Snarl -
 

I swear to god if one more person gives people struggling with their weight pithy little one line sayings like

"eat less move more" and my current rant starter

"eat food, not too much, mostly plants"

I am going to blow a gasket.

I love how people who have never struggled have weight loss and weight maintenance all figured out. I am not disrespecting the Pollan book - I think he has a lot of good to say. Just people who think that anyone who struggles with their weight just needs to hear those specific 7 words over and over and over and over.

Haha. Those words a little too oversimplified ya think?

Well, we all know that it is simple. Simple, yet so very difficult. Grrrr.

I find it helpful to think those particular seven words over and over ;)

But I do know what you mean. It's one thing when a concept is helping you and you're working it, it's another when someone else is ignoring the complexities you face, or trying to make THEIR solution YOUR solution.

ennay - I have to agree. We all know why we have a weight problem, we've been dealing with it, for some of us, a very long time. Those that talk about being 'fat' when they gain 5 pounds, I find especially irritating. All the helpful ideas and encouragement that we receive from each other here, is what we need and what will help. By the way, what are the 7 words?

"eat food, not too much, mostly plants"

If it really were that easy, we wouldnt have alarming obesity rates!

Easy and simple aren't the same thing.

I find a lot of concepts that break something down to a simple form are irritating at first. But at some point, I find I'm more ready for it to be that simple. In the end, the simplicity really speaks to you.

But if you're not ready, you're not ready. You have to go with what works for you right now. It eventually changes itself, but you can't force it.

I don't know the book you refer too, but "eat less move more" is true, if you do these two things you will lose weight.

bargoo - I am not saying it is WRONG, just that it ignores the complexity of most peoples problems.

And when said in response to someone who is asking for HELP it very condescending.

Keeping in mind that we are all different, my story agrees with "eat less, move more" saying. I started losing steadily in August when I followed Atkins'72 and did portion control plus upped my activity level. My original loss of 85 pounds in 2003 began with a daily walk of 10k rain or shine.

I also know that those sayings can irritate the heck out of someone in the midst of the struggle. I remember running to catch the bus at 240 and the slim, young bus driver saying "you need to move more". Throwing gas on the fire is what it is because I know the weight gain had complex reasons behind it.
:newyear:

"Eat less, move more" was my mantra all the way down to goal so, for me, it is not over-simplified. It is simply truth, and sometimes truth is simple.

I do not think it matters what short pithy sentence a thin person directs at a heavier person -- often, no matter what they say (Especially if they have never had a weight problem...), it feels like he or she is being condescending. Sometimes it is true and sometimes it isn't, but whenever it happens, it points out to the overweight person that this THIN person thinks he or she is FAT.

It is an uncomfortable, unpleasant feeling, and then when the thinner person follows it up with some little "saying", it seems to add insult to injury. But the truth is that, for most people, unless there is a thyroid problem, a disability or some other medical condition, BOTH those phrases are absolutely accurate. I think they are annoying because they are so simple...but also the truth.

Recently a friend asked me how I lost my weight-- I said "less in, more out" and then immediately after seeing her, called her cell to apologize for being so glib.

And acknowledged how difficult managing weight is.

When I saw her again, a few weeks ago, she repeated my lines and said-- that about sums it up, huh? (She has put on many pounds d/t an injury and steroid treatment) Then she called ME to tell me the next time she went to the cupboard, she thought of me and shut the door.

We ALL go thru it.

:hugs:

100% ture.

But no one ever said it was going to beeasy. Simple yes. Easy no.

One of my favorite quotes:

"If we would just recognize that life is hard, things would be much easier".

We have no way of knowing which phrase or comment is going to spur someone on to make a change in their lives or what will be someone's "lightbulb" moment.

I agree it is the truth. However, there is so much pain in the world and none of us knows what the next guy is dealing with so in mindfulness meditation we are taught to watch our speech and another mantra is to treat all sentient beings with kindness. We know that being hit in the face with reality has rarely changed people's habits. The pithy sayings used did not start my journey. For me it was fear I would die before seeing my niece (whom I raised) get married and have kids. With my goal being reached I am hopeful now of seeing my grand niece/nephew who is coming in 2009!

Blessings!

I tend to agree with Schumeany here (shocker, I know! :lol:).

I think overall we're so messed up about food - as a culture and as a society and as individuals - that anything and everything can be seen as offensive or upsetting. Or pithy. Or whatever.

I read something the other day that made me laugh in it's sheer truthfulness - something about how Americans were the most researched, studied, and informed about food and yet we enjoy it the least.

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Too many people are trapped in what I call joyless striving.

Life does not have to be hard. Weight loss does not have to be hard. I'm not fond of the saying that ends with "choose your hard"--because if we do not have joy along the path, let's just cash in now!

Weight loss DOES take effort. Maintenance once one has lost weight DOES take effort. It's not simple, although those basic rules hold.

However--that said--when I'm up several pounds, those saying really irritate me, too! heh...

Be joyful in what you choose to do. Rejoice in the fact that you can breathe, eat, see the sky, walk, exercise, care for others, and be cared for in return. Be happy that you still have a choice and the ability to change things. These moments are precious, always.

OK, enough preaching here... :blah:
Jay

Jay, I am grateful that I wake up every morning and that I can breathe, and that I am lucky enough to be able to have money to buy the foods that I do. And on and on.

But nevertheless, I still believe that this weight loss/maintenance stuff is HARD. Simple, yet HARD.

Thought of another quote Jay, you may prefer it better. May not. :dunno:

"When I hear someone sigh that Life is hard, I am always tempted to ask them - Compared to what?"

It is a pretty simple concept except most unhealthy eaters are gonna put butter on those plants. :D Learning to make the right changes and apply them to creating new habits, that's where the struggle lies....

I guess my problem with it...and this actually wasnt directed at me, is when people say it in a way like they are saying something earthshaking.

Or in this particular case it was someone saying "DONT COUNT CALORIES just eat food, not too much, mostly plants"

When I get irked is when it is combined with "you dont need to (count calories, measure food, join weight watchers, weigh food, eat salad, dont eat krispy kreme, join a gym, run) JUST (do my little pithy mantra)

That is my real rant...funny sometimes you dont know what ticks you off at first. DONT count calories, just eat less. DONT give up your daily icecream, just eat less. DONT run just move more. DONT join a gym just move more

Which to me comes across as "if you need to do all that to lose weight you must have serious issues"

Yeah. I do.

Without knowing what you asked for, its hard to know what a better response would be.

I mean, people ask me all the time how to lose weight. All. The. Time. And while I try to give a little more information than that, it really is a -simple- thing. I always throw on "simple doesn't mean easy", etc, but if someone asks me how I lost my weight, my response is generally going to be something like "eat less, mostly whole foods, move more, lift weights". Which is SIMPLE, but really, really hard to do a lot of the time. I don't ever JUST say those 9 words, but that is what any advice I will give boils down to.

Then again, if someone came to me and said "I'm really struggling with staying on plan" or "I'm having a hard time managing emotional eating", my response would never in a million years be "Well, just eat less and move more!" So I think a lot of it is context, and without knowing the conversation that sparked the original post, it is hard to say whether it is condescending or not.

On the debate on whether or not this is "hard", I think maintaining weight IS hard, or at least, harder than NOT maintaining weight, for me. But the REST of my life outside of my weight is so much easier that I'm willing to sacrifice that amount of effort...in the end, life ends up easier...the only parts that are HARDER are the eating/exercising parts.

Sign my name to Mandalinn's post. :)

I don't want to scare anyone, so I just want to mention this point the Amanda speaks about. The so-called sacrifices, not even sure if I would call it that, bring about so many fabulous results that it is more then a pleasure to maintain weight loss. There is not one single aspect of my life that has not been improved by my weight loss and now maintenance. So, yes, life is more joyful and easier.

At this point, all the things that I do to keep me at this weight are ingrained in me. I know what to do, so that is EASY.

But hey, it WOULD be easier and less time consuming to not have to shop constantly, and chop and dice and prepare and cook and clean up and on and on. It would be easier (& cheaper) to walk into Mcdonald's and get my meals there. It would be easier for me to not have to pack snacks with me wherever I go and just grab a donut or a muffin or something similar. Be a heckuva lot easier and again, less time consuming if I didn't have to exercise.

But hey, it would be easier if I didn't have to work to get money and I could, I don't know - steal it? But of course stealing money is not an option. Certainly not a good one. On top of it being wrong on so many levels, it's too darn risky. And not too far down the road, it would NOT be a very satisfying life and would actually wind up making life HARDER (umm, think prison).

Same thing with my eating and exericse. I could choose the easier path. But not very far down the road, it would NOT be a very satisfying life and would actually wind up making life HARDER (think disease, depression, low self-esteem, etc..)

I feel bad now. I am asked a lot how I've lost over 130 pounds. The basic simplified version is "Eat less, move more". It's so easy, even a cave man can do it...<grin>. Most heavy people *really* don't want to hear more than that. You can sence their uneasiness almost immediately. Being a fat person, I would ask people how they lost weight in hopes of a new miracle cure. Once I found out it was what I already knew how to do, I'd bow out of the conversation as quickly as possible. I think most thin people ask because they feel obligated and to explain away their staring! Of course there are always the "know it alls" that need to put in their 2 cents. When that happens I say something like..."Thank you for the advice, when I get stuck in a rut, I'll give you a call" ...lol.

My favorite is when someone asks me how I lost weight in a group setting, and then someone else answers for me...Gurr, that is irritating.

That's why I modified my rant. It's about when someone does say "I've been doing Calorie counting" for example and the response is "Dont calorie count, just eat less"

How is that helpful? Dont do a specific method of eating less, just do this nebulous method.

My specific rant is the belittling of the current effort, but not really providing anything concrete to go on. I mean what is the first thing we do here if someone says "I've been eating pretty good and not that much but I cant lose weight" We say "quantify...how much are you REALLY eating"

I don't mind honest, unbiased opinions, whether I agree with them or not. I love talking about weight loss and exercise with people who are really open and honest about the topic, all aspects of it, including how it can simultaneously horrendously difficult and complicated, and yet stupifyingly simple and occasionally even easy. I don't expect anyone (especially if they haven't experienced weight loss struggles themselves) to understand that their "advice" may not be new or profound to me.

What I do hate, is when the advice (whether I agree with it or not, either in theory or in practice) is delivered with condescencion or scorn. Now, I won't discount the possibility that I may occasionally interpret such emotions when they weren't intended, but I'm generally not paranoid or easily offended. In fact, I'm usually pretty unflappable, and am more likely to take such advice at face value when an insult was actually intended. But I've found that for the folks who really were trying to insult me, refusing to be insulted drives them nuts (so it can be the best "revenge").

I've gotten some good and true advice, and some bad and completely ridiculous advice that was well intended, but delivered poorly. That doesn't bother me, in the least. However whether the advice is true/good or complete B.S., when it is intended as a "how could you be so stupid as to not know that".... well I don't have much patience for it.

When I've received THAT kind of advice, frankly it has gone in one ear and out the other, and I avoid the subject with that person in the future. However, if someone is trying to be truly helpful, even if they give (and firmly believe) advice that is either oversimplified or even utter garbage (you have to eat grapefruit three times a day, or drink a glass of vinegar before each meal....) I don't mind and in fact like talking about the subject. In fact, I wish that weight loss, health, and fitness sometimes weren't such a taboo subject, as I've had some of my best conversations with perfect strangers, but it's funny how those conversations often started - with one or both of us, testing the waters to make sure the person isn't going to be offended. Heck, I think sometimes it would be more socially acceptable to talk about extreme fetish porn than weight loss.

Yeah. I'm with you on that.

It's funny ... two of the women in the office across the hall were talking about joining WW yesterday and they hollered across the way and asked if I'd come offer my opinion. One of them has worked there for years and knew me back before I lost weight. One of them has only known me for about a year. The conversation went a lot like this:

#1: Would you join WW for this?
Me: I know a lot of people who have joined and love it. I've done it in the past and it just isn't my thing.
#2: Well what did you do to lose all your weight?
Me: Counted calories, ate really fresh un-processed food as much as possible, and made sure to go to the gym regularly.
#2: I KNEW you were going to say that. I can't do that.
#1: Why not?
#2: I can't eat that "healthy" stuff. That brown rice stuff and vegetables and .. you're gonna tell me I have to exercise right?
Me: Well, yeah. (smiling)
#1: I just want to join someplace and have them do it for me. PC if you were going to join somewhere, where would you join.
Me: Well ... erm ... I wouldn't. I don't do so well with joining things. If they tell me I can't have something, it makes me want it. It's easier for me to count my own calories.
#2: That's just too hard.
#1: Yeah. I think I'm going to join WW.

Now how much you wanna bet that in Feb they're going to come back and say WW doesn't work for them?

But I'm really reluctant to go into more detail than that because I know the response I'm going to be met with across the board is "I can't do that" (which really means I *won't* do that). That and Woman #2 is always trying some weird new fad. Now she wants to cut out all dairy ... because dairy is making her fat. Last year it was becoming veggie (except for some chicken and some fish and well a hamburger every once in a while).

Oy. :rolleyes:

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PC, just before Christmas I had that EXACT same conversation with one of the checkers at my grocery store...down to the thing where I said I didn't like to join things because I am not big on other people telling me what to do or what I can eat...I prefer being responsible for my own decisions...but that I did know people who joined WW and it worked great for them. It just wasn't my thing.

Then, however, she went on to say that all that weight melting off of me was just incredible. That it wasn't fair I had lost so fast and that just counting my calories and getting some exercise had worked for me. She told me she has tried every fast, cleanse and new diet there is, and she always gains it back or doesn't lose an ounce. Hello? It did not melt off of me...I burned every one of those little *******s. :) And five months is a good pace, but it is not "so fast". It was steady, but about 2 pounds a week which is well within the realm of reasonable. As for the fads, I just wanted to throw my hands in the air. I wanted to look at her and, yes, say, "EAT LESS AND MOVE MORE AND STOP THINKING DRINKING LEMON WATER FOR A WEEK IS THE ANSWER TO ALL YOUR PROBLEMS!" That is not what I said, because I know this is hard, but I do not like having my weight loss discounted simply because I managed to lose it in a reasonable, sane way that did not starve me or purge my insides or whatever. What I did say was that if she was interested I would be happy to write up the general plan I followed for her...she said not right now. With the holidays and everything, she doesn't want to start a new "diet" until the New Year. I just nodded and wished her good luck.

I do understand why some people think they "can't" do certain things, when they really mean they aren't willing to, but even so alot of them wouldn't have to make many of the changes they think they would (especially not all at once).

If you don't like "that healthy stuff, like brown rice," so don't eat brown rice. There's no "rule" (well there is, but the rule is B.S.) that changes toward a healthy diet have to all be made in one day.

Same with adding the dreaded "exercise." Who is saying that you need to put in an hour on the treadmill every day before it "counts?" (Well, a lot of people... but they're wrong).

Eat healthier foods and eat fewer calories
This doesn't mean you have to go from eating 4000 calories of junk to eating 1000 calories of brown rice and raw veggies. To lose 1 lb a week, you only have to give up 500 calories a day, and if you're eating alot of high fat and high sugar stuff, you can often save those 500 calories eating what seems like more food. Yes, it means swapping out some of your favorites and trying some new foods, but 500 calories a day is not such a gigantically terrible sacrifice. And if it does seem so, then why not only cut 250 calories a day and lose 1/2 pound a week.

Exercise More

You can't do an hour on a treadmill? What are you able AND willing to do? So do that. Even if it's 5 minutes, it's a start.


I think too many people are afraid of change, because they're intimidated by the changes they think are required. They think they have to do a complete overhaul on their life, overnight. And some people may succeed, doing just that, but I think that starting with small changes is for many folks more doable, and yet they don't consider it, because the small changes don't yield impressive enough results.

So when people hear "eat healthier, eat less, and move more," they translate it mentally into something like "eat nothing but raw greenery, eat no foods I like, and spend at least an hour, ideally two every day pushing myself physically until it hurts really bad and I can barely move the next day."

The mistranslation, I think is the real barrier to weight loss - people assuming that they must "suffer terribly" in order to make changes.

I think there's also the element of "I can't do X until Y". Like "I can't" woman from across the hall. She won't even do the 5 minutes on the treadmill. We were talking about families going to a local park for their Christmas show. She said her boyfriend wanted her to walk down the mountain with him (it's a walking trail down this big limestone dome - not a real mountain). And she said "But I can't until I've been exercising a while."

So we're kinda giving her crap about it ... you can't walk down a paved trail until you've been to the gym? So are you going to the gym? Well, no I can't until after Christmas. Why not? Because I can't get proper gym clothes until ... etc., etc., etc. So what about walking around your neighborhood. See the gym clothing excuse. :)

Etc. For some people it doesn't matter if it's big or small ... they just "can't".

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I've been that person who 'can't do x until y' in the past, and it got me exactly nowhere. The exercise clothes used to be a big thing for me - I couldn't go to the gym until I had exercise clothes that looked 'presentable', I couldn't get 'presentable' exercise clothes until I lost some weight so I didn't feel like one of those over stuffed sausages. (Obviously, I wasn't shopping for the right exercise clothes, either... ;) ) Well, today I went to the local park in hot pink spandex bikerish shorts, an orange t-shirt left over from my stint working for The Home Depot and a thin purple and grey sweatshirt. Felt great, had a great time, didn't care how I looked. I passed one woman a few times who obviously had the 'presentable' new exercise clothes. Didn't look like they were doing her much good as she sat on the bench talking on the phone. :)

Right now DH is in a 'just can't' place. It is hard to get out of once you get entrenched in it.

Ah yes, the dreaded "I can't until..."

I think seperating the true "I can't"s from the "I don't want to until"s is very difficult for many people. Some of it because it's drilled into us by social expectations, and others because of that mistranslation I was talking about and other mental games we play with ourselves, like adding conditions onto our goals.

I've done it with writing my novel. When I was working, I said "I can't write my novel, because I don't have the time. If I had the time, I would write." Well, now I'm on disability and have all of the time in the world, and I'm still not sitting down to wrie because I'm not making the time.

We hear people (sadly of all sizes) who say they "can't" swim because they "can't" be seen in public wearing a bathing suit.

What you don't want to do, or are afraid to do, certainly can feel like a true "can't," but it isn't. Knowing the difference, sometimes is the first step.

Hey kaplods, I think your novel and my novel should get together and kick us both in the rears.

Ironically, I have been using my weight loss as an excuse not to get back to my writing. I have pretty much set my book aside for the last six months, except for editing, because the time I used to spend writing -- after my kids went to bed -- I now spend exercising. But I KNOW that if I worked at it, I could find a time each week that was mine for writing...I just haven't done it.

I heard Bob Greene say "if you eat less and move more, you WILL lose weight". Bob Greene is an expert in the physical fitness field. That statement is the truth, no matter how over simplified a statement it might be. I do eat less and I do that by counting calories and I also move more, not as much as I would like because of an injury and a serious illness. I have lost a significant amount of weight by counting calories, thus eating less.

I think this is, all in all, a fabulous discussion. I'm perfectly happy to believe that weight loss is simple and complex all at the same time. I'm comfy with paradox :)

It's not only that they can't or they don't, but that they won't.

And nevermind what they won't do, what are they willing to do? Sadly, not enough. Willingness is very important. There's many, many things one has to be willing to do in order to lose weight. Exercise & be active, monitor calories or have some sort of restriction somewhere, pass up on temptation, STICK to a plan (be consistient) & try new things, for starters.

I think simple intimidations stops people from doing a lot of things they could do. Fear of being unable to accomplish a goal, keeps many people from trying.

I think that the willingness to change would be less of an obstacle for many folks, if they realized how small the changes can be to get started. No, you can't lost 100 lbs, become a marathon runner, a concert pianist, or a published novelist in a week. Each begins with much smaller steps, but people think they have to make HUGE steps and make dramatic progress immediately, and if they aren't able to do both, they give up, because "it's no use."

I just wanted to say hi to Ennay! I haven't seen you around forever.

Great discussion. Personally I have lazed myself into a nice holiday gain... I haven't been counting or for that matter doing much exercise at all. Excuses, excuses. I KNOW what to do, but I have to do it. And, I will.