Lizzie - I'm so sorry to hear about the situation you are in. I do think it can be difficult when you are young and don't really know who you are or who you want to be.

I also think it can be difficult when you marry when you are older though because who you are may be well established and you may be very independent. I liked being alone, I liked being single but at the age of 31, I decided that I would share my life with someone and it was a bit of a learning process. We did discuss quite a bit of things before getting married, like kids where neither of us wanted kids but would consider them if the other decided they would like to have kids. We discussed future hopes, dreams, goals, etc. Even though things have changed and my hopes, dreams, goals of today are a bit different than a few years ago.

I also believe that in a marriage you should be able to be your own person. If someone wants kids, then the other person should be willing to discuss it. If someone wants to go to school, why would someone discourage that? If your hopes, dreams, goals are so widely divergent then maybe it isn't a place you should be.

Hm. Ok, I'm trying to figure out a way to say what I want to say about this and be clear and concise and I'm having a hard time.

The thing here is that when it's phrased this way, it becomes judgmental (even if it's not meant to be) towards those who cannot reconcile their individual needs with each other.

What do you do when each person in the marriage has changed to the point that their individual needs are not compatible? At that point, neither person is happy and neither of them CAN change back to the way they were because it would mean suppressing or denying a very real, very tangible need.

[edited for privacy reasons]

And the idea that we went into our marriage with the idea that divorce was an option and therefore we "let" this happen is or that we chose our personal needs above the needs of our marriage is ... again, hurtful and offensive to me.

FWIW.

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photo - I think marriages need to have compromise and it seems in your situation, there is no compromise. So you and your husband are polar opposites with one spouse 'winning' their side and the other person being unhappy.

Before I married my husband, we discovered that we weren't totally compatible in the same aspect. I'm not talking years though, more like days and I'm not sure how I would've felt if I went without for weeks let alone years. We made compromises though that kept us both happy and didn't leave me feeling unloved/unhappy and didn't leave him feeling that he was being pressured/harassed.

I think I was careful in being nonjudgemental - because I wasn't placing judgement on either an intact marriage or a divorce. Each can be a good thing. Each can be a horrible thing. Sometimes it's neither. Many people believe that an individual's needs and even desires are always more important that a marriage. There are also people who believe that the marriage is always more important than either individual's needs and desires (or worse, more important than one of the person's needs and desires). Neither opinion is necessarily right for everyone, or even right for the person practicing them. I can think of examples of each that would be horrible, and seem to be destroying one or both of the participants (and/or the larger family).

All of that being said, the exact value each partner places on individual needs and desires (each person's in the marriage) and the value they place on the marriage itself all do play a role in the decision of a divorce. A divorce cannot happen without at least one person's consent. That's neither a good or a bad thing in itself, it's just a fact. That doesn't mean a particular divorce shouldn't happen. Staying in a marriage that has become an ugly or dead thing is also (in my opinion) an unfortunate decision, at least without both partners deciding to work make it better.

I have no business judging or careless commenting or speculating on the dissolution of any particular marriage (whether or not it seemed salvageable by my standards), if it isn't my marriage. To me, I might believe "In the same situation, I would have tried to work that out," or "that wouldn't be a reason for divorce for me," doesn't mean I think I can judge that for any other couple or family.

I'm not perfect in that, though as there are some cases close to me that are harder not to judge (but mostly these are cases so close to my life that they are affecting my life). My husband's parents "stayed together for the kids," torturing the kids in the process. They both still pat themselves on the back for their resolve in trying to save the marriage, neither fully realizing the trauma they placed on their kids. In some ways, my parents marriage has been extremely turmultuous and I've wondered periodically if one or both of them wouldn't be happier in a divorce, but that's not my judgement to make, it's theirs, and I would support either. After seeing my husband's parents relationship (at least the indirect result of it) it made me see the difference in my parents relationship. As much conflict as there is between them, neither can invision their life without the other. A much as my mom gets on my dad's nerves, and my mom get's on my dad's, they're almost never more than 15 feet from the other.

I'm just saying that all of us have priorities and values that determine our decisions regarding marriage. I don't believe it's wrong to put some individual needs ahead of a marriage (the need for personal safety being one that instantly comes to mind), but I do believe it's wrong to put some individual needs ahead of a marriage. But, it's not my job, responsibility or right to determine the right or wrong of it for anyone else. That being said, I also don't think it's wrong to share our values, priorities and decisions on the matter, either.

I wasn't judging anyone else's choices or values, just stating my own. I am happy with my values and decisions, but I'm not saying they're right for everyone, just that they're right for me, my husband and our marriage. Because my position on this topic seems to be a bit uncommon, I tend to be more vocal in sharing it - that's just my personality to want to present my "weird" views and values more strongly than my views that are more mainstream.

photochick- i thought i was the only one in that situation. i feel like i've wound up in a very long room mate situation then in a marriage most of the time.

i haven't seen anything that was all that offensive in anything anyone posted on here. I do believe that divorce is an option, and i'll admit that i did go into my marriage thinking - well if it doesn't work out i guess there's always divorce. i know for certain that my husband does not have the same attitude and that's why if anything ever does happen - it will be "out of the blue" for him. Does that make me a bad person? I sometimes think it does -but I really hope it doesn't.

For now- I'm comfortable to hang around and see if things get better or worse. My personal wedding vows were not the traditional ones I don't feel bound by for better or for worse even though i try to know the difference between what is and what isn't a big issue in our marriage... it's a learning process.

photochick- im sorry for what you are going thru... Ian and i kinda had the same problem the first couple years of our marriage.. i always had a huge sex drive, and once a day or more was just fine for me.. he on the other hand could go once every two weeks and be satisfied.. i told him that when i married him i gave him the 'key' to my sex life and it was unfair of him to hold back when i enabled him control of it by my beliefs of not cheating in a marriage.. thank goodness he has worked on it and during the last couple years we have gotten to the point where 2 times a week is the norm..it is still a lil less than i would like, but i know he has more than doubled his..and the funny thing, is it has actually jump started his sex drive.. now if we cant have sex during a week for some reason, He is the one that feels slighted lol....im sorry that your husband wont for whatever reason come to a compromise.. you mentioned something about --why should he have to have it when he doesnt want it , and why should you go without when you dont want to.. not an exact quote obviously, but the gist (i hope).. that is where compromise comes in... and for whatever reason (im not in your marriage, therefor i dont knwo why) he is unwilling to compromise.. i do believe in fighting for a marriage with all you have, but you cant be the ONLY one fighting for it...
i wish you luck hun....and again, im sorry for what youre going thru

Thanks guys. As I mentioned, I've edited my post above .. just in case.

kaplods - I didn't specifically think what you wrote was hurtful, so I apologize if it came across that I was targeting your words (since I quoted you).

I just personally believe that a marriage and a divorce can't be boiled down to anything as simple as "you gave up" or "one person saw it as an option". Sometimes it can - sure. I know of people who have gotten married with the idea of "well if it doesn't work out, we'll divorce". I'm not saying those people aren't out there. (And I personally see nothing wrong with that idea if both people agree that it's an option.)

But for some of us, we DID *both* go into the marriage thinking it would be forever and never ever considering divorce as an option. We both came from parents who stayed married for 50+ years (my parents until the death of my mom and his are still married). We didn't marry until we were 31 and 30 respectively - waiting to make sure it was right. We dated for nearly 5 years waiting for him to finish school before we married.

But the situation between us is exacerbated by medication issues that simply CANNOT be resolved for the safety and health of both of us.

We weren't young and impulsive and jumping into this.

And to imply that we're getting divorced because one of us "accepts" that as an option is hurtful. Neither of us accept it. Neither of us want it. But we both recognize that the other choice is for both of us to be unhappy forever.

And maybe my situation is somewhat unique. I'll accept that as well.

FWIW.

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But you've got to accept it, or you'll have just as unhealthy and unhappy a divorce as a marriage.

The first step in getting a divorce is thinking about it - considering it, and eventually accepting it. There's nothing wrong in saying that (it doesn't mean you love the idea or had it in your head before the marriage, or before problems cropped up). If you don't consider and eventually accept divorce as an option - it isn't going to happen (because it is just the steps that have to happen for a divorce to occur). There's nothing accusatory in saying that. Both the good and bad truth is that for a divorce to happen, it has to be an option at least one person thinks of (at some point), and not only thinks of, but considers carefully and finally has to come to accept as the best (or only) choice.

The worst case scenario is two people in an unhappy marriage who neither consider or accept the option of divorce, nor work together to rebuild the marriage. Literally, there are people who kill their spounses because they for one reason or another wouldn't consider, accept (or see the option of) divorce.


My point was never one of "it's never ok to leave," but rather one of "it's ok to stay, and work out problems, even pretty serious problems." Not that it's mandatory to do so, but that it's ok to do so. It's ok, not to divorce, and it's even ok not to consider or accept divorce an option (at least as long as you don't consider and accept options like murder, suicide, harm to the children, or physical or emotional harm of either member of the marriage).

I think you're misunderstanding me. I don't really see any need to continue this conversation further to be honest.

I found EZ's words and attitude to be hurtful and cruel. I still find his attitude to be cruel. But there's no sense in discussing it further becuase I think my words here are being twisted around to mean something I'm not saying.

Thanks for the discussion.

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I do believe in out of the blue. You see 5 years ago I was called home by my husband (was at a WW meeting). I sat down and he said "I love you but I'm not in love with you." We were married 20 years. I never had a clue, he was having an affair for the previous 5 years. I look back now and there were clues but I didn't see them. I don't think I was in denial but I was in love and willing to over-look bad behavior. I don't regret marrying. I have three beautiful (grown) children. I don't miss him, or marriage but I do miss being a family. My ex husband's father did the same thing to his wife.....(genetic cheater?)

Darlene

Did my ex-husband consider divorcing me an option? Of course not, I was his meal ticket! It didn't stop him from treating me, and more importantly, our baby girl like garbage though.
Needless to say, I considered divorce an option and exercised it. It was absoultely the best thing I ever did. I'm married to a wonderful man now, I have two little boys, and my husband has adopted my little girl. My ex-husband, as no surprise, wants nothing to do with her.
As an interesting side note, my parents and my in-laws are still married. Their marriages are hateful and verbally abusive (in my parents case, sometimes physically abusive as well). But they are all very proud of themselves because they're "still married."
Whatever....

That's what I find so crazy, that some people will consider deception, physical and verbal abuse and sometimes even murder as options before divorce.

I don't think it's offensive or finding fault to say that for divorce to happen at least one of the people has to consider divorce at some point. In some marriages, not considering the option of divorce is far more morally repugnant, especially when more heinous options are chosen instead. When I was a probation officer, I had a case where a mother was ignoring the sexual abuse of her children, because she didn't believe in divorce! Yikes!

Ok, I know I said I was walking away from this thread, but I really feel like I need to defend myself here based on my very strong response to what EZ said.

Please note the original quote that got me upset: The key phrases here:
"as a way out"
"fail to do what they need to save the marriage"

Neither my husband and I looked at divorce AS A WAY OUT. Nor did we FAIL TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO DO TO SAVE THE MARRIAGE. What has occurred between us is a basic incompatibility (influenced by time, age, and medication) that CANNOT BE FIXED without one of us compromising beyond what makes either of us happy.

To imply that we took the easy way out and didn't fight for our marriage or "failed to do what we needed to" is cruel and hurtful - because NO ONE knows our exact situation, and NO ONE knows what we did and have done for years to try to figure this out. And that experience has made me realize in a very real and personal way that no one ever knows what ANYONE has or hasn't done - and to say that anyone has "failed to do what the need to do", unless you are intimately involved in the relationship yourself, is rude, cruel, and hurtful.

We did not just blithely say "well we have a problem and I don't want to deal with it, so we're just gonna divorce".

Of course FINALLY, at some point, we had to say ... with tears and pain ... have we reached a point where divorce has become an option? And we had to answer ... again with tears and pain ... yes, at this point we've struggled and fought (separately and together). We've seen doctors and therapists. We've loved each other and still love each other ... but we cannot continue like this. And yes, divorce, no matter how much we don't want to think about it ... is something we now are going to consider.

I'm not saying that AT SOME POINT the option becomes valid.

I am saying that the comment that EZ made with it's blanket judgment that we (or any other couple struggling with this pain) just blew off our marriage and FAILED TO DO WHAT WE NEEDED TO so we could have A WAY OUT ... is unacceptable to me.

And I stand by that.

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First and foremost everyone is different...and I think as long as you never take your relationship for granted...if you always hold that relationship close to you and try to do things to keep it strong...it will stay strong...

I don't think anyone ever is just happy for 15 - 20 - 35 years and then they just wake up one day and buh bye.....nooooo something festers....they aren't happy in the sack...they aren't happy with one or many things in the relationship...and they may let it slide for years...but eventually it wears down on them and then something happens....they meet someone new or they just can't take it anymore, or any number of things

communication is soooo important....and how you do it!

HERE ARE MY POSTS ~

And yours ~

Again, PHOTOCHICK....I apologize for whatever I said to offend you I still fail to see how what I posted caused you to think I made judgement on anyone or implied anyone blew off their marraige...truce?