Thank you, sontaikle. Marilyn Monroe was not a modern 12/14- anyone curious can look up the size creep that has happened in women's clothing measurements. A 12 of the 1950s was something like a 6 today.
So in today's modeling/entertainment industry she'd STILL be considered plus-size thanks to shift in the modelling agency.
I do agree with the sentiment that we have grown fatter in general, but when a man's body is the most ideal form for women's fashion on the runway, well, something is really effed up:
ETA: the article is highly uh, slanted and from a specific view point, but Andrej Pejic is a recent phenomenon in the fashion industry world and its an interesting debate no matter how you look at it.
Last edited by DesertTabby; 01-13-2012 at 08:13 AM.
Now EVERY.SINGLE.MAGAZINE starts with 'How to lose 5lbs in a week', or something to that nature. It truly disgusts me to think about it.
It might be weird, but seeing those articles pisses me off. I'm like, that's NOT a healthy way to lose weight! If your goal is to lose, you know, 30lbs in 30 days, how long are you going to keep that off, especially if you did it on an all-banana diet or something? I buy diet cookbooks for the healthy recipes but I'm nearly embarrassed by the "Lose 12lbs in 2 weeks!" crap on the covers. It makes me feel desperate. Um, if it was that easy to lose 12lbs in 2 weeks, we would all be at goal right now. :P
I think, personally, that having such thin models being the pinnacle of the fashion world encourages young girls (and older ones too) to have unreal expectations about what's "healthy".
I think in the modelling industry, plus sized models should be PLUS SIZED (not plus sized for models, but plus sized for women in general). I resent the attitude that anyone wearing over a size 4 is "plus sized". There are MANY MANY women who have been called "fat" who were not overweight simply because of the stigma attached to us women by the modelling industry. Fashion models are SUPPOSED to be a representative of women in general, but that's no longer the case.
And while I am not by any means suggesting that most models should be plus sized, I think a realistic view of "average" sized women would be MUCH more beneficial, not only to the modelling and fashion industry, but to the self image of millions of women. Yes, even if it's a *gulp* size 8 or even 10!
A neighbour and I were discussing sizes one day, because I said I wanted to be a size 8 when I got down to my goal weight, and she said "wow, just keep an eye on things and don't go too far, I wear a size 10", and she is NO WHERE NEAR plus sized!
Nobody should shame people's bodies--regardless of what end of the spectrum they fall on
Hello, sontickle.
You're totally misunderstanding me. It's sad to me that women WORK to have their bones poking thru their skin/clothes because they allow the industry to lead them to believe that it's what society prefers to see on the runway and in magazines. Now, if one has an eating disorder and cannot HELP but be seriously underweight, then I can certainly sympathize and hope that that individual can get the help they need to become a HEALTHY body weight. I believe it is a disservice to ones body to be chronically underweight, as it is to be chronically overweight. No ones perfect, I certainly know this. I cannot expect for my choice of words to keep everyone here happy, and I won't try. That would mean we'd all have the same exact viewpoints and opinions on each topic discussed, and that just ain't happening! Have a great day
I think, personally, that having such thin models being the pinnacle of the fashion world encourages young girls (and older ones too) to have unreal expectations about what's "healthy".
I think in the modelling industry, plus sized models should be PLUS SIZED (not plus sized for models, but plus sized for women in general). I resent the attitude that anyone wearing over a size 4 is "plus sized". There are MANY MANY women who have been called "fat" who were not overweight simply because of the stigma attached to us women by the modelling industry. Fashion models are SUPPOSED to be a representative of women in general, but that's no longer the case.
And while I am not by any means suggesting that most models should be plus sized, I think a realistic view of "average" sized women would be MUCH more beneficial, not only to the modelling and fashion industry, but to the self image of millions of women. Yes, even if it's a *gulp* size 8 or even 10!
A neighbour and I were discussing sizes one day, because I said I wanted to be a size 8 when I got down to my goal weight, and she said "wow, just keep an eye on things and don't go too far, I wear a size 10", and she is NO WHERE NEAR plus sized!
Certainly I have compassion for young women suffering from anorexia, but they are a minority. Those who look at runway models and cannot understand that it is not something to aspire to have other problems.
And frankly, there are measures being taken to move away from the anorexic build models- the minimum BMI that was instituted being one of them. And look at VS type models- they are healthy. Not scrawny.
Yeah, but the difference is that no one's promoting obesity or holding it up as an example of the ideal woman/man.
I completely agree that there is no place for anorexic models - it's true that should not be seen as normal or standard - but what about shows like Mike & Molly? That show received so much positivity about there being a new type of actor/actress that's not a size two or four, BUT those are two clearly obese...is that really something positive to promote? Where is the uproar? If you had two obvious anorexics playing opposite one another, can you imagine what the backlash would be?
I just think that while we jump to point out anorexic models and get angered by normal weight adults used as plus size models, we don't judge nearly as harshly on obesity? Isn't that as dangerous as anorexia?
We are so afraid that young children will look to these models and think they are the norm - how are they going to think that when, as someone pointed out earlier on this thread that 50% of women are a size 14 or higher...
Do you watch Mike and Molly? I don't watch it regularly, but the episodes that I have seen, there is OFTEN mention of being overweight, or discussing attempts to lose weight. Mike and Molly is not a show about 2 obese people trying to pretend they are not obese. They make it obvious, even in the story line, that they are overweight.
I've never once seen a TV show, with thin actors/actresses talking about how unhealthy they look. How com only overweight actors need to address that?
There was some considerable backlash against the new 90210 because the girls were deemed 'too thin'.
This isn't the first time I've seen a similar subject on 3FC. The outrage against model sizing, the horrible examples it sets (not that I am disagreeing), but the complete disregard for how "US" (being the overweight/obese mother) is never really spoken about despite everyone knowing that the parent role model (particularly the same sex parent) having a far more profound effect.
And then of course the inevitable "skinny bashing" that comes along with it. I've been fat and I've been skinny. Skinny, without any effort, when young. And let me tell you, I've had more than a few 'bigger' girls reduce me to tears telling me that I was too skinny therefore "not a womanly', 'not curvy', etc. This sort of comments is not uncommon on 3FC, perhaps a way for girls to try and make themselves feel better by putting other body types down (oh the irony).
This isn't directed towards anyone in particular, just an observation after having spent a few years here.
The thing is, watchers being upset with an actor/actresses weight is one thing, but actually addressing it in the show is completely a different entity in my mind.
Now, I personally have NOTHING against thin women. I have 1 daughter who is very "willowy", as is my mother in law. And, as a bisexual woman, I find women from all spectrums of the scale to be beautiful and sensual.
I believe "thin bashing" is just as nasty and hateful as "fat bashing". I believe, personally, in a world where size of body is irrelevant, and size of heart is incredibly important.
I think, if we can lose the stigma that's attached to weight, we can improve the lives and self confidence of SO many women, on both ends of the scale.
I guess we have to ask what the purpose of modeling is? For the most part, I would guess it is to sell something, and for purposes of this argument, clothing. To that regard, the models shoudl reflect the target market. If you are trying to sell clothing to size 6 women, model it on size 6 women, not size 12 women, and not on size 0- women. Likewise, if you are trying to sell clothing to size 24 women, model it on size 24 women, not size 14 women with fake padding added to them.
If we're using models as an ideal image inspiration- we have problems. In general. I wish that there were a wide range of models reflecting a large range of body types, but there isnt. No matter my weight, I have a gigantic chest, a short torso, really long legs, and a flat butt. I am never going to find a model that fits that profile exactly. And short women? (who are in fact average sized, for the record) Forget it. Instead, we are always going to be idolizing a body that is out of reach for us, due to our own individual characteristics and limitations. As a whole, we need to stop looking at other people's bodies as inspirations for our own, and start working towards what OUR individual ideal is, and we should be encouraging other women (especially young women) to do the same. Even if I pick a healthy role model, say a female athlete, or even Jillian Michaels. When I'm striving for that- I'm still saying that what I am and who I can be isn't going to be good enough. And I'm setting myself up for constant dissatisfaction because I will always be looking for something else- something to be bigger, something to be smaller, the number in the back of my pants to be different. I will never have a round butt, or really defined calves. My muscle structure isn't built that way. I will never be a size 4. Even at 15% body fat, I'm an 8. And, I look like an 8. I will always naturally have large breasts, and unelss I choose to surgically alter them, they will always have a mind of their own as to how they respond to gravity. I may dye my hair, but my eyes are always going to be green, I am never going to have the freckles I find so adorable on other people, my teeth will always be big, the list goes on.
Models, on their own, don't affect our self esteem any more than a store display, a hanger, or a mannequin should. It's our comparisons to models that hurt our self esteem.
If we're using models as an ideal image inspiration- we have problems. In general. I wish that there were a wide range of models reflecting a large range of body types, but there isnt....
Models, on their own, don't affect our self esteem any more than a store display, a hanger, or a mannequin should. It's our comparisons to models that hurt our self esteem.
My concern with using models as "ideal imagine inspiration" isn't actually for grown women, it's for the 11, 12, 13 year old girls (and older) who THINK that because it's in a magazine, it must be what's expected of them. We can tell them it's not, but sadly, kids tend to think that parent's just don't understand.
And look at VS type models- they are healthy. Not scrawny.
Neither here nor there, but just my opinion: I completely disagree - I think VS models are very "scrawny" looking. When perusing the VS catalog, I quite often grimace at their arms.
My concern with using models as "ideal imagine inspiration" isn't actually for grown women, it's for the 11, 12, 13 year old girls (and older) who THINK that because it's in a magazine, it must be what's expected of them. We can tell them it's not, but sadly, kids tend to think that parent's just don't understand.
I agree completely. And, I think using anorexic models is unhealthy for everyone involved- especially the models!
Outside of that, I still don't think that changing the models in magazines is going to change the outlook for young women until we, as a society, moms, aunts, friends, mentors, dads, etc. work on the mental aspect of it. Otherwise, there is always going to be something- wanting bigger boobs, wanting to lose weight, wanting smaller arms, wanting longer legs, etc. We can put a completley healthy model on the cover, but that's not going to stop a 13 year old from wanting to look like her, and feeling inadequate because she doesn't.
I agree completely. And, I think using anorexic models is unhealthy for everyone involved- especially the models!
Outside of that, I still don't think that changing the models in magazines is going to change the outlook for young women until we, as a society, moms, aunts, friends, mentors, dads, etc. work on the mental aspect of it. Otherwise, there is always going to be something- wanting bigger boobs, wanting to lose weight, wanting smaller arms, wanting longer legs, etc. We can put a completley healthy model on the cover, but that's not going to stop a 13 year old from wanting to look like her, and feeling inadequate because she doesn't.
I agree 100% that we need to change the perspectives of our youth. I think we need to focus on inner beauty, as opposed to outer beauty. I try to do that with my girls, but they are still young (6 and 7).
What it comes down to is, no matter what, we'll always want to change what we have (hence the huge surge in body art). But what I hope for, for my children, is that if they want to change something about themselves, it's with something that marks their individuality (hair colour, tattoos or piercings), rather than something that they hope will make them look just like someone else.
