Mind Over Matter?
 

We all know what we should be doing to lose weight, so why don't we do it? It's not like it's a well-guarded secret, I doubt if there is a forum member who doesn't know exactly what to do to lose weight.

So why do we all struggle? Why do we need DVDs, slimming clubs, books and forums like this - and then still fall by the wayside?

My view:

We don't have the ability to value and prioritise long term results over short term impulses that provide a quick "hit".

Instead of excahnging exercise and diet tips, should we be searching for help, methods and techniques for coping with this weakness of pandering to our "want it now" desires?

I believe that if we could defeat this aspect of our behaviour, weight loss would be a facile process limited only by the measure of time it takes to burn off the required excess body fat.

So I would like to ask for contributions from members who can offer tips, advice, support - anything that may go towards easing this destructive habit.

Please, pitch in with your thoughts on this.

I think that a lot of the emotional aspects wrt to weight loss are covered in the Chicks in Control threads. You may want to do some reading there to see what's been covered in previous posts.

Also, it is true that our culture associates food with rewards and with celebration. Since the brain is such a powerful organ, it holds on to these associations that we grew up with, and it's difficult to break the pattern.

I've read a bunch of articles on the struggle with weight loss, and some of them look back at prehistoric humans. The articles point out that there are two things that are normal for our bodies and minds that do not translate into our modern world.

The first is feast-famine--since back in the day, we had to hunt food and food wasn't always accessible, we made sure to eat as much as possible when it was available because we didn't know when we'd be able to eat again. Now food is always accessible to us, but for some reason we may not register that in our minds and bodies.

The second is that we are not programmed to expend "unnecessary" physical energy, since the task of getting food was so exhausting (chasing after animals, etc) that we had to save our energy. Therefore, the idea of going for a run for the sake of going for a run is against human nature.

Now, I don't know if there is any truth to these theories, especially since not everyone struggles with weight, but I think it's interesting to think about, and it might help us recognize our behavior so that we can change it to improve our health.

3fc chicks do have lots of good experience and they have shared many tips along these lines.

But if you like to sit down with a book, it seems like some weight management authors are catching on -- to focus on mindset and behavior modification -- rather than particular diets. Two books I would highly recommend...

The Beck Diet Solution - train your brain to think like a thin person (Beck) -- Not a diet -- supposed to be used with the diet of your choice. Provides a 42 step program based on Cognitive Therapy designed to adjust your mindset about weight management (and behaviors). (3fc has a support thread for followers of this plan, btw.)

The Thin Commandments Diet - the 10 no-fail strategies for permanent weight loss (Gullo) -- This book does contain a diet you can follow (I don't) but can be used with any diet. The body of the book provides lots of good strategies for changing your mindset and targeting problem behaviors. Less formal than Beck (no program) but contains more backstory.

There are also many physiological reasons that make it difficult to lose weight. It isn't just a matter of willpower. Science is starting to disprove the 'lazy' fat person who knows what to do but won't stick to it.

I would suggest reading a few books: Rethinking Thin, The Hungry Gene, and Fighting the Obesity Epidemic. Interesting reads, if not a little depressing.

It's all about learning to work with our bodies and listen to what the body is trying to tell you.

Here's an aspect that I don't see mentioned very often. Our culture (in the West) is largely one of vicarious experiences. The reason has to do with media, and I include not only movies and TV but also newspapers and books.

I think it's possible to read something or watch something and actually feel as though you've done something, when you haven't done anything. Because you've seen it, it's as though you've participated in it.

At no other time in history, for example, have masses of people been able to feel upset over, say, an airplane crash in a distant country. Or cheer about a bicycle race in another distant country.

So--I think that reading about losing weight, watching programs about losing weight, thinking about losing weight, discussing losing weight, and theorizing about losing weight are all well and good. They can help point us in a direction. But, sooner or later one has to stop the vicarious distraction and actually do something real in one's daily life. Oh yes, people know what they "should" do... I think it's very hard for many people to make that leap.

The reasons we "can't" are varied and individual. (All reasons are just excuses dressed up as facts.) They include:

1. I have no time. (To get the foods together, to do exercise.)
As one 3FC member once said, we all have exactly the same amount of time. It's still amazing to me that I actually do have time to go to the gym every day. I could have sworn that I didn't.

2. I can't (won't) eat X, Y, Z. (Low carb, low fat, restricted calories, six times a day, every two hours, vegetables, etc.)
OK, I think that's pretty obvious. You'll do what you have to do.

3. I can't afford it. (Weight loss foods, Weight Watchers, a gym membership, an exercise DVD.)
Anyone who can go eat at a fast food place a few times a week can afford all of the above.

4. I'm too tired after all I do to exercise.
Sometimes people think exercise has to be a big deal. It doesn't. Anyone who is reasonably able-bodied can do a little walking to get started.

Well, stuff like that. Our member Meg once said, "If you want it, you'll find a way. If you don't, you'll find an excuse." I think ultimately that's what it comes down to.

OK, getting off my :soap: ;)

Jay

I don't think this is an issue with weight only. I believe people, in general, know what they should do in all other aspects of life. Think financial matters for example - do you ever watch "Till Debt Do Us Part" or "Maxed Out"? Shouldn't all people know that they are not supposed to buy stuff if they actually cannot afford (by being able to afford it I DON'T mean having enough credit on a credit card) and yet the amount of consumer debt is mind-blowing. People spend money that they don't have on things they don't need and don't have space for (oh yeah, eventually, they will have to buy a bigger house in order to accommodate all the junk and sink into an even deeper debt). And why? for the same reason - because the purchases fill some emotional voids, satisfy some emotional needs, and so on.

I feel I discuss the mental aspects of weight loss frequently -- both here and IRL, which I think encompass the immediacy you discuss, but also other issues (just take a look at the body image forum for some other examples of how our mind affects our perceptions).

As a social/cultural psychologist, I'm simply fascinated with how our minds affect this whole process. But that certainly doesn't make me immune to the effects.

I think we as a society overemphasize the physical part of the process, because it's something we can wrap ourselves around easier. When people ask me how I lost weight, the simple answer is the physical one "Eat less, move more." But the real question is how have I been able to finally overcome all my obstacles to both take the weight off and keep it off? I wish I knew, really, because I do agree that knowledge isn't enough.

Broken record alert - I've said this SOOOO many times.

I agree that knowledge is not enough. Not even close. I really and truly believe that it all boils down to - you have to want it badly enough. Because when you do, you will find a way, no matter how difficult, to overcome all those other obstacles.

I would disagree some with the "we all know how" part.

Here and on other boards I read, the sheer number of people - adults, not kids, and not even young adults, but people my age and parents who are feeding kids - who know NOTHING about nutrition makes my mind boggle.

Of the people who lack nutrition knowledge:

Many of them haven't even the vaguest idea what their calorie level should be (is 5000 too much, is 500 too little).

Many of them think that it's ok to eat nothing but junk as long as they stay within a set calorie level.

Many of them don't know what nutrients their body needs or what foods contain those nutrients so they eat whatever is handy.

Most of them have heard either low fat or low carb ... but they dont' really know what that means. So they cut out all fats, not realizing that our bodies need healthy fats to metabolise our food. Or they cut out all carbs mindlessly and not think about the healthy carbs they need to fuel their bodies.

That's one of the reasons that all the diet books that tell you what to eat and when to eat it are so successful, IMO. People are not taught nutrition, they don't understand it, and they just want someone to tell them what to eat, rather than figuring it out for themselves.

Our kids are inundated with advertising that says a McDonalds hamburger is a healthy meal - especially if you have it with a side of mandarin orange wedges instead of fries. We're all told that many restaurants have "healthy" choices on their menus and then are served food swimming in dressing, butter, oil, and cheese.

HOw many of the successful women here on 3FC have come back at one time or another and said that they truly didn't understand that what they were eating was bad until they began to eat well and felt better.

Speaking just for the US, as a nation, we ignore nutrition in favor of processed foods with added vitamins and think that's ok. If we eat fortified cereal ... that's nutrition, isn't it? If we eat diet food that has had the fat removed and vitamins added ... then we'll lose weight, right?

I don't think a lot of people know how to lose weight or eat right. And that's WHY when someone really becomes determined, it's so hard. It's not just becoming committed, many people have to rethink their entire knowledge base about food .. what's healthy, what's good, how to prepare it, how to buy it.

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Photochick -- those are good points. It's easy to overgeneralize.

But there is still the question of why many people who do have a pretty good grasp of nutrition, mastery of the mechanics of weight loss, knowledge of the health benefits of good nutrition and exercise, etc, etc, STILL fail -- either to lose weight or to maintain weight loss.

I don't think it can be boiled down to one or two phenomena. But I think there is now a wider appreciation for the social and psychological aspects of the problem. With strategies to target individual issues, hopefully more people will succeed in the future (including me!!!).

Wow, a lot of great posts in this thread.

In my opinion, it's hard to lose weight and keep it off because we are surrounded by unhealthy food choices, every day, all day. Every commercial, billboard, magazine ad, every social event, dinner out with friends, coffee break at Starbucks - the food choices presented are generally not healthy and the portions are huge.

We are a culture that likes things FAST and not just weight loss, food preparation is also fast fast fast. We revel in convenience, no one has time to cook. Pick up some stuff, order a pizza, throw some frozen food in the microwave.

For me, successful weight loss meant opting out of that lifestyle and it's HARD because it makes me a freak. I'm the person that gets teased (gently) in the break room every day "salad again? you're going to turn green!" I dread company events because I know there the tables will groan under the weight of all the food and the "healthy" choice will be some field greens (nothing else) and some regular full fat dressing.

I made the commitment to me, and my health to never eat fast food again - this is hard (if I need something on the go, my 2 standbys are healthy sushi options and a healthy Chipotle option, a healthy Chipotle option that is loaded with sodium and is 500 calories, but still...leaps healthier than anything else). I made the commitment to cook - which means several trips to the grocery store a week. I made the commitment to make lunches - which means I have to carve out time to do it.

Per Photochick's post, I made the commitment to be informed. Some people don't know that food companies can get away with saying NO TRANSFAT if the product has less than .5 grams per serving. Some people don't know the different between "wheat" bread and "whole wheat" bread. A lot of people don't have any idea the Great Wall of Chocolate cake at P.F. Chang's has 2200 calories or the Bloomin' Onion from Outback has 2200 calories - heck I didn't know. I try to read as much as possible, from "In Defense of Food" to "What to Eat" to "Mindless Eating" - I want to understand my relationship with food.

I made a commitment to stop drinking my calories - no more sugar soda. I allow no sugar added cocoa or a tall skinny latte from Starbucks and the occasional glass of red wine. This is so hard - we live in a culture that drinks so many large cups of soda in the car that cup holders have had to get bigger!

And - I had to commit to all these changes for the rest of my life. Real change is hard, so hard. If you had told me 5 years ago I would be packing a healthy salad with some chicken for lunch almost everyday instead of just wandering into the cafeteria and getting whatever looked good that day, I would have thought you were crazy. If you had told me I would give up venti caramel lattes with whip, scones, yogurt preztels, M&Ms, nachos and pizza, I would have thought "well, what will I eat? those are the foods I love, I can't give them up!" I was wrong, I COULD DO IT and I did do it and I'm STILL doing it.

I definitely don't like being the weird one, the freak who is so picky about food. It hurts in social situations sometimes.

Ahhh, but the alternative to being the weird one - is to be the "normal" one. And as you so beautifully pointed out - being "normal" in this society leads to eating foods that aren't so great for us - and therefore being unhealthy and overweight.

So - weird it is. ;)

Something that I said earlier in this thread, I've actually been thinking about. Since I believe it really does boil down, to wanting it badly enough, why is it then we don't want it badly enough? Why are we so willing to settle for second best?

Because we are creatures of habit and I'm OK .....???

In reading through these posts, I feel there is an aspect to this that has been overlooked: for me, and for others, food is like a drug.

When I have fatty junk food, I DO get a small "high" from it. It's a momentary feeling of "Ahhhh. Yummy!" and I'm not just talking about taste.

So for me, and others, I know that when I am feeling overly stressed or emotional I will automatically turn to food the same way an alcoholic or drug addict will go back to their drug of choice: Because it's the simplest and easiest way to make ourselves physically feel better.

Of course it only lasts for seconds at most, and after that I beat myself up for making poor choices. I tell myself that I have to stop this unhealthy behavior! Drug addicts do the same, yet the siren call of their drugs lures them back time and again. Some drug addicts can quit cold turkey and be clean the rest of their lives. For most others, it takes several attempts before they get it right. Some never do.

It's the same with me and junk food. As time goes on, though, I AM kicking the habit! I'm just not one of the lucky few who got it right the first time. :^:

First, thank you for the input, there seems to be a general move towards the notion that the conventional wisdom of emphasizing the physical actions required to lose weight is of minor importance compared to the necessity of tackling the mental barriers that place themselves on the weight loss road. To summarize what we have so far:

Humans are hard wired to stuff themselves whenever food is available, in case there may be famine ahead.

21st century brains are conditioned to associate food with reward.

Deliberately attempting to lose body fat is alien to our nature, as we expect to burn it off naturally while hunting for food.

It's easier to give an excuse NOT to, rather than to actually do it.

Eating often fills a void created by negative emotion.

Some people DON'T actually know what is good for them. (Fair comment, but my OP was really referring to the peeps on this forum.)

In today's world we are surrounded by unhealthy foods, almost to the point that it has now become ABnormal to eat a healthy diet.

If you aren't succeeding, it's because you don't want it enough.

*********************************************

I identify most with the final point. I have always said throughout my adult life that if you want something badly enough you will end up with it. If you don't end up with it, you don't want it badly enough. To me that is obvious.

Successful people regard failure as simply a stepping stone, part of the learning process that forms the path to success. Others take any form of failure as final, because they don't have their eyes on the prize - which BTW is also one of my favourite mantras - they are not able to envisage how their experiences may ultimately culminate in success.

Please, keep posting, there are some excellent points made so far. Does anyone have techniques or methods for approaching any of the issues listed thus far?

Here's another reason I think that we kick against making the right choices: Even those of us who know we're eating the right foods .. EVEN WE ... call ourselves freaks for it.

Glory, I would ask you ... why does it make you a "freak"?

I don't think eating healthy makes me a freak. I don't think that avoiding fast food makes me a freak.

If YOU think it makes you a freak then you are psychologically isolating yourself and that's a form of self-sabotage.

Seriously, my friends eat pizza and hamburgers and want to go to Chili's and get a fried onion and chips and salsa. And I choose not to eat those things. It's not that I don't want them - I do. But I want to be thin and healthy more. And I don't think that makes me a freak.

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I don't necessarily think I'm a freak, but I know other people definitely think I'm a freak. I was just pointing it out since this I think it's a challenge to living a healthy lifestyle. Who wants to feel like they don't fit in? Who wants to turn down a fun night with friends who want to go to a Mexican restaurant becasue they know the endless baskets of chips are hard to resist? Who wants to be the colleague who isn't pleased when management orders a celebration pizza lunch to say "thanks, good job?"

I have made this choice and I am usually 100% okay with it, but I can definitely see how it might be a challenge for someone new to eating right.

Isn't it funny that 90+% of posters on here are women? Not just on here, either, but virtually all diet and eaing disorder boards.

I'd like to chip in with the feminist side of it too. It's odd that so many eating disorder sufferers are women..well no its not really if you consider that since women have obtained more rights in society, more emphasis is placed on *looking good*, ie Being Thin.

At the same time, life is becoming more stressful, many women have families and jobs, for example. And they do, still, most of the domestic work...you don't hear people asking how men manage both, do you? (cheers, Gloria Steinem!). Also, we have more access to junk food than ever before, and a more sedentary lifestyle.

This all combines together to produce ample opportunity to abuse many juky foods in our environment as a result of such stresses ^, an emphasis on DIETING! which is often done impulsively and falls into a yo yo pattern which usually results in weight GAIN overall..basically because to almost EVERY western woman, food is NOT NEUTRAL. And generally, being thin carries connotations of success/sexiness/beating other women, which might not make you comfortable, and subconsiously limit progress in weightloss efforts. Especially since sex, eg used to sell things, has become such a massive business.

This combines with other factors, obviously, but worth mentioning, I think.

Bolshy and cynical for a 20 yr old, arn't I.

You are so right, Apple Cheeks. I am/was an emotional eater, too, the only problem was that I was not seeing myself as such. But I know that whenever I was upset, I would automatically head for McD's and the frustration would diminish (of course, I did not interpret it that way, but looking back, I know that's what was doing). And sometimes, being excited about something or happy would actually trigger the same - another trip to McD's.
And as you can see in my thread that I posted earlier today, I am still not completely immune to it although I am trying very hard.

And just like Glory, I am used to people peeking into my tupperware to see what I have for lunch and often hear comments like 'oh, that looks very healthy' ..... but what they [i.e. my co-workers] are not saying out loud but I think I can finish their sentences for them , is "but boring".
Yah, salad or steamed broccoli is probably more boring than a trip to Wendy's or to Harvey's or what have you. One of my issues with my ex-boyfriend was that he spent a ton of money on lunches because he would never want to eat any leftovers - it's too boring - those were his exact words.

Because we're creatures of habit and habits are difficult to break. I truly believe that all things in life that are worthwhile are the most difficult. It's that simple.

This really struck me.

Definition of Freak from allwords.com: (context, of a person) An oddball, especially in physiology; unique in a displeasing way.

Being consistent in making healthy choices and bringing in your own lunch and snacks does make you an oddball and unique and stand out. :( For me I found that I couldn't be successful long term eating lunch out at work with my group. I had to pack my lunch, eat in, find other like-minded folks who for their own reasons were packing their lunches. I'm out of the loop with my old friends because we now work in different groups and I don't catch up with them at lunch any more. That was a really hard change to make and stick to. But I had to and have to. In the big picture, I'm happy and committed to the change. Does that mean I don't feel like I'm missing out and like an oddball sometimes. No.

Back to the definition - if being an oddball in terms of physiology means I weigh 40 pounds less that I did and how many more than 40 pounds less than I would weigh if I hadn't changed, then I'm OK with being an oddball. Being within a healthy weight range makes me different than a lot of folks I know in a good way.

With the medical industry changing its collective mind and disagreeing among themselves over the past 30 years about how to lose weight but solidly convinced losers are unlikely to keep it off, I don't think it's fair to say that people know exactly what they need to do to get the weight off and keep it off. I think 3FC members on the whole have a better idea than the general public.

And I think we are here seeking the mutual reinforcement that being "freaks" is ok.

A little freak story:

Let's go back, oh I don't know, 5-6 years ago. I worked with a woman named Michelle. Michelle was a very slender, toned girl with great natural strawberry blonde hair. She was always working out, studying on the side to get her certification to be a personal trainer. She was on my team at work, but she never ate with us at lunch because she always brought her lunch. I always saw her in the breakroom, nuking a sweet potato, cutting up chicken, stirring fruit into yogurt. Weirdo, I thought.

We had to take a work trip together, we spent about a week traveling together at two different locations (Fargo and Valencia, CA). God, she was such a pain in the ***. When we landed in CA, we couldn't go straight to the hotel, we had to find a grocery store so she could get a salad for dinner (sheesh, I thought, order ROOM SERVICE we get a 75.00 per diem and I always ordered steak and wine and dessert when I traveled because traveling was HARD and I deserved a treat).

Fargo was the toughest, she could never find anyplace to eat. It was a lot of aimless driving to find someplace she could eat. She didn't want the call center provided for lunch, so we had to find some place where she could get a lunch to take with us. We were LATE one morning because she couldn't just eat a donut from the hotel's free continental breakfast, she had to order an omelet and it took FOREVER. She drove me absolutely crazy that trip.

Fast forward to today, I would be the Michelle on a trip, making somebody else crazy.

(this is a 100% true story)

Ok, see .. hm. Let me preface this by saying that I am not putting anyone down or trying to be mean or ... I dunno ... negative or nasty.

I think all of those examples that you gave are examples of people selfishly pushing their dietary needs on other people ... and possibly being a little "in your face" about it.

To me (and again, please please understand that I'm not being mean here ... I'm just offering my thoughts) ... to me this says more about YOU than about her. I'm bothered by the fact that you then and still now this of this as "weirdo" or "freak" behavior. To me there is nothing freaky or weird about this any more than it's freaky or weird to get a sandwich from the deli or get a personal pan pizza from Target or whatever. I don't understand why someone who brings lunch and eats healthy is branded "freak" in your mind - even up to including yourself as a "freak".

Ridiculous. There's no reason she couldn't have ordered a salad from the hotel - w/out dressing or w/ dressing on the side. She could have ordered a plain grilled chicken breast from the hotel. Obviously money was not an issue here as you said you had a food per-diem. And forcing you to spend time driving around *before* you go to the hotel is just selfish and being "in your face" with her diet. Why not go to the hotel and then tell you "hey I'm gonna take the car and go find a grocery store so I can get a salad - do you want anything?" Why force you to participate in her diet in that way?

You don't have to make other people crazy to accommodate you. It is possible to eat healthy w/out making other people crazy or acting like you're doing something better than they are.

Again, this seems to be awfully selfish and in-your-face motivated here. If there is something I cannot (or don't want to) eat at a party, I don't force everyone else to participate in whatever passive-aggressive form of protest I'm going to throw. I just don't have any patience for this kind of behavior. If knowing that she was going to order an omelette was going to take longer, then it was her responsibility to get up a little earlier, order her omelette a little earlier, so she'd be ready when the rest of the group was. If she didn't want what the call center provided, there's still no need to make the whole group drive around aimlessly. There are plenty of chain restaurants where you can order a plain salad, a plain grilled chicken breast, etc.

And sometimes you just have to suck it up and eat a little bit of something you'd rather not eat and make up for it later, especially when other people are involved.

The "freak" part is when someone makes it impossible for those around her to be comfortable and forces other people to suffer (to be late, to drive around aimlessly, to be uncomfortable) in order to accommodate their eating.

A normal, thoughtful, careful person can eat well and not be a "freak" or totally rude and selfish ... as those people in the examples you gave were.

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Photochick - I think you missed this sentence at the end:

"Fast forward to today, I would be the Michelle on a trip, making somebody else crazy. "

Glory was saying that she thought this woman was a weirdo THEN - but today she is just like her.

As for the eating out thing - I have made a decision that the way I eat now is going to be the way I eat for the rest of my life, plus a couple extra hundred calories to make it a maintenance diet rather than a weight loss one.

This does not mean however that I am never going to eat out ever again, or never eat something unhealthy ever again.

If I want to eat out, I will eat out - if I want pizza, I have pizza. I don't feel guilty about it or consider it a failure. The difference is that after I havemy meal out, I just go back to eating heathily again. This is what I intend to do for the rest of my life.

I am going out next Wednesday for our work summer night out - I am having garlic mushrooms, pizza and I'm even having a dessert. During the day I will be very careful, and on Thursday I'll be back on my diet.

I think if I looked to the future and saw a future where I could never have anything like that ever again, I'd be very depressed. But I think it's perfectly possible to have the odd treat and still lose weight or maintain. This is what normal people do. I can be a normal person too.

I don't view this as freak behavior now, I realize (due to my own experience) that OTHER PEOPLE may find this freak behavior.

When I was working with Michelle, I had NO IDEA at all about what long term weight loss looked like. Michelle said she used to be heavy, but she was such a slender person, at the time I imagined a 10-15 lb weight loss. Who knows how much she lost and kept off in reality? I never asked her.

I was trying to convey that I didn't understand her, her motivations and at the time BIZARRE food choices were very weird to me. Now, I understand her much better (she could have dropped me off at the hotel before going out to get salad or ordered her omelet earlier), but I understand her motivation to stay healthy even under the difficult circumstances of traveling.

I was a very different person 5-6 years ago, my views of dieting and how to eat were nothing like they are now. I did think she was a freak and all of my coworkers thought she was a freak. Now I don't think she's a freak, but I wonder if my coworkers, friends, family think that I'm a freak. It's a fact that I do make things more complicated for other people sometimes, although I try not to.

I eat differently than I would guess 90% of the American public, I am the one swimming upstream. I know why I do it, I believe in why I do it, but it is very hard to make a decision to be different. It takes a lot more work, coordination, planning - I can't expect work functions to have healthy snacks, I can't expect a vending machine to have an apple, or to find a healthy quick meal on the road.

It's a challenge, but worth it.

We can buy apples from vending machines.

I never have though - there is always somewhere to buy an apple.

Hmm - just c&p-ing my post here into my blog in case this one goes *poof* too.

I hate that!!

If a thread gets argumentative, lock it, for sure. But to delete a thread for no apparent reason? Bit nanny state!! Mods take note.

I"m confused .. what went "poof" and when has a thread been deleted? :)

I don't think this one is in any risk of being removed. We're just each presenting different points of view and clarifying communication! :)

.

There is no single cause of obesity, and no single effective treatment. For everyone who can identify "why I am/was fat," there are thousands who have no clue. "Everyone knows what they need to do," simply is not true. Not only do many people not know, many people think they know and are wrong.

"Wanting it badly enough," tends to be a circuitous argument, as the only proof of not wanting it badly enough, is having not succeeded. Personally, I have found this untrue in many cases, including my own. No matter how badly you want it, you still may fail if you don't understand some of the pieces to your particular fat puzzle.

In many ways, I wanted to lose weight much more when I was younger, than I do now. My motivation and ability to stick to VERY restrictive or even unpleasant food plans for MONTHS, was a lot stronger in my twenties than it is today. In fact, I was in such a panic to lose weight, that I attempted very risky and unwise (I even knew it at the time) ways to lose weight. But I liken it to being covered in smelly, sticky, itching, burning substance. When you are so disgusted and repelled that you want to get clean (or thin) quickly, the "quickest" way often holds alot more allure than the "best way," especially if the "best way," requires much thought and a large time commitment.

Wanting it badly enough was never my problem. Wanting it too badly was. Again my problem, not necessarily everybody or even anybody else's.

As for knowing what to do: While I thought I knew that eating a varied diet, moderate in calories, low in fat, and high in fiber was the "right" way to lose weight. It turned out that I was actually wrong. I had a very difficult time sticking to what I thought was right, because I was hungry all of the time (and not just a little hungry - on even a moderate calorie plan, headaches, stomache rumbling, light headedness, resulted in an almost pathological obsession with food every moment). Even after I had eaten to the point my stomache hurt, I still had symptoms of genuine hunger. I still felt driven, mentally and physically, to eat. Low calorie diets even as much as 1800 calories a day, were pure torture. (Of course one could say that I didn't "want" to lose weight badly enough to put up with this tortue. And I guess that's true. During my dieting lifetime, since age 5, I have had periods of time in which I had sufficient motivation - for months, and with the help of amphetemine diet pills even for a couple years, but no longer than that.)

PMS and TOM were especially difficult for me. If dieting the rest of the month was torture, those 7 to 10 days were the pits of **** itself. If 24/7 hungry wasn't bad enough during the rest of the month, that hunger to the power of ten with waves of extreme sadness and anger mixed in, sometimes I wonder how I survived it.

A multitude of events and situations initiated a cascade of changes in my life, and none of them had to do with motivation. Ultimately, I learned things about my body that made change finally possible. A woman doctor advised me to try stacking my bc (eliminating my period, by starting a new pack of bc week 4 rather than taking the placebo pills), and she advised South Beach or a "modified Atkins" low carb diet (she and her husband had lost about 200 lbs together. She a little less, and he a little more than 100 lbs each).

And here I am today, 50 lbs lighter, having much less interest and desire to lose weight than almost ever in my life (except for a period of about 2.5 years when I embraced "fat acceptance" and decided never to diet again - and those years were great, my weight neither increasing or decreasing - too bad I didn't try this at age 12). It isn't about the weight anymore, not really. Sure, I love seeing the weight come off, but it's the changes in my life, regaining my health, strength, and adventurous spirit. Eating whole foods in controlled portions, and exercising. Even the exercise, isn't about losing weight, it's about regaining flexibility and strength, and having fun.

I think all too often, overweight people are considered lazy, crazy, or stupid; and rarely is it the case. Some of the causes of a person's obesity may be relatively simple, other's may be very complicated, but nearly everyone is doing the best they can with their entire life (and experiencing the same mixture of success and failure) as they can. Ignorance, impatience, priorities, physiology, psychology, resources (financial, intellectual, social, emotional, psychological, physiological, and even spiritual) ALL play a role in where we are, where we want to be, and if and how we are able to get there.

Thanks for starting this fascinating thread. In the spirit of feedback, I'd like to tell you that I'm new to weight loss and until I found this forum, I had no idea how many calories a day I need to eat. I didn't have a clue how much I weighed. I didn't know how to eat defensively in a restaurant . Every blooming day I'm truly shocked by the calorie count in something. I wasn't born yesterday, but unless one needs to pay attention, one can be obliviously ignorant of successful weight management. I didn't have a weight problem earlier in life, but things changed in my body and I'm paying attention now.

I personally have kicked some heavy duty addictions in my past (everything from alcohol to bad boyfriends and caffeine recently) and am always interested in discussions of behavior modification or mind control, but I'd just like to say I appreciate the wonderful information provided here on the hard core mechanics of diet and nutrition. It is heavenly to receive answers to basic questions and receive kind support.

As with addictions, often "peer pressure," social norms and cues, all of the things we consciously AND subconscously learn about our cultures norms, expectations, and beliefs - they often play a huge role in obesity. Obesity is not just an individual's problem, it is a societal problem. Social factors often (if not always) play a role in the development and in the treatment/recovery of obesity.

It is difficult to be different. When you are overweight, particularly severely overweight or obese, you are often condemned to being considered a freak. When you're trying to lose weight, well, you're still often considered a freak.
Being a freak (for good or bad) isn't the easy path.

I am often told that I am wrong. When I was fat, people told me what I should be eating (ironically, often what I was, at the time, eating). Losing weight, I am often told I am losing it too slowly (when I was younger, I was either told I was losing it too slowly, or too quickly). I get a lot of flack from family and friends about restricting carbs (it's "unhealthy") despite the fact that my health is improving doing so (and at a faster rate than the weight loss alone could account for).

Looking back, I wonder, why I didn't attempt the carb-restriction if not the bc changes (I'd asked about it, but male doctors had warned me not to mess with my cycle. When a female doctor recommended the change, I figured SHE would know more). As for the carb-restriction, the answer is easy. The "common wisdom" said they were bad, and I believed it. Learning to swim upstream is very difficult.

Robsia, no post in this thread has been deleted. If you lost something, it wasn't because of any mod or admin action. :dunno:

Just want to add that I've been considered a bit of a "freak" all my life for one reason or another--so to have my good nutrition be considered strange hardly puts me in a new situation. :lol:

Jay

I just wanted to throw the name of another great book out to you. "Fat is a Family Affair" is by Judi Hollis and it has really helped me with the mental battle I have had with food and temptation for many years. I can see hope again.

Aj, you asked for strategies...here are the ones that are working for me right now...

1) acknowledging when I am upset and trying to deal with the feelings rather than eat my way through it. Alternatively, going for a walk to calm down...again rather than soothing myself with chocolate or bread

2) Following an eating plan that is "inclusive" rather than restrictive. (I call it mindful eating) so that I don't get into the "I'll never have this again I need to eat a lot of it to say goodbye I feel so deprived.) Letting myself enjoy treats in smaller quantities reduces my compulsive overeating of them.

3) Minimizing triggers to eat. Not only the foods that are triggers, but also behaviors that are triggers. Another book that I found fascinating is "Slim Chance in a Fat World" which studied the difference between thin people and fat people as far as behavioral triggers. Their research indicated that people who were externally triggered were more likely to be overweight. (So if you thought that it was dinnertime you ate dinner, where a slim person ate when their body said it was dinnertime.) I don't eat in front of the tv, in my car, or anywhere but at the kitchen or dining room table.

4) Keeping myself busy and out of the kitchen when it isn't mealtime. Eating to address boredom was a big one for me. I'm doing more reading, jigsaw puzzles, handwork...anything to keep the hands from bringing food to mouth.

5) Making sure I eat breakfast...and I hate breakfast foods. I've learned painfully that no breakfast means that I am ravenous at lunch...and ravenous at dinner. I also try to eat something, either lunch or a healthy snack, midday, again it prevents that evening "I can eat everything in sight" experience.

6) Eating slowly and letting my mind catch up with my body.

I'm not sure if this is what you were looking for (although maybe the first is) but this is working for me now, and I'm committed to always.

Sorry - I wasn't clear. It wasn't a post in this thread - it was a thread in this forum - the "overwhealming (sic) urge" one.

I had just received an email about a response, I went to respond to it - and it had vanished. So I was a touch irritated.

But that was last night -I don't tend to stay irritated about these things for long. I'm Ok now - sorry to have brought it up.

Some really thought-provoking posts here. The general push of the latest posts seems to be focussing on pressure from society. If we try to eat healthy, others around us regard us as abnormal. But a rather more sinister side of this point is that not only do our peers regard us as abnormal, they feel threatened by this abnormality and actively try to get us to eat the same foods as them. How many times have you been at a restaurant or social gathering and a friend or relative who is scoffing a cream cake cake has said "go on, have some, a little won't hurt you....." or similar?

Pandora has posted some excellent suggestions, all of which I am in agreement with, and have been for some time. Emotional eating is a tough habit to break, but the first step is recognizing that you're doing it in the first place. The way I defeated this habit was; after learning to recognize that I was about to eat purely on emotional grounds, I would tell myself that I could have the item of food without beating myself up about it, as long as I was prepared to wait half an hour before eating it.

During that half hour I have the opportunity to deal with the emotion in other ways, as Pandora says, walking it off really does work, or simply doing nothing else other than acknowledging the emotion, experiencing it and then moving on. Whatever happens during that half hour, by the time it is up I no longer want the food, in fact most times I have forgotton that I was going to eat it in the first place.

This technique worked for me, not only because it deals with the precise moment of crisis, but also because long term it broke the old habit, and developed a new one.

For those of you that are wondering, yes there have been occasions when I still stuffed myself after the half hour, after all, I had to keep the promise to myself, otherwise the technique had no chance of success, but in reality those occasions were few and far between.

Robsia, I'm not sure if you're aware of it, but thread starters have the power to delete their own threads. So if you see a thread go *poof*, it's not always because mods or admins have deleted it. Sometimes members just change their minds about threads and posts. ;)

Ah - no I didn't know that. I've never been on a forum where that was permitted and I don't allow it on mine.

Apologies in that case. :)