Maybe that's because a formerly obese person that gets to "overweight" is statistically likely to be healthier than they were before, whereas someone who was overweight and gets to the "underweight" category, again statistically, may not be?
Also, someone who was obese and gets to the overweight category is a lot healthier than someone going up that chart. The chart is presumably based on the general population, which is not so full of losers & maintainer, and there are more and more gainers all the time. Whereas as here on 3FC, we have more losers & maintainers.
So you will find a lot more people at 3FC who are still overweight according to BMI charts, but who are very healthy, compared to people from the general population who have the same overweight BMIs.
I've been trying to lose weight most of my life (with varying degrees of success, mostly short term), and after three plus decades of dieting, my views are a lot different now then they were in the past.
Mostly, social and cultural views haven't changed all that much - thin = good, valuable and beautiful and fat = bad, worthless, and ugly.
While lip service is paid to losing weight in a healthy manner, fad and crash diets are still popular, as reflected in the popular women's magazines.
What does any of that have to do with this discussion? If it were not so - and people never felt that their worth was wrapped up in their weight and appearance, then unreasonable goals would be much less of a problem. Ideally, health and fitness would always be the primary goal.
But weight loss is complicated. For most people, especiallyl women, it's not like deciding to eat more oatmeal to lower your cholesterol - a practical and pragmatic decision without judgement attached. Instead we wrap it in judgements and emotions, which make drastic and even irresponsible methods of weight loss more attractive. That we often expect our lives to become virtually perfect at a certain weight, makes the process even more of a mess.
I LOVE that for the most part, 3FC members (especially those who have been around a while) encourage a more positive approach to weight loss than is generally available in the "real" world. Acknowledging that obesity and overweight have negative social, emotional, and physical consequences and yet refusing to judge a person's worth by the scale, and refusing as a result to endorse weight loss "by any means." That to me is true SUPPORT.
In that sense, I think that mildly unrealistic goals (rather than physically dangerous or life threatening ones) tend to fix themselves the more a person becomes a part of this community. Many of us here learn that we need to build self-confidence and self-esteem (if we have those issues) as we lose the weight -rather than assuming or expecting we will feel better about ourselves, or learn to after we lose weight.
In some ways, this arena has incredible advantages over face-to-face support groups like WW and TOPS and such. I'm not discounting the benefits of these groups, as I NEED the accountability of face-to-face. However, the advantages here are that (at least for me) I can more easily learn from people with vastly different experiences than my own. I don't bristle when someone who is half my age, or someone with less than 10 lbs to lose, gives me advice -- mostly because I read and contemplate the advice before (or whether or not) I notice their age, or current weight.
And yet, my experiences do affect my advice and my evaluation of another person's perspective. To a degree, I cannot relate to someone with only a few pounds to lose, because that has never been me (God willing, one day I will). I also can't quite comprehend unrealistically low goals, because I can't quite envision becoming just "obese" and not "morbidly obese."
And on the other hand, I feel so badly for people who deny themselves the joy of swimming at any weight, because I never have. Sometimes the walk to the water felt like a death march, with all eyes upon me, but once in the water I felt safe and covered (which is ironic, since I realize that water is transparent), and free from the constraints of gravity, I could push my body to the limit in ways I couldn't on land. Even very overweight, I could often surpass the swimming ability of normal weight friends. I so want to spread this joy to others, and I'm horrified that some people are so traumatized by a few pounds (be it five or 200) that they won't even purchase a bathing suit or consider getting in the water.
Soapbox? Yes I get carried away, but there are so many ways to express our opinions without telling people that theirs are "wrong." In fact, directly disagreeing tends to put a person on the defensive, and they become more attached to their opinions (there's even been research to prove this). Offering our experiences, asking questions, telling stories and jokes, ranting and crying on each other's shoulders - they all may seem insignificant when taken individually, but all and all they add up to persuasive, powerful stuff.
We have something here that exists no where else. A positive, safe "haven" of people of wide-ranging experiences and goals, but all here for a common purpose, to lose weight (safely and responsibly). Now, the safely and responsibly part isn't always part of each of our individual goals, but the group as a whole, and many of it's members DO stress it, so that tends to start to rub off on people who stick around for a while.
Ok, I've done it again and gotten FAR, FAR off-topic; to the extent that my original point may have gotten lost. I may even have forgotten what it was.
Ah, yes: Our responsibility here is primarily to ourselves, using the forum as we need to in order to accomplish our goals, and yet by sharing our experiences and all the other stuff, the side benefit is that we are likely to help others accomplish their goals, too. The value of 3FC cannot be calculated, it's truly priceless.
If it were not so - and people never felt that their worth was wrapped up in their weight and appearance, then unreasonable goals would be much less of a problem. Ideally, health and fitness would always be the primary goal.
I LOVE that for the most part, 3FC members (especially those who have been around a while) encourage a more positive approach to weight loss than is generally available in the "real" world. Acknowledging that obesity and overweight have negative social, emotional, and physical consequences and yet refusing to judge a person's worth by the scale, and refusing as a result to endorse weight loss "by any means." That to me is true SUPPORT.
In that sense, I think that mildly unrealistic goals (rather than physically dangerous or life threatening ones) tend to fix themselves the more a person becomes a part of this community. Many of us here learn that we need to build self-confidence and self-esteem (if we have those issues) as we lose the weight -rather than assuming or expecting we will feel better about ourselves, or learn to after we lose weight.
there are so many ways to express our opinions without telling people that theirs are "wrong." In fact, directly disagreeing tends to put a person on the defensive, and they become more attached to their opinions (there's even been research to prove this). Offering our experiences, asking questions, telling stories and jokes, ranting and crying on each other's shoulders - they all may seem insignificant when taken individually, but all and all they add up to persuasive, powerful stuff.
We have something here that exists no where else. A positive, safe "haven" of people of wide-ranging experiences and goals, but all here for a common purpose, to lose weight (safely and responsibly). Now, the safely and responsibly part isn't always part of each of our individual goals, but the group as a whole, and many of it's members DO stress it, so that tends to start to rub off on people who stick around for a while.
Our responsibility here is primarily to ourselves, using the forum as we need to in order to accomplish our goals, and yet by sharing our experiences and all the other stuff, the side benefit is that we are likely to help others accomplish their goals, too. The value of 3FC cannot be calculated, it's truly priceless.
Please pardon my cutting and snipping of your post, and please forgive me if I snipped something that changed the context you meant to convey, but these particular points really resonated with me and I just wanted to say well put
There is one example I am going to mention - Josephine aka Tyler Durden. I do know her height and goal weight because we often post in the same exercise forum - she is 5'10" and her goal weight is 140. I am measly 5'8" and barely a half (I was crushed when I recently found out that I am actually NOT full 5'9" and I haven't adjusted my profile yet) and I think that once I make it to 175, I will set another goal of 160 and then again I will reevaluate it once I am there.
That would still make me 20 lbs heavier than Jo and she is taller {I hope Jo is ok with me quoting her specs here }. But I also saw her pics and I know she runs long distances, so why not.
Maybe it also has something to do with some people (like myself) preferring to set a bit more conservative goals while other people ..... boldly go where no one has gone before (to quote Jean-Luc Picard ).
Actually, 140 WAS my "conservative" goal setting! So you have to let me stay in the Conservative Club with you, I'm NOT turning in my badge! Lol. I expect I'll end up closer to 130 when all is said and done -- at the low end of the CDC's stats for a normal BMI for my height. Is that "too thin" or "unrealistic", nope. Nor am I bowing to the "celebrity cult of personality" when setting my goals. I have things I want my body to do, and it will do them better at that weight.
I can't say what is right for another person, particular someone I know only from posts on an internet forum, but I know what is right for me and I'd certainly hate to think someone looked at my stats and thought I was setting unrealistic or unhealthy goals! But I guess that could happen, and I'll live with that. That being the case, in general I'd advise people to be very careful about making blind judgments about other people's goal weights!
Honestly I rarely look at weight goals ... I mostly look at start weights and current weights when giving advice. It's more pertinent to the advice I'm giving most of the time. I tend to think that most people choose their goal weight as a rough guideline or even a guess ... at least at first. So I rarely base my advice from that standpoint.
Most of what I respond to is what is written in the posts by posters. I guess from that perspective, goal weight is irrelevant from *my* support stndpoint.
goal weights dont' concern me as much as a person's attitude.
someone who's 5'4" and wants to weigh 110 pounds (and currently weighs 125) and is struggling at 1200 calories and 2 hours a day of exercise to get the weight off concerns me.
someone who is 5'4 160 pounds and wants to weigh 110 and just starting not sure yet... i'm more inclinded to let them learn for themselves what their weight should be
weight needs to be about life too. a quality of life is important. if a person's entire life is focused on a specific number, there may be some concern warranted.
weight needs to be about life too. a quality of life is important. if a person's entire life is focused on a specific number, there may be some concern warranted.
I agree, but it can hard to make that judgment only based on what someone posts on a weight-loss forum! I mean, this is where we talk about WEIGHT, and well, losing it! Someone may seem obsessive about their weight on our forum, but may sound just as obsessive about knitting on their Let's-All-Knit forum.
This is a fantastic post-- thanks to TwynnB for starting it. I know I'm not the only one that was kinda wondering the same thing. I am on this forum with a good friend and we talk about this issue a lot. I'm glad to hear that when someone is truly sort of going into the realm of the unhealthy that the moderators try to gently reign them in.
I think that overall,we all try to be sensitive to everyone's goals, and the vast majority of us realize that there is a lot more to weight than a number.
I love the 'accountability' of my 'ticker' on this site, it keeps me on track. And I love to look at others 'tickers' and see how they're progressing-- its all very inspiring. And while I know that my goal of 165-160 is still technically still 'overweight' (I think 159 is 'normal') I know that that is a good goal for me personally. But I realize that that might be way too big for some, and small for others. But gee, that's always how its going to be. But I can still try to be sensitive to others that have very different goals than I have.
Very interesting post. All of you ladies are so inspiring.
I agree, but it can hard to make that judgment only based on what someone posts on a weight-loss forum! I mean, this is where we talk about WEIGHT, and well, losing it! Someone may seem obsessive about their weight on our forum, but may sound just as obsessive about knitting on their Let's-All-Knit forum.
true but i think it goes both ways.
i feel judged as a failure because my final goal is so high...
I agree, but it can hard to make that judgment only based on what someone posts on a weight-loss forum! I mean, this is where we talk about WEIGHT, and well, losing it! Someone may seem obsessive about their weight on our forum, but may sound just as obsessive about knitting on their Let's-All-Knit forum.
A fellow Josephine I see. Great point btw.
I don't personally don't focus on the persons goal weight but, more so what they are doing to meet the goal. If it's quite apparent that they are using unhealthy methods (what some see as unhealthy may not be considered unhealthy to the next person though) to accomplish their goal then I'd possibly offer a little friendly advice, maybe hint a little at first, if the person becomes highly defensive then I wouldn't say anything else.
Like someone else stated, nobody is obligated to post.
Last edited by bananapancakes; 08-07-2008 at 04:35 PM.
i feel judged as a failure because my final goal is so high...
I've never seen someone on this foum suggest that someone needs to lose more then their goal? Hey I have a goal weight of 160 which puts me on the higher end for my height also but I don't see lower weights and think man I need to get there? If you're happy with your goal then you cannot let what others think bum you out.
Back to topic - I think the rules specifically state in the forum that UNLESS ASKED we don't really need to criticize others, their goals, and diet. The mods reserve the right to delete or edit any posts that seem unhealthy. I know what works for me and will share that with those that ask. For stuff I see that I don't think is healthy - I just hope that person gets a clue soon.
I honestly believe that we should not get too excited about goal weights in the earlier stages of weight loss -- often your body will decide where it wants to be and hopefully most will listen to it.
When I think of all the time I spent during my twenties (about 40 years ago) trying to get from 125 to 110 and all the long term damage I did to my metabolism with weird diets, I could kick myself. I think I actually achieved that 110 for about a 2 week period, once . . . and then never looked back until recently. NOW . . . that same 125 would be a dream come true . . . I'll be happy (at 65) to just make it down to "overweight" instead of "obese" But I don't really know what I'll feel like once I get there.
Having said all that -- I definitely agree that 3FC should encourage good eating habits as much as possible, but definitely not dwell on start weights or finish weights too much -- this is a journey to better health and fitness, and most of the participants around this big place fully realize that, at least IMHO.
I've often felt this way too. Not so much that my stated goal weight has been criticised, but statements made directly or indirectly that seem to judge or criticise my decision not to put every ounce of my energies into losing weight, or sometimes even my deciding not to ever judge myself as "bad" for having eaten a particular something or not losing weight on the fast track, and especially for not regretting choices I made in the past that might have interfered with my weight loss.
During graduate school, I discovered "fat acceptance" philosophy and stopped dieting. It was one of the BEST things ever for me. I learned to really like myself, and didn't gain (or lose) weight. I put my energy and focus into my degree program and didn't give a thought to my weight except in passing. WOW, what a wonderful glimpse into a normality I'd never known could exist - if only I had found it at 160 lbs instead of 308.
I don't regret it a bit. That experience made me who I am, and in looking back at a lot of my choices, the idea that "fat and lazy" are so often linked is rather ridiculous. It's only been when I haven't been busy doing many, many other things I felt were more important that I've ever been able to lose weight.
So now, I really am lazy (well, maybe just exhausted) being on disability, and am finally having the luxury of taking care of myself as a full time job.
The thing is that I may NEVER be anyone's idea of successful at this, except my own. If I decide to change my goal weight to 200 lbs or even 250 lbs, and decide to stay there, and even if it takes me 10 years to get there, or I never get there, there will be plenty to judge and criticise. There's not much I can do about that. I have to ignore it, and do and want what I know is best for me.
Generally, when people are harshly critical, they're ignoring huge parts of their own lives that could just as easily warrant the same level and severity of judgement. Not casting stones, is VERY, VERY important here. We can share small bits of each others' journeys, but we can't walk in each other's shoes.
I have a few random thoughts in no particular order ...
I wish I could come up with the perfect thing to say to the poster who wants to be unhealthily slight. Something that would encourage her to stay long enough to learn healthier, wiser ways.
Although I care, it's not my responsibility to attempt to correct those I deem to be wrong.
About celebrites and their stated weights ??? Why would we believe what anyone prints?
If I get blown off once ... I shouldn't bother going back.
In order to have a ticker or even one of those s/c/g thingies ... you have to post something, some number. It's not necessarily one that's been carefully considered.
A few posters have touched on this one .... we have no idea what we will look like at a given weight. So what if your goal is 145 but when at 152 you fit perfectly into Levis 619's a size 10??? You can change a goal.
Nobody believes how much I weight anyhow.
I answer if I have something to say that has not been said.- OR- If something already said is fabulous enough to repeat.
Nessa? Nobody with a brain in their head thinks a 70 lb weight loss is failure. You're doing excellent work.
Josephine and Alena touched on this one ... pounds are easy to count and compare. Goals are hard to assess any other way. I just want a stable weight that fits in nice clothing. No rolls please! No control top hose if I can help it.
If you see a thread that is disconcerting ... alert the mods. Everybody knows about that little red exclamation mark, yes?
Yup, no particular order and that's all I've got right now.
}. But I also saw her pics and I know she runs long distances, so why not. 
Lol. I expect I'll end up closer to 130 when all is said and done -- at the low end of the CDC's stats for a normal BMI for my height. Is that "too thin" or "unrealistic", nope. Nor am I bowing to the "celebrity cult of personality" when setting my goals. I have things I want my body to do, and it will do them better at that weight. 
