Well, that's one possible outcome, another could be that the weight not only comes off but stays off. The point being - as I highlighted earlier - the only change would be a change of mind, a paradigm shift.

We are probably all agreed that in my earlier nightmare scenario we would lose the weight, so let's lower the bar a little. What if a doctor told you that if you didn't lose 60 pounds in 6 months you would most likely die before the six months was up?

I submit that no doctor would tell me that, AJ. Not any doctor that understood what happens when weight is lost that quickly.

If you want to do Socratic questions, they may need to be more reasonable. :)

Jay

This is a very interesting thread. I totally *get* the point AJ is making, even before he had to explain it. Didn't he just say that he was giving a dramatic and exaggerated example deliberately to highlight his point? I didn't read his post as an attempt to be literal or realistic in any way. I also took his 60 lbs. in 6 months as arbitrary, again just used to underscore his point about motivation and weight loss, which I think is the same point Robin has made several times on this thread, using herself as an example. I don't think he meant that a person like you, Jay, at 147 lbs, would ever want or need to lose 60 lbs. in 6 months! Good grief!! :dizzy:

It seems to me he is making the same point Robin is making when he quotes Meg as saying (I'm paraphrasing) that if a person wants it badly enough, weight loss CAN happen. Weight loss is certainly a complicated issue with many factors, emotions, and variables, but I *get* AJ's point (and Robin's).

It's a tough road, and we're all in this together... the fact that we are all here, reading and posting on 3FC, I think, shows that we all believe that we CAN lose weight. And most of us know that it won't be easy; there is no magic bullet, but we must keep trying. I struggle with 10 measly pounds, but the mind over matter issue is huge with me. I know that if I really, really HAD to lose it (for health or because I was at gunpoint or whatever ;)), I COULD. But I go down and up down and up. And that's what we are all talking about... motivation, mind over matter, etc.

Personally, I think it's bigger than mind over matter. My mind's will to restrict has never been as strong as my body's will to survive (and rightly so).

For a long time, I pitted my desire to be thin against my body's age-old desire to store fat and my will lost every time.

When I looked at it as "mind over matter" my feelings of failure were huge - why was I such a no will power loser who couldn't stick to a diet? I felt shame and self loathing.

I desperately DID want to be thin and I thought I could do whatever it took (mind over matter), it never worked. I always lost some weight, but invariably, my body's desire to live and protect itself from starvation always forced binges - what literally felt like helpless, out of control episodes.

I WANTED to be thin but I didn't know how. In my opinion, all the wanting in the world won't work unless you know WHAT it is you want (the old answer 42 thing).

This last time, I was able to combine my WANT with KNOWLEDGE and I was successful. I don't think my willpower has changed at all, I am still the same person, it was never my WANTING that was an issue.

I guess I also changed what I wanted - the answer was 42 (to be thin). I thought the question was - how do I lose weight? but I had to change the question "how do lose I lose weight, keep it off and live a slim, healthy person for the rest of my life." Changing the question changed everything for me.

I don't disagree with what people are saying here: motivation IS important. Wanting it IS important.

But is that all there is?

What about another extreme situation (and perhaps unlikely, but we've been down that road already). Let's say there's someone who IS motivated, who does everything right -- eating and exercise. Regularly. But she doesn't lose weight because her metabolism is really slow, and the leptin in her fat cells urge her to eat, and she's on steroids, which also cause weight gain. Oh, and she finds it hard to exercise because she... has no arms and legs (yes, I'm reaching... )

Perhaps for this person, motivation isn't enough. Perhaps in this extreme case, a mind shift won't do.

I just think boiling successful weight loss down to mind over matter is overly simplistic. Earlier in this thread I raised similar issues, by discussing some of the complicating factors but no one picked up on that part of the discussion, so I raise it again: isn't it possible many of the issues we're discussing have added layers of complications dealing with bodies that seem to have minds of their own, on some level?

How do we account the real complexities of weight loss and weight maintenance with simplified formulas?

And just to throw a wrench into the equation.....is it really our mind or is it basic science? Is it the foods we put into our bodies that cause us to want to put more food into our bodies and thereby set up a vicious cycle?

The more I read, the more I study, the more I believe it is the type of food that I put into my body that drives my obesity, that drives my desire to overeat, that drives my desire to eat foods that aren't healthy for me. The more I read about insulin and its effect on the body, the more I am less inclined to abuse my body with excess processed carbs.

There are so many complexities to obesity...some of us have abused ourselves for so long that we have metabolic problems that cannot be overcome with 'mind over matter'. I'm not saying that we can't lose weight, I'm just saying that we are all so different that there is no one answer.

Having said that, it's so good to have discussions like this! I think it's very important to be sympathetic to where others are on their journey.

Heather this is SO what I've been trying to say. My answer to "is that all there is?" Is a resounding NO!

Even if you do believe that it is always possible, with enough "will," sometimes the question is "at what cost?" And what if the cost is too high? To add an equally extreme and bizarre example, consider that you've reached your goal weight and are very happy and proud of yourself, and doing well at maintaining. Now your child is kidnapped, and the kidnapper promises to torture your child until you GAIN 100 lbs and kill her if you don't accomplish it in six months. Can you do it? Will you do it? And how long will it take you?

___________

How do we account the real complexities of weight loss and weight maintenance with simplified formulas?

My opinion is we can't. The simplified forumal takes as much real meaning out of the problem, as do our ridiculous scenarios.

I was raised with the mentality that ONLY the motivation mattered. How you lost the weight wasn't important, even to my doctor. I was put on my first diet at age 5, and was a diet veteran by the time I was put on prescription stimulant diet pills at age 12 or 13 (in 8th grade). I pretty much ate little to nothing during the week (too weak to exercise), and a little more on the weekend so I could exercise. Honor roll was also important to me, or I might have done a little better at the weight loss if I (or my folks) would have been willing to sacrifice my studies. Even so, losing weight was still "tooth and nail" difficult (can't imagine what it would have been like without the diet pills). I was able to lose 75 lbs and was within 5 lbs of my ideal weight, when my doctor lowered the boom, that he was lowering my goal weight by another 10 lbs (from the "top" of the healthy range chart to the lower middle).

In hindsight, I am horrified that I didn't have the knowledge and strength to tell the doctor to go to H.E.double toothpicks. But losing weight had become so difficult that the idea of having to lose another 15 lbs, just seemed impossible. Instead of being proud of what I'd accomplished, and decide for MYSELF what my goal weight was, I felt crushed. Instead I felt that none of it had counted, that I'd only be "good enough" if I lost the 15 lbs, and since I really felt that I couldn't, I felt none of what I HAD lost had counted. Stupid, of course, but I was only 17, what did I know?

During gradeschool, highschool, and much of college, I "wanted it" badly enough to damage my body to the point that weight loss is less and less possible. Some of my current health problems are probably attributable to simply the excess weight, but some very well may be caused by the repeated stress of dieting on my body, but I guess you could still say I didn't want it badly enough. I didn't want it badly enough to sacrifice my masters' degree, or my desire to teach college (even though it meant working two jobs), or time with my family.

How much was I willing to sacrifice? Well, I definitely DID sacrifice my metabolism. I did sacrifice much of my social life. By college, I knew that there were men who were atracted to fat women, but I didn't want to date anyone who might try to hinder my weight loss or be disappointed when I lost weight. I believe I sacrificed my healthy in many ways beyond that caused by simply the excess weight.

A friend I had in college knew that she could lose the weight she wanted to if she wanted it badly enough, even though everyone else told her she was wrong. I lost contact with her when she sacrificed her education in order to reach her weight loss goal. She was too weak to continue with classes. I don't know if she ever did reach her goal (75 lbs), or what else she sacrificed to do so, very possibly her life.

If I had learned and addressed the connection between hormones and carbs and my insatiable hunger, I would have been able to reach my goal with a lot less motivation, effort, and sacrifice. I wouldn't have NEEDED more desire and motivation.

I think that minimizing the amount of sacrifice that is necessary to lose weight, is hugely valuable. While it may certainly be possible to lose weight with nothing but motivation, it's very possible that for some people, the sacrifices may be too great.

Just wanted to say to Claire (walking2lose)--I didn't think AJ113 meant that at my current weight, I'd lose 60 pounds. That would be impossible. I assumed I was starting from my start weight--198.

And, what I said still holds. To lose 60 pounds in 6 months would have been too fast for me, even starting there. Also, the loss would have slowed as I dropped. And finally, I'm older, so I'm working with a slower metabolism.

Could I do it? Sure! Many people have lost weight fast like that. But there is a price to pay for rapid weight loss.

The real challenge is keeping the weight off.

Jay

I agree Heather. I think there are many factors, some of which are recognizable and some of which have yet to be identified. This is my third effort losing weight. Why has it worked this time, but not the others?

Motivation is great, but without knowledge and tools, it won't get a person where they want to go. As far as implying that people who post on this board already have the knowledge for how to lose the weight....I'm not sure I have been reading the same board then. I see on this board all the time people desperate for strategies and knowledge. My own knowledge continues to grow.

So I think motivation is one piece. But I think there are other pieces. I might dare to say that some might feel motivation is enough to lead people to these other pieces---ie with appropriate motivation one will seek out knowledge and tools.

Jay, I still think you are taking his analogy too literally and kinda missing the forest for the trees (NO OFFENSE!! :)) I thought he was being metaphorical, not literal, and not even referring to you at your current or starting weight. He was simply making a point that weight loss IS possible with enough internal motivation, which as I pointed out, is the same thing Robin has been saying on this thread. That is simply her view. I didn't in any way see her post as one that touted rapid weight loss. She and Robin and Glory and many others seem to agree that weight loss is possible with the proper knowledge and motivation. This has worked for them and others. To a point, I agree with their premise, although I acknowledge that I don't have enough education (or even personal experience) to adequately speak to the efficacy of this premise being a viable one.

And, their point is a debatable point and one with which not everyone agrees. Heather and Colleen have raised the issue that there are MANY complexities - physical, emotional, etc. that contribute to a person's ability to lose AND to maintain. I agree with this too! The realm of obesity and weight loss is in the forefront of study by physicians, psychologist, and scientists- we read new articles and studies every day on this topic. I certainly think Heather is right that boiling it all down to a simple formula of mind over matter is way oversimplifying the issue. Many overweight people exhibit tremendous willpower and determination in many areas of their lives - why can't they apply that will to losing weight? Because it is not so simple. And I sure don't have all the answers. I was trying to clarify what I saw as a misreading of AJ's post.

We all have a lot to learn from those who have lost and maintained. They have done battle and won... and continue the battle every day. We must also learn from our own struggles and journeys - each one is different and no one is better nor worse than an other. I again go back to my point that we are all here trying... trying to be healthier, trying to lose or maintain a loss, and these are clearly difficult things to do in the culture in which we live.

Just an aside, leptin causes satiety not hunger. But your point was still clear.

Kaplods -- your post was spot-on, I think. I too think that many people, myself included, became overweight not because they didn't desire being thin enough (it was my deepest desire for my whole life), but because bad food choices from childhood (possibly made FOR them by well-meaning people when they were very young) helped them form chemical food "addictions" that perpetuate and cause weight gain. I'm not saying I didn't willingly gorge on doughnuts and cookies, but WHY did I feel I needed them SO badly?

Obviously, it takes some force of will to pick yourself up and decide to get to the bottom of your problem -- be it chemical, emotional, whatever -- but much of it is just plain physical and physiological, imo, for lots of people. Also, as walkingtolose pointed out, lots of overweight people demonstrate great discipline and drive in other areas of life -- getting degrees, performing well at work, being good parents and spouses, etc. Why not apply those skills and that will to the weight problem? When you're chemically addicted, willpower and desire and emotional strength aren't (always) enough.

I remember being like 12 or 13 years old, desperately trying to lose weight so this guy I liked in school would notice me (HA!). Anyway, there I was, sitting on the couch after school, telling myself, CHANTING TO MYSELF, "you will not have a rice krispie treat, you will not have a rice krispie treat..." The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak... I ate something like FIVE (5) rice crispie treats that afternoon (except like an hour later than I would have).

AJ - no problem. You can confuse me with Meg any time. Any time at all. Works just fine for me. ;)


That's it. When you want it badly enough, you search and search until you FIND what works for you. Not only that, but you make it work. Whatever it is. If your metabolisim is slow and you lose weight more slowly or even at a snails pace, so be it. It doesn't matter. If you have intense, intense cravings - you ignore them or find ways to deal with them. It doesn't matter. If you are truly addicted to food, you manage it. It doesn't matter. If you are always hungry - you learn to deal with it. It doesn't matter. If your time is limited, if your budget is limited, if you have horrendous stress to deal with, if you are constantly faced with tempation, if you have zero support - it does not matter. You do whatever it takes, no matter what your situation, as hard as that may be. You find a way around it.

This reminds me of what my sister has said to me several times, I've mentioned this in another thread recently. When I've discussed with my sister some of the foods I eat and how I am more then satisfied having the same lunch most days of the week, she answers back, that I was at the point that if I had to eat cardboard for the rest of my life in order to get and then stay thin, that I would do it. I don't believe that to be the case and am darn grateful that it didn't come to that, but you get my point.

Another thing. I've heard success and failure thrown around during this conversation. And I hear it quite often hear at 3FC. Please forgive me, but I never understood the thing about feeling that one is a success or a failure if they can't get a handle on their weight issues. I certainly didn't get a handle on it for over 20 years. Heck I'm still trying to. I did feel as if I was a failure AT losing weight, but it didn't mean that *I* was a failure. As heavy as I was, I never considered my entire SELF a failure, just that one aspect of my life. Just like now that I have been successful at weight loss, doesn't mean that *I* am a success. And the truth is I won't consider myself a *true* success at weight loss, until I've kept if off for my entire life. Or at least until my upper 80's. Then we'll see about it. Not sure why I felt the need to mention it just now, but it has been bugging me for a bit.

Oh and Claire, AJ is a guy. Just thought I'd let you know ;). And he started quite the discussion here,much food for thought.

Just one more thing I'd like to add, I hope each and every one of us finds whatever it is that works for each of us. Because it's out there. :hug:

I think the problem with reducing weight loss (or any change) to simple motivation, is that it's a lot like the argument sometimes seen for faith healings - if there is no miracle of healing, it's because your faith or mind wasn't strong enough. There are many religions and philosophies that believe this, but I don't think God works that way, and I don't think motivation works that way either. There are many people who do have extremely strong almost super-human motivation, desire, and drive, and yet still do not reach their goals. My brothers dream was to be a Navy Seal, and he worked at the qualifying tests until he passed them all, and then was not accepted because his vision was not good enough (I found it a bit strange that the Navy wouldn't test the vision first, but I guess they want to see what people can do, even if they know from the start, they'll never make it).

I think a better way to look at motivation is to see it as being one leg of a stool (I wish I could take credit for this analogy, but I didn't come up with it. Rather it is one a psychology professors used when teaching us about the resources necessary for successful cognitive-behavior change of things like substance abuse, gambling etc.... though I think weight loss applies equally as well). Depending on how many legs you start with, and the strength of those legs, you can kick out one or even a few and might still have a functional stool, but the fewer legs you start with, or the more unevenly spaced they are, the more important some legs are than others.

I don't think motivation is a leg that you can ever remove and still have a functional stool. However, the stronger the other legs are, the less weight needs to be born by motivation. When the professor used the model in class, he asked us to name some of the legs they thought needed to be under the stool, and I'm sure motivation, desire, commitment were named, but there were also things like social support (inside and outside of the family), intelligence, education, values, stress management, physical and emotional resources....

He drew a lot of weird stools on the board with 1 to 10 legs, of different thickneses and lengths, and spacings. Then he started erasing some of the legs or shortening them and asking us which would still support a person. Sometimes it was obvious, and sometimes we'd laugingly answer that it depended on the person.

"Ah, that's a good point," he said. "Which of these would you let your 95-year old grandmother sit on?" "How about a two year-old child?"


I know when I counseled people, I didn't use the stool analogy per se, but did focus on people making change easier by strengthening the resources they could. As a probation officer, we encouraged probationees (whether it was part of the court order or not), in getting a job, going to church, forming positive relationships, joining support groups, close ties to family (if the family was a positive influence), pursuing education and even things like taking care of their personal hygeine, getting dental and medical care and otherwise improving their health and appearance, as well as things like finding positive hobbies and leisure activities.... because all of these things have been proven to increase a person's chance of staying out of trouble.

It's true for weight loss as well. The tiniest and oddest things can be a great help. I love crafts. There are many that I could easily do while eating and drinking, but the more time I spend on one that I can't eat doing, the better tool the hobby is for my weight. Even my crochet. With dark colored acryclic yarns, it was easy to think "Eh, if I spill something on it, I can just wash it," especially if I was making the item for my husband or I. But, now that I'm choosing to make projects as gifts and consciously choosing lighter and more delicate fibers - I don't eat while crocheting, because I don't want to risk staining the items. The more this became a habit, the less I thought of eating, even when using sturdier, more forgiving fibers.

I don't think motivation is every a strong enough leg to stand on its own. I remember that even in graduate school, we were taught that when a person with a drug or alcohol problem could ONLY identify will-power as their strategy for change, they were least likely to succeed. Desire to change, poorly correlated with actual change. The people with the most desire, were not the most successful, and I think that takes us back to the stool analogy.

Some rather weakly motivated people may still have more success than some highly motivated people, if they have enough support in other areas. An example might be in searching for a job. One not-very motivated person might get a better job faster than a very motivated person can get crappy job, if the less motivated person has a dad who owns the company (another somewhat extreme example).

A person who has a lot of obstacles (termites?) may need a lot more legs on their chair. A person with few obstacles (and very good balance) may even be able to use a chair with only one thin leg.

I think when we rely on only motivation, we're a lot like Goldilocks, breaking a lot of chairs to find the one that's "just right." But, just the act of falling on our butts, can cripple us to the point that we reduce the odds of finding a chair that will work for us (we need more and stronger legs on our chairs than when we first started looking).

I am so grateful that I've finally found my chair, but it has a lot more legs on it, than it would have if I had found two of my legs earlier (the hormonal and carb connections). I could have been sitting comfortably for much of the last 36 years on a much less sturdily built chair (both figuratively and literally).

I think what we do here, is share information on legs. Motivation is a very important one, so we talk about it alot. For many people it IS the strongest leg they have, and the one they want to share with others, but it isn't the only leg and that is very important to share, because a person can compensate for any weak leg, by adding and reinforcing others.

I don't know how I feel about this. Maybe because we had such different experiences with dieting. If I remember correctly (and I might be wrong!) you were heavy and never tried to diet, this was your first weight loss attempt?

I dieted for 20 years, so part of me is just hurt and insulted by the thought you think I (and anyone else like me) just didn't want it badly enough. I can assure you that I DID want it. Maybe it just took me the 20 years to find what worked for me, but it definitely wasn't a lack of wanting and trying.

I painfully, desperately, wanted to be thin. I agonized over my weight. I was in a funk and depression. I didn't shop, I didn't look at myself, I didn't allow pictures - I dreamed/fantasized constantly about losing weight - it's hard to describe in text the depths of my wanting, but it was soul deep - for YEARS.

I wanted it so badly, that I did a lot of unhealthy things - starving myself, dexatrim, slim fast, lost my period once (only time in my life), hair fell out by the handfuls in the shower. I did think it was mind over matter, end justifies the means, lose weight by any way possible, no matter what. That kind of thinking was really really bad for me. I did think if I wanted it badly enough I could lose weight, I thought there was something wrong with me, I was weak, I had no willpower.

It is just hard to describe how I feel when you say "if you want it badly enough, you can lose weight" because it makes me feel like a loser for 20 years - that if only I had wanted it ENOUGH I could have lost weight when I was 20. I just feel that desire was only part of the equation for me (an important part).

Glory, no, no, no. I apologize deeply and sincerely if I've offended you or anyone else. I never, ever meant to imply that anyone is a loser or a failure if they have not gotten off the weight. NEVER. In fact that's why I wrote that I just don't even get that logic. Of thinking of oneself as a loser or a failure if they can't do it. I don't think being overweight means that one is a failure. Or even close. I don't think that one's weight defines one self. There's a lot more going on in a person then their weight.

And yes, I did attempt "dieting" for 20 plus years just like you. But unlike you, I never lost any significant amount of weight. I always say that my attempts were half hearted because I never could/would do it for very long. So therefore, MY take on it, was that it was half hearted. That I didn't put my ALL into it. And I don't "count" it as much. I've obviously given the wrong impression.

But Glory, I think we're basically on the same page here, you just don't care for my wording. I think you're a perfect example. I have no doubt that you did indeed want it badly enough. No doubt at all. So therefore, you DID find a way to make it work. You didn't give up. It may have taken you 20 + years - but you DID it. You kept trying and trying and trying until you discovered what worked for you. My belief is that you wanted it so badly, that you were williing to keep on plugging away and plugging away, even after many so called failed attempts, until you found what worked for you. Sure it took you over 20 years to do so. So be it. That just shows how badly you wanted it. I think it's unheard of that anyone gets it down pat on the first try. Or the second or the third, or the fourth or fifth.... Luckily we're given as many attempts as we need. There is no limit. We can keep trying and trying and trying. And we should.

Just a note to walking2lose to say, Yes, I do get the analogy, and no, I am not missing the forest for the trees. :lol:

My point was simply that the numbers were unrealistic to begin with. And, I'd have to acknowledge that when push came to shove, I might not lose 60 pounds in 6 months, and I'd never see my loved one again. ;)

Motivation is not the same as will power, in my way of thinking. Will power has more to do with commitment, which is a different step. Most overweight/obese people can find some motivation to lose weight. But wanting to isn't enough. If it were, the problem would be solved.

Jay

I doubt very much that I'd be able to lose 60 lb in 6 months, even with that incentive. And if I did I think I'd probably be dead. 87 lb is not a healthy weight for a 5'5" tall woman.

However I could easily put 60 lb ON in 6 months.

I'm glad Glory brought this up. I toyed with the idea of raising this point the past couple of days, but for time reasons, I didn't.

Regardless of whether anyone intends it, I have a feeling there could be a lot of people reading this thread and feeling just like Glory did. It's sort of a slap in the face to be told you just aren't trying hard enough when you feel like you're giving it your all.

I think a lot of people do want it very badly, but either don't know how to be successful long term. When they are faced with plateaus and/or lapses and collapses, they don't keep fighting and finding new ways to succeed, but they give up. (At least, I did). They give up not because they don't want it, but because they are at a loss. They start to figure they just can't do it (at least, I did!)

As has been raised already, it's not that motivation isn't important, but as Colleen has noted, it's only one leg of the "stool". Knowledge is another important leg. And there are more. So, you can want it all you like, but if you don't have the knowledge of how to lose and maintain successfully for you, you will probably fail. (Again, I think we don't really disagree on much).

And there may be some of us who have situations that are very difficult to find successful solutions for (thyroid issues, etc). We may not yet KNOW these solutions.

It is estimated that 75-95% of people fail to maintain their weight loss. Do they all really not want it enough? It is my hope that as we learn more about successful weight loss and maintenance and find new knowledge about our complex bodies, that the rates of "failure" in weight loss will improve.

PS -- Julie thanks for the clarification on leptin. I had a feeling I was getting it wrong!

Hmm... there's an interesting scenario. A loved one is taken hostage, and will only be released if you GAIN 60 pounds in 6 months...

I could do that! And I would.

I also hate the "hostage, lose 60 lbs scenario." If someone kidnapped a loved one and I had to lose weight - I'd amputate a leg or something. Fast, permanent weight loss. If a mother would die for a child, they would do ANYTHING.

I wanted to respond more, but I'm late for work!

Again, I sincerely apologize if anyone has felt this way even for a teeny, tiny second.

Hey :) I just answered a sweet PM from Robin and I want to make sure everyone knows I am not upset with Robin!!! So I will repaste it in all it's rambly glory (hee):

Oh, Robin - you didn't have to apologize! I may not have agreed with your post, but I was never mad at you!

You know how it is, weight loss is just so...fraught with emotion - everything is so huge and personal! I tend to view everything through the lens of my own experience.

And I do try to understand your experience, that you tried a bit, but it didn't click for you until your fear of leaving your kids alone or some of the other things you've shared gave you the impetus you needed to make the huge changes required.

For me, I wanted it, but I never could quite figure out how to do it. And I thought I was finding the right knowledge, but it was a lot different 20 years ago! It was all grapefruit diet and dexatrim and VLC and slim fast and the Rice Diet. I did so much reading, I did try a lot of things - Low Fat - all the conventional wisdom of the time. And I really did try so hard, crazy crazy stuff. That's probably why your comment resonated so much with me, there's no way I could have wanted it more (okay, maybe if I had been diagnosed with diabetes or something like that). I didn't want it more in July 2004 than I wanted it at any other time in my dieting life.

Hmmm, I think it's that I DID think if I wanted it badly enough I could do it, and therefore since I didn't do it, I must not want it badly enough (therefore it was a breakdown in ME, my willpower, my desire). This goes back to those unhealthy thoughts I used to have about being "In control" and feeling "out of control" that always plagued my dieting history. I let my self worth get wrapped up in not only my weight, but my weight loss attempts. Since so many other people were dieting and losing weight (my perception, ignoring the facts/statistics/reality about weight loss and maintenance), since I couldn't do it, something was wrong with me. "Something must be wrong with me, I wanted it so bad!? was how I thought. I thought I was a weak, no will power loser.

Of course, now I know better and I'm in a better, healthier place about me.

I am sorry I made you feel you needed to apologize! I think I just tossed some of my own baggage on you in that thread! I do like this board and the ability for all of us to put our hearts out there, just pour out our souls and history and thoughts and experiences - I definitely think it's okay to come at things from different perspectives!

You are one of my absolute favorite posters and like I posted in your 1 year anniversary thread, you do inspire me every day! I am really sorry I made you think I was truly upset!

**** yea!

Oh Glory, you did not have to go and publicize your PM to me, silly girl. :hug:

I must say, it sounds to me like you really, REALLY wanted weight loss badly enough. I'm just so thrilled for you that you kept at it and finally hit upon something that you were able to stick with, thus allowing you to lose the weight and then be able to maintain it for so long. And lucky us, we get to benefit from it too with all your sound advice. ;)

And let me just say, that you are indeed one of my (and I'm sure a lot of peoples') very favorite posters, who I think of often. I really do. You not only inspire me daily, but you keep me going and give me much needed confidence. I think that if "Glory can do it, then maybe, just maybe so can I!" I LOVE reading what you have to say, even if every now and then (a rarity) I don't agree with it 100%. Though I will tell you that I definitely see your point here. :hug:

I dieted for 20 years, so part of me is just hurt and insulted by the thought you think I (and anyone else like me) just didn't want it badly enough. I can assure you that I DID want it. Maybe it just took me the 20 years to find what worked for me, but it definitely wasn't a lack of wanting and trying.
__________________________________________________ ______

Glory, Your feelings aren't unusual in any way. It's hard not to interpret the well-meaning advice of "if you want it, you can do it" as the criticism "if you haven't done it, you must not want it." You've heard it for 20 years, I've heard it for 36.

I think you and I both know how easy it would have been to just stop trying. For me, every diet brought extra weight and a slower metabolism, so after 35 years of trying, I was very afraid to try again. And if I hadn't found a new tool, honestly I'm not sure I would have. My motivation, like my metabolism waned with each unsuccessful attempt. My resources were whittled, bit by bit until I had nearly nothing left.

I know that I have far fewer resources now than I did when I was younger. I had more strength, more stamina, more desire, more energy, and more optimism than I do now. Because I had to go on disability, I also had more financial resources. I easily could have died without ever having found the tools I needed, and it wouldn't have been from lack of trying.

I could write not just a book, but volumes on all of the crazy things I tried to lose weight. I amaze myself that I was able to do some of the things I did to lose weight. I'm no longer willing to go 6 days without eating, and not just because I know that doing so tends to backfire on a person. I'm just grown less tolerant of inflicting pain upon myself.

I think that's why it's so important to start people off with good information and good tools. Too many of us come into this struggle completely ignorant, and the very process of trial and error, errodes our physical and mental (and often financial) resources. Now, I'm sure trial and error will always be a part of this process to a degree, but the faster we can get people the right tools, the easier and earlier that success can be achieved.

If no one ever listened to "bad" dieting advice, I don't think the failure rate would be 95%. But crash diets not only are still common, they are still very popular, despite well-established data that they just don't work. We all know that eating 2500 calories a WEEK is not healthy, but how many of us here have done it? How many people are still doing it?

Far too many of us.

I think in some ways, there's a common attitude that since "you can do it if you really want to," (assumed) that there's really no need for weight loss research. There's no need to understand which types of interventions work the best for various people, and which are most likely to result in blazing failure. After all, if they want it bad enough, they'll figure it out themselves, somehow.

But, I think every single failure increases the likelihood of the next failure, until a person stops trying. It's called learned helplesness, and basically translates to, if a person never succeeds, they stop expecting to succeed.

Puppies that were kept in a box that shocked the puppies feet learn to jump out of the box. But if the walls are too high, eventually you can remove one of the walls and the puppies still never learn to jump out of the box.

People are more sophisticated than puppies, but learned helplessness still plays a role in people's behaviors. "What's the use, I always... (insert any statement of failure here)." It happens, and it does errode motivation.

When factors such as depression and poor self-esteem are added in, or multiple responsibilities and stressors such as caring for a family, health problems, financial problems, job problems, marital problems.... they all eat a person's ability to live their dreams (or even have them).

All of us have limited resources. How limited, varies tremendously. How likely we are to pick the right tools without outside help, that's going to vary a lot too. Could I have lost the weight and maintained the weight loss if I hadn't found the hormonal and carbohydrate connection? You know, I still can't
answer that, because I just don't know.

Are there people on the planet who desire weight loss and are more motivated than I am, and yet are not succeeding? Oh, most definitely yes. Are there people who have died trying? Most definitely, also. Not everyone reaches their goals, and the reasons are many.

Well, first of all, thanks for saving me from being the "wicked witch" today - because I started reading this thread on my lunch and got so sucked in I did absolutely nothing constructive. As a result, my employees did all the work and had enough to keep them busy so I didn't have to send any of them home :lol:

This whole idea of "wanting it badly enough" (or not) made me think of one of my pet peeves - people saying "If I can do it, anyone can". Doesn't matter if it's weight loss or making millions flipping houses, it just has always made my hackles go up when people say that. Except now, for the first time in my life, I'm almost starting to get it and I'm catching myself having to make a conscious effort not to use some variation of that same phrase - kind of like when you catch yourself using some phrase on your kids that you SWORE you would never say because it sounded so annoying coming from your mother. :D

I think that particular phrase bothered me so much mostly because I never quite believed I could really do it (anything actually). Even when I made myself "scary skinny" in the past, I still never quite believed that it was me who did it or that it was the result of *my* efforts in any way. Of course, I'm certainly a relative newbie to the attitude adjustment that seems to be making things work this time so only time will tell if I'm going to be able to fend off that "you're at goal, you can go off your diet now" voice but, I almost feel as though some sort of switch has been thrown inside my head that has completely changed the way I look at things - like the eye thingy at the optomotrist "is this better or this one" then he flips one lens and suddenly everything is soooo clear - and I just can't see myself going back to the "fat" habits.

So, maybe it boils down more to believing rather than wanting - ok, so Jiminey Cricket is singing in the background and the Blue Fairy is wafting around on the computer screen, but maybe old Jiminey had something there.

I bet we all know people who always seem to end up with the cutest dates, the best jobs, the biggest house, tightest abs, coolest car, whatever they want seems to happen for them. If you take a good look at those people's personality, doesn't it seem like they just assume they deserve all those things? Not that they don't do anything proactive to get it to happen - most of them actually work their tails off educating themselves, making contacts, etc., but they set their minds on something and believe they deserve it and they are able to make it happen. And, it's not a rah-rah, gung-ho type of attitude, it's a much quieter "just the way it is" thing.

Maybe I'm just rehashing Glory's idea of the unhealthy thoughts and low self esteem being responsible for holding us back for so long, but to me, this is a whole different mental state than the "aha" moment that got the ball rolling.

I'd just like to thank the members for their truly intelligent, intelligible, provocative input thus far. Truly absorbing.

Well, there are probably ten replies I would really like to make, but I don't want to hog the thread.

Walking2lose (Claire) Your assesment of my posts is far more accurate than I could have explained myself, thank you for that.

I appreciate the input regarding my analogies, but can we get away from the specifics please? They're really not important, and they detract from the point. If you wish, insert your own specifics i.e. "the gunman says you must lose X pounds in X months." Also, to argue whether a doctor would or would not say such a thing is detracting from the point too.

If anyone has problems with my analogies, try creating some of your own, and introduce them to the discussion, that would be interesting. The point being that once the motivation - fuelled by desire - is strong enough, things will happen. Whether you agree with that point is another matter.

The analogy by kaplods of the gunman insisting that you GAIN weight was presented - I think - as a counter argument, but as far as I can see, it serves to support my point - i.e., who wouldn't gain weight in those circumstances? I'm sure we would all find a way, due to the dramatic paradigm shift.

The additional analogy of the legs on the stool confused me somewhat. In that scenario I see desire and motivation as the hobnail boot that is kicking out the legs - not a leg itself.

Robin (Now I know why you are Rockin' !!)
I'd like to pick up on your point that some people who fail at a single operation or project then seem to impute failure on to themselves in its entirety, whereas others will compartmentalize success or failure and keep it ringfenced to the appropriate area. Could this difference be synonymous with the difference between people who agree - and put in to practice - the notion that you can get what you want if you want it bad enough, and those who say that motivation is not enough, other factors have an influence too?

Do you think there is a connection?

The additional analogy of the legs on the stool confused me somewhat. In that scenario I see desire and motivation as the hobnail boot that is kicking out the legs - not a leg itself.

Robin (Now I know why you are Rockin' !!)
I'd like to pick up on your point that some people who fail at a single operation or project then seem to impute failure on to themselves in its entirety, whereas others will compartmentalize success or failure and keep it ringfenced to the appropriate area. Could this difference be synonymous with the difference between people who agree - and put in to practice - the notion that you can get what you want if you want it bad enough, and those who say that motivation is not enough, other factors have an influence too?

Do you think there is a connection?
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Now, I'm confused. The analogy the professor gave was that you needed a functional stool in order to "support" change. If motivation and desire are kicking out the legs, then motivation and desire would be working AGAINST success and that's not what I was saying, just that motivation is only one component to success.

I disagree about a connection between compartmentalizing success and failure and the belief that motivation is not enough. I've always succeeded at nearly everything I attempted except weight loss. So, I never really felt globally a failure. Although I shouldn't say "never," as I of course had fleeting "poor me, everything in my life sucks" moments, but my overall self-esteem and self-respect have always been pretty much intact. Succeeding in nearly everything I ever attempted, except weight loss, did start me wondering whether my professors were right about motivation not being the only piece of the puzzle. Something about weight loss was different, and in looking at the "multiple components to change" model, I can even indentify many of them.

I've encountered people who have cast me into the role of failure or freak because of my weight, but I never did. I knew THEY were wrong.

Rather, I learned that motivation was not enough. Not just through professors saying so, but seeing it in my own life. Even in the many, many areas that I succeeded and excelled in, there was more than motivation involved.

I was adopted and my parents were told that I was going to be very, very smart (apparently one of my bioparents was a child prodigy or something), and my parents told me they said "how can anyone know that a baby is going to be smart?" and pretty much forgot about the premonition until I began reading before kindergarten. School work was always easy for me, and I never understood why other kids just didn't "get it" the first time. My best friend throughout gradeschool struggled academically. She had to work very hard just to maintain average to slightly above average grades. She put more effort into a lot of her "C's" than I did into most of my "A's". The amount of motivation for each of us was different. I never took notes in class (even in college my notes were horrible except in science classes) because if I understood it, hearing it once was enough for me to remember it forever. Often my version of studying for the lighter subjects (in college as well) was to simple read the chapters the night before a test.

My view on why motivation is not the whole picture, is that I've seen how easily motivation can be misdirected. People who are very motivated to succeed financially (by their definition) focusing their energies into criminal activities rather than legal ones (but them not being good enough at it not to get caught). I once sat down with a guy and showed him that taking into account his prison time, his home burglary "career" was paying him less than minimum wage, when he told me that he couldn't "afford" to take a legal job. For this guy, that was an AHA moment for him. His motivation wasn't working for him, because he was using it to fuel a misguided belief.

In the 70's and early 80's, in my high school, disfunctional anorexic or bulimic eating habits, such as eating a lunch of less than 150 calories, were actually considered "cool." My boyfriend at the time was an insulin dependent type I diabetic (he wasn't fat, but he had been as a little kid and was still self-conscious about it). He would skip lunch and I wouldn't eat all day friday so that we could go out to eat and eat dinner together on our date. I had tons of motivation, but I was channeling it into unhealthy patterns out of ignorance, and that ignorance was costing me dearly in terms of damaging my health and metabolism.

Growing up, I very clearly remember (and believed) that weight loss was simply a matter of motivation. Getting the weight off fast was possible, and that maintaining it was just a matter of will. When you believe both of those things, of course you intend to get the weight off as fast as you can, by any method necessary. Not knowing that crash diets tended to make weight loss MORE difficult, of course those were the methods that everyone tried first. "Sensible, gradual" weight loss was for wimps who didn't think they could do it on their own.

Yeah, that was smart thinkin' but hindsight as they say.... and all that.

Some people learn from their mistakes very easily, others not so much. I always thought I was smarter AND more motivated than the average bear, and yet it took me 36 years to discover and address the hormonal and carb-related part of my problem. The hormonal problem I recognized by age 12, but not just one doctor, but several over my lifetime told me there was nothing I could do about that. The carb issue I believed the common wisdom that low-carb diets were dangerous, unhealthy, and ineffective.

So, more than three decades later, I was still trying to find what worked for me, because I was overlooking what was right under my nose all along (and not for lack of looking). And I think "what do people without MY resources do," and the answer is often they fail.

Motivation is the place to start, but if you don't have anything but motivation, you're going to fail an awful lot before you start succeeding. I'm sure I could eventually figure out how to build a house without help, but if I had to build a house, my first step would not be to start mortaring bricks. I would talk to people who had built houses. I would read books, and I would ask people to help me.

But motivation doesn't make me know that those are steps I should take. If I didn't know that anyone had ever built a house (or if I went to them and asked and they told me all I needed was to want to build a house) or if I didn't know books on the subject existed, or didn't have friends willing or able to help, it could take me an awful long time to build that house, especially if I didn't have easy access to building materials.

I must say that when I use the phrase, "want it badly enough", I don't necessarily equate that as being motivation. I equate that with extreme, extreme, DESIRE. And they're 2 different things in my (abliet tiny) book.

de·sire /dɪˈzaɪər/ Pronunciation Key - noun
–verb (used with object) 1. to wish or long for; crave; want.
2. to express a wish to obtain; ask for; request: The mayor desires your presence at the next meeting.
–noun 3. a longing or craving, as for something that brings satisfaction or enjoyment:

mo·ti·vate /ˈmoʊtəˌveɪt/ [moh-tuh-veyt] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–verb (used with object), -vat·ed, -vat·ing. to provide with a motive or motives; incite; impel.

—Related forms
mo·ti·va·tor, noun

—Synonyms induce, move, provoke, prompt, cause.

Pronunciation[moh-tuh-vey-shuhn]
–noun 1. the act or an instance of motivating.
2. the state or condition of being motivated.
3. something that motivates; inducement; incentive

Regardless of what you think the definition is, IMO, motivation and even desire is not nearly, nearly enough to "get the job done." I never insinuated that it was. Hmmm, maybe I did, I don't even know anymore what I insinuated or didn't. ;) I've been often misunderstood on this thread. Which is understandable, this is the internet afterall. It's hard getting across your true feelings. :dizzy:

I think that when you want it "badly enough", you then make a commitment to do, to find, whatever it takes and in however long and since we're talking weight and hence health here, I mean that "whatever" to be healthy measures, to get you there. And then you just can't "do it". You've got to set yourself up for success. That's where looking into your own particular obstacles (no matter what your "stool legs" may or may not be) and finding a way around them comes into play. Always open to fine tuning of course.

I'll be MIA for a few days. Got my swimsuit(s) and suglasses packed and am headed out for a long weekend. Be well all and have a super duper weekend. :smug:

Desire and motivation create the forward impetus. Part of this process is to eliminate - usually through experience - useless thougts, traits and actions. The hobnail boot removes the legs from 5 or six-legged stool until all that remains is a solid, stable 3-legged stool. That's how I view it anyway.

Good for you!

I agree, motivation is fuelled by desire, the question is whether desire is enough.

Are you saying that desire to be financial successful leads to criminal activity?

Au contraire. His motivation led him to the AHA moment.

But they do learn - sooner or later.

Precisely my point througout the thread. Many people without motivation would stop at any one of those failures and accept failure as the end result, whereas a motivated individual keeps coming back for more, and then each failure becomes merely a lesson to be learned on the path to ultimate success.

It sure doesn't, but then again I don't think anyone is saying that. If you are motivated you will keep coming back for more after each failure, acquiring knowledge on the way.

Yes it would, but then the specific goal of building a house would be unrealistic, you can't build a house if there is no chance of obtaining the necessary building materials. There is no point in having goals that cannot actually be achieved, that would be disastrous.

Err... I can't figure out how to 'unbold' the top part of my post. I didn't mean for it to be in bold, so please ignore :)

Wasn't it Glory who said earlier on this thread that for her (and we all know it is different for everyone) that it was the combination of motivation AND knowlege that started her on the road to weight loss success? I believe Glory said she tried (had the desire/motivation) for something like 20 years before the KNOWLEDGE kicked in to combine with her desire, and she began to lose in a healthy way.

I know that is still over simplifying the matter and not taking into account many, many things - physiological and emotional issues DO play a role, and I don't mean to discount those factors in any way.

To me this entire discussion could be boiled down to this:

Do you - or do you not - believe that it is possible for every overweight person to lose weight... and ultimately, keep it off?

I believe that it's going to be a very different journey for all of us, but I also believe that we would not be active members of a weight loss SUPPORT forum (Go 3FC!) if we did not believe it to be true.

It's very similar to the premise that I work under every day as a teacher - "EVERY CHILD CAN LEARN." I apologize for throwing another analogy into the mix. I am an optimist by nature, so of course I want to believe it, and I DO. But I am also enough of a realist to know that MANY, many factors go into a child's success in school, and many of them are beyond our control (and I believe this to be true in weight loss too). While one student can breeze by with A's, another may have to work VERY HARD for C's, ALL students DO learn - but they require different methods of teaching, and they learn to different degrees, but YES, they CAN all learn... of course!

As with weight loss, we must focus on controlling the variables that we can control -- and figuring out what those variables are, is perhaps the most important part of the journey. What are those variables??? Are they different for each of us? To some degree, I think they are the same, but to another degree, I believe they are very different.


This has been an interesting discussion, and I apologize if I am oversimplifying. I don't want to discount the many variables that Colleen and Heather have so eloquently put forth for our discussion. I'm going to be very honest and say that I don't feel that I understand those variables well enough to fully understand or even articulate about them, but I know that many factors are connected to weight gain, weight loss, and maintenance. I also realize that as a naturally average sized person for most of my life, and as a person who has only ever been about 20 lbs. overweight, I cannot possibly have the same insights or struggle that others do who have had much more to lose. So, really maybe my whole opinion is coming from a place of ignorance... I don't know! But I appreciate the fact that we have a chance to share our views and learn from one another.

Now hold on a minute. Weren't you the one who just said a bit before this that we should get away from specifics with our analogies? And yet here you are tossing Kaplods' analogy away because it's unrealistic? ;)

My point with your "60 pounds in 6 months or else" analogy is that that goal is unrealistic! That's why the analogy didn't work, in my opinion. You can't have it both ways, AJ--Kaplods' analogy isn't any less valid than yours.

Jay

Steady Jay, you're comparing apples and oranges. It's possible to lose weight if you have the desire, because there is nothing stopping you, it is a realistic goal because it is a simple case of eat less energy than you burn. The exact specifics of the goal will vary between individuals, depending on multiple variables.

It's impossible to build a house of you don't have the building materials. It is an unrealitic goal in those circumstances.

Is it truly impossible for some people to lose weight?

I have only myself to base any assumptions on, but I know that I can lose weight quite easily when I try hard enough. Not saying it's 'easy' as such, but I know what to do and how to do it and when I do it - it works.

If I really wanted to, and if I put my mind to it and was prepared to put in the hard work necessary, I could also make my body into a muscle-fest and start running marathons! I don't want to do that - I have absolutely no desire or motivation to go that far, but I have the ability to do so.

So for those people who say they really can't lose weight - the question has to be - why? What are they doing wrong?

I think if you have never lost weight, then you THINK that you really can't. I mean you haven't done it, so therefore it's because you CAN'T. You obiously really, really want to be thin, but you think that it's out of the question for yourself. And just thinking that way, can be very detrimental.

So yup, I always thought that weight loss was just not possible for ME. "I have no control". "My appetite is just too large. It takes too much to satisfy me" "I'm too short, if I were only taller." "I get hungrier quicker then most. I need to eat more often" "I have a slow metabolisim" "I am terrible at sports & I loathe exercise. In fact I'm too heavy to exercise." "I am SUCH an emotional eater, it's all I've never known." "I've been eating for comfort since I'm a kid." "I have too many social obligations." "I have the worst, strongest cravings in the world." "I'm just not capable of sticking to anything for very long." "But I LOVE bread, pizza, rice, cake and ice cream waaay too much". "I can NEVER give up those foods." "TOM is waaaay too hard." "I have too much to lose, so what's the point?" "It's just too hard." "I have no support." I've got kids and a husband at home who don't need to "diet"." "I'm addicted to food." Those were all my reasons for not losing weight. But now when I look at them (hindsight is really something, isn't it?) , they don't seem much like reasons, they seem more like EXCUSES. But at the time, I really, really thought they WERE legitimate reasons.

I did always hold on to the one shred of hope - deep, deep, deep down inside. I knew that there were others who had done it (thanks Oprah and the like for all those weight loss success stories) and I did have in the back of my head that weight loss WAS indeed a doable thing, which is why the feathers and wings analogy really struck me the way it did. Although I did know that it was doable, again, I didn't think it was doable for ME. Until of course I got miserable enough and tired enough, which is of course my experience, everyones' is different. And my way of thinking changed. Weight loss is so much in the mind. Instead of thinking that weight loss was not doable for ME, I started thinking, "Well why NOT me?" But I believe that to be the case because my desire to be thin OUTWEIGHED the desire for the food at this point. So I then devised a plan to combat each and every one of my "reasons/excuses". I was very methodical. But I still don't know if it was "the plan" that worked, or that it didn't matter anymore, and I therefore made the plan work. It's like which came first, the chicken or the egg? But truthfully, I think nothing mattered any more but getting the weight off. Because I wanted to be thin, MORE then I wanted the food. Finally, finally, FINALLY.

Hmmm, that didn't really do much to answer your question, now did it Robsia? But like you said, I've only got me, myself and I that I can speak for. I wonder then, is it truly, truly possible that some people can't lose weight, or is it truly, truly possible that some people can't STICK to something, so hence they can't lose weight? Or is it that they don't stick to something, so hence they don't lose the weight? :shrug:

Bravo, Robin

ETA: I hit send before I finished my post :lol:

Continued:

I agree with every word of your post, Robin. I truly believed I would never be able to lose weight. I had never in my entire life experienced a normal weight. iw ished and wanted SO MUCH to be thin and never got anywhere. I had a million reasons, but mostly I just couldn't believe it. And like you, I woke up one day and had ENOUGH.

I can't really add much more because you said it so well!

Quote:
People who are very motivated to succeed financially (by their definition) focusing their energies into criminal activities rather than legal ones (but them not being good enough at it not to get caught).

Are you saying that desire to be financial successful leads to criminal activity?
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Nope, just saying that the motivation for obtaining money could be channeled into different directions.

For most people crime doesn't pay (at least in my experience - because those REALLY good at it may not be getting caught).

Just like finding fires exciting could lead one to be an arsonist or a fireman.

____________________

Maybe a good deal of the difficulties in the discussion here is on different definitions of desire and motivation, and that's very possible.

As to everyone knowing and having the resource to lose weight. I don't buy it. If I had had the resources when I was younger I would have done it. If I had stacked the bc and followed a low carb diet I know that I would have lost weight and kept it off. I know it because I have always known my enemy, hunger. I just never knew how to control it and prevent it from controlling me.

I had desire when I was younger, and it was often enough a powerful enough weapon to help me win battles with Hunger, but never the war. I had lost most of my desire and most of my hope that it was possible by the time I found the weapons I'm now using, and I think it is reflected in how quickly I am losing. If I ate what I am eating now when I was 20, I would probably be underweight. My metabolism, through aging and dieting is ridiculously low. Twenty, even ten years ago, I would have told you it was impossible for a person my size to eat what I do and not lose weight. What did I know?

After 50 lbs, I'm just starting to get enough hope and desire back to the point that I feel I can trust them again as weapons in my fight.

My concern is that with enough failure, desire and motivation can be easily trampled. I'd like to get to people while their motivation and desire is strongest, because the information part can be easily shared. the desire and motivation, that's up to each of us individually. We've got to get to kids early, before they try their first crash diet. Because I truly believe the crash diet does more to fuel obesity than it does to weight control.