He eventually ended up leaving, and for that, I am thankful. I don't know that I would have had the strength to say enough is enough, and the path I was on was speeding towards destruction.
There's no real formula for a successful marriage because there are just so many variables. I think the most important things are communication, honesty, willingness to keep trying, and acting in the best interests of both people. If you have the basic foundation set, you're a step ahead of most.
Edited to also say that sometimes love is not enough. It doesn't matter what you or your spouse does, there are some things you just can't "fix". And, as said by many, divorce is never out of the blue - one or both people knew it was coming long before it got to that point.
Last edited by brandnewme; 10-11-2008 at 10:21 PM.
Reason: I'm wordy today :P
I'm divorced, was married for about 8 years before we separated. I didn't get married thinking that I would get divorced. I spent a lot of time thinking that I was trapped in my marriage and in my situation and that divorce was not an option because "I won't do that to my kids".
I did get married thinking that he would grow with me and that didn't happen. All of the resentment he harbored built up and turned into ugly verbal assaults. My divorce was the best thing for me and also for my children. If I had stayed in that situation it would have taught my boys that it is ok to treat their wives/girlfriends/significant others that way and, more importantly to me, it would have taught my daughter that being treated badly is ok. What is odd is that he was the one that was so adament that he married so poorly with me, but he didn't want our divorce when it came down to it.
My ex is remarried and seems very happy. He treats her wonderfully (as far as I can tell) and I think that he learned a lot about what he needed and how to treat someone from our divorce. We are friendly, sit together at the kids' events, talk on the phone about their stuff, etc... I am not remarried, but have been dating a wonderful man for a couple of years and have learned to trust again and I do hope that one day I'll be married again. My kids are happy, well behaved, well mannered, and well loved kids. They are all good students and are well-adjusted. I think that had I stayed in my marriage and let them grow up in a tense, angry enviroment, this would not be the case.
My divorce was not out of the blue to me, but, in a lot of ways, it was to him. He thought I would stay there no matter what and he pushed that until I couldn't do it anymore. Very few people knew that we had such huge issues behind closed doors, so I assume it was out of the blue to many of our family and friends as well. You don't go around announcing to people that your husband tells you daily that you are the biggest mistake that he ever made.
I'm not sure what my point is, but I guess that I just wanted people to not look at the black/white of divorce is good/bad. Sometimes it is the only option for everyone involved to maintain positive mental health.
I really think that pre-marriage counseling should be required. I think at least for a lot of people who get married very young like i did- they don't have a clue what it's going to be like. I didn't know what it'd be like living on my own, much less being married. And then you start to grow up- your opinions, beliefs, life experience - everything changes you and makes you into the person you're going to be. Late teens and twenties are probably not the best times to tie yourself to any commitment that is longer then- a semester at college. lol.
I had no idea when I was 19 that I'd change my mind and decide I want children - and he wouldn't. I had no idea that I'd never go to college because he thinks it's a waste of time/money. I didn't know that I'd live in a house where I come home, cook and clean for someone who doesn't appreciate it then go hide in my room and read until it's time to go to bed. I didn't know that I'd be made to feel like i'm the dumbest person on earth every single day, or have fights with the person i'm supposed to love above all others every single day. If I'd known these things- I'd probably made a different decision when I was 19.
People make mistakes. I didn't get married thinking - well if it doesn't work out I'll just divorce the jerk. I got married thinking that I was getting a life partner. Sometimes you get something other then what you were expecting. At least for me since I'm still married and struggling a lot- the question I've been asking myself and have been unable to answer and I have to assume that a lot of other women and men in marriages have asked themselves this question too... How much of myself am I willing to sacrifice to this?
There are thousands of reasons marriages fail, and I don't believe there are any simple explanations to why it happens, when it happens, and whether or not it was preventable. There are no general answers only specific ones to specific marriages.
I do think there are marriages that do stay intact only because neither partner would consider a divorce, whether their reasons are religion, children, control, fear, or stubbornness. So refusing to consider divorce is an option (not necessarily a good option in many cases, but it is an option).
In a very real way, a divorce can only happen when someone in the marriage does see it as an option. Whether they went into the marriage with that option in mind is an entirely different issue. But seeing divorce as an option isn't necessarily a terrible thing. We see women die (and less often, men though it too happens) at the hands of a spouse because they didn't consider leaving an option even in a toxic, abusive relationship.
There are people who wait too long to leave, and people who leave too soon. Although the judgement as to which is which is not necessarily appropriate for anyone on the outside to judge.
It does seem in this modern world, that many people don't take marriage very seriously. They make vows, they it seems they didn't pay much attention to. To vow for "better or worse," and then leave a spouse because they've aged or gained a few pounds, or other superficial reasons, well it seems to happen more often than you'd expect if they really understood the better or worse part.
My husband and I have friends who are on their third or fourth marriage, because the marriage broke up when it stopped being "fun" to be married. There weren't any major incompatibilities or serious problems in the marriages, the marriage had just lost it's "spark."
I don't think that most people going into marriage are that shallow. Most people do understand that there will be better and worse, richer and poorer, sickness and health. Although I do think most of us don't really fully realize what those vows mean until we face some of the worse, poorer, and sickness parts.
My husband's parents divorce when he was a teen (and he said his sister and he prayed for their divorce for many years before it happened). It was a very ugly divorce (but a perfect marriage, and a perfect family to all observers). My parents have been together in a far from perfect, but intact Catholic marriage. In Catholicism a person can divorce, but can not remarry unless the first marriage is found to be invalid for some reason. An annulment isn't a catholic divorce, the "rules" are very specific, and don't always make sense in the modern world (abuse is not necessarily a valid reason for dissolving a marriage).
My husband went into our marriage very afraid of divorce. We've been married for nearly 6 years, and my husband is still afraid that I will leave him. He can be a bit of a stubborn jerk at times, but I knew that when I married him, and I'm not going to leave the minute I decide I don't like him very much (I'd be leaving every other week, if I decided that).
I told my husband when I married him that I expected to fall in and out of love with him many times, and that I felt that love was as much a choice as a feeling, and if we both felt that way, and worked on our marriage, we had a good chance of it working. So far, that has worked for us.
Six years of marriage is still pretty much newlyweds, though we say we've had a crash course in marriage, because we've face a lot of the worse, poorer, and sickness side of our vows. We've faced my husband's job loss, mystery health problems leading to a diagnosis for me of fibromyalgia, autoimmune disease, sleep apnea, a sinus malformation, a bankruptcy due to my medical bills, my decline in health causing me to leave a very lucrative job (that was 60% of our income). Our having to live on 25% of our income while I applied for disability - my husband then having a serious injury that triggered a health crisis, job loss, and disability himself. Mounting medical bills that are putting us back into financial crisis.
Stress eats at a marriage. In some ways, I do consider us having had a crash course in marriage, and our marriage isn't scar-free as a result. Many people in our situations have divorced because they and their marriage couldn't stand the pressure. I don't feel my husband and I are superior to any of the couples whose marriaged didn't survive those stresses. For us, God has kept our marriage together (not always thanks to either of us).
I was raised in a fairly devout Catholic home, but I've had a much more complicated faith work than my husband, and spent many years as a lapsed Catholic and deliberate agnostic. I am the doubting Thomas - one minute feeling very close to God and the next trying to understand how God can exist. My husband's faith is more stable and simple. He does have the faith of a child, and doesn't have to think about it much. I both envy that, and find it extremely irritating.
A successful marriage is a lot of work, more work than I ever imagined putting in when I married (and I was about as well-prepared for marriage as anyone could be). I did tell my husband when we married, that I was very used to living alone and I liked it (I was prepared to be the middle-aged cat lady when I met my husband at 35). I expected marriage to be a lot harder than being single, and it has been. Being single wasn't better than being married, but it was definitely easier.
I think it's unrealistic to expect or assume that all marriages will, could or even should work out. Sometimes divorce is the best for all concerned, and other times it maybe happens when it didn't need to, but it did anyway. I think you can be reasonable well prepared for the struggles and challenges your marriage and you in that marriage will face, but there is no magic or no guarantees.
I agree with EZ's first post 100%. DH and I discussed divorce a lot before getting married and agreed that we would not ever consider it an option. I think that the mentality we have regarding divorce affects how we handle almost every situation where heated emotions rear their ugly heads. If we felt like divorce was an option to explore, it would be easier to throw in the towel than to work through and understand each other. If one of us wasn't able to trust that the other really didn't consider divorce an option, we wouldn't have gotten married. We feel that convicted about it.
Some people may think that ours is a naive position to take, and it may be, but every time we argue, we know that we have to come to a conclusion then and there because there are no other options besides working out our differences. I think that, because of this, we argue much less than other couples our age who have been married the same amount of time. That is truly a blessing. We're on the same page and KNOW that we're on the same page.
With that out of the way, I do think that the phenomena of more couples getting divorced after many more years of marriage than we're used to has a lot to do with children. One of our friend's parents divorced after 25+ years of marriage recently. The turning point? Their youngest child left for college. Our friend was shocked, but finally came to realize that they had been unhappy for a long time. I know a lot of people say that you shouldn't stay married because of children, but I know that, in this family, the children are happy that they stayed married until she graduated.
I have known my husband for 19 years - We've been married for 12. Both of us agree we are happier now than we've ever been.
I am driven and strongwilled. My husband is very grounded and realistic. We agree and appreciate these things about eachother. Although it stinks sometimes when I am strongwilled about something that is not realistic!
I find it is sexy and magnetic when you believe in yourself and are confident in who you are. My mom told me - You have to be 'good company' and bring something interesting to the table...
He says to me - "If you ever leave me... take me with you".
We're a team - To the end.
Last edited by Marathon Mom; 10-13-2008 at 02:12 PM.
I think if both partners are committed, it is possible to say realistically "divorce is not an option for us, because we will always put the marriage before our individual desires and needs." But if either person decides that their individual needs are more important than the marriage (and I'm not judging the morality of that decision, particularly without knowing what needs we're talking about), then divorce (at least an emotional disconnection from the marriage) becomes possible.
My husband and I decided when we discussed marrying, that we would try to put the other's needs ahead of our own, and the marriage's need before either of us. Without God's help, and that commitment; I don't think our marriage would still be strong. The stresses of all we've faced would have just been to much for the marriage to bear. Part of it was following the advice of my husband's grandparents who have been married more than 50 years "love each other, even when you hate each other."
It may seem impossible to love a person you hate (or at least don't like very much), but you can learn that love is an action not just a feeling. I think a marriage based on the action of love, is stronger than a marriage based on the feeling of love alone, because that feeling does ebb and flow. There are days I can't imagine ever again having the "hormonal" rush feeling of love for my husband. It feels like that magic is gone forever, when in reality the tide is just out, and it will eventually flow in again, especially if I stir the waters by choices I make. The action of love can bring about feelings of love, but I think without the actions, the feelings fade relatively quickly. A marriage can be like cultivating an exotic plant, it takes a lot of work and even with a lot of work, it doesn't always work out the way you expect. That doesn't mean a couple can't decide to keep and nurture the plant at all costs even when the plant looks dead to everyone else, or they may discard the plant because it doesn't meet their expectiations, even if it appears healthy to everyone else.
I'm not going to judge anyone's criteria for keeping a marriage, or their methods of tending it, but I am confident in my husband's and my ability, with the help of God and the guidance of our faith, to tend the marriage and keep it alive and growing. It may not always be in the same stage of "bloom" as it was on our wedding day, but I think we can keep it healthy any way.
I have to say that I expected beautiful flowers (a happy, easy marriage), but with our "crash course" in marriage through all the stresses, it's really more of a bonzai tree, shaped and strengthened by diversity, a little odd and even weathered and mishapen, but with a beauty of it's own.
...with what I said. If I knew it was going to come up I would have explained further.
listening to what He is telling us through His WORD we will survive all "issues" in our marriage. I will say we have had a few....though ones....with my step-daughter. 
...fail to do what they need to do to save the marraige. Again I stress, it only takes ONE person to want one....if the other person does there is usually nothing you can do about it.
confused everyone even more...some things never change 
But I'd guess most people go into a marriage thinking that it's for the long term.
