I don't see how that makes it circuitous. In my view lack of success merely proves the point that the desire was never great enough in the first place.
You're perhaps missing the point to a degree. If you want it bad enough you will be driven to do whatever is needed to achieve the end result, including learning about what to eat and what not eat. To illustrate my point, from your own post:Would you have lost 50 pounds if you weren't motivated enough to take the steps that allowed you to get there?

I tend to agree that there is a danger of taking a negative result to be the proof of the converse action, which is a logical error.

"If you want it, you will get it" does not necessarily mean "If you didn't get it, then you didn't want it." That is overly simplistic. There are plenty of things beyond our immediate control that influence outcomes.

All things being equal, though, a person does have to put forth some real-world effort to reach any goal.

Jay

There is PLENTY of which we don't have control over. PLENTY. And that statement "If you didn't get it, then you didn't want it" can not pertain to all things. And IMO, weight loss just ain't one of them. I don't think we have control down to the last itty bitty pound or 5lbs or even 10 or 15. There certainly are factors that people must contend with that would make that impossilbe. But for the most part, when you are morbidly obese, as I was, I did have control over that. I didn't have to be THAT overweight.

Would I like to be a few pounds lighter myself? You betcha. And I know if I tried harder, I could get there. If I put forth some of that "real-world effort" you are speaking about, I could get there. But apparently, I don't want it badly enough.

I've had a strong desire to lose weight since I was a child, and when I was younger I often went to extreme measures to lose the weight. Even though I wanted it, I couldn't do it. Now that I'm older and wiser and have the knowledge, tools, and context to make it happen, I'm losing the weight. I don't think I necessarily want it more today than ten years ago, because I wanted it just as badly then as I do now. But I'm in a different place in my life now where I can make it happen.

That's a GOOD point. I've said this many times to many people. I never could have done this when I was younger. I DO have more knowledge today and I do have more control over my circumstances.

But then it goes back to - if I really wanted it badly enough, even back then, I probably would have found a way. :dunno:

If you want to badly enough, you can grow feathers and wings
You don't have feathers or wings
Therefore, you must not want it badly enough
______________

the argument about fat is logically the same. Does that mean that motivation doesn't play a role in weight loss? Certainly, not, but it isn't the ONLY role, and how much of a role it plays varies tremendously from person to person and even situation to situation.

I do not "want it" more than I did when I was younger. I can convince myself that I do, but I would be very wrong. I remember the desperation and the willingness to do "anything." I am much more selective in what I am willing to do, and no longer willing to do "anything."

It was only accidental, not a result of my intense searching and efforts, that I found out the hormonal and carbohydrate link to my ravenous, freakish, appetite. If I had not discovered either, I would still be at least 35 lbs heavier. I say it has taken me three years to lose 50 lbs, but I recently descovered that it was less than a year ago that I saw the doctor who helped me discover both of these factors. So it didn't take me 3 years to lose 50 lbs. It took me two years to lose maybe 12 - 15, and I lost 35 or more in less than a year. It was only the accidental loss of a few pounds (off work because of disability, not sitting next to the vending machine, less stress, more sleep - no effort whatsoever to lose those pounds. No effort whatsoever) that inspired me to suspect I might be able to lose more, and inspired me to consult with the weight loss clinic, even though I knew I couldn't afford it. I didn't have much hope (or even desire) because I was so SURE that I couldn't lose weight, but figured "what the heck." I had no idea it would change my life.

I had asked doctors about the birth control stacking since my early 20's when I first heard you could skip periods. I'd always been told it wasn't something I should mess with (all male doctors), so I didn't try. It wasn't lack of motivation or desire that kept me from doing so, it was respect for my doctors' professional opinions.

It wasn't lack of desire that kept me from trying a low carb diet, it was the "common wisdom," and my doctors' professional opinions that kept me away from such a food plan. That and a couple of VERY bad experiences with very low carb diets (Atkins induction, for example) on those few occasions I was desperate enough to "risk my health" - because that's what I thought I was doing.

It was pure coincidence that I found a doctor I respected highly, because of my contact with her when she was doing walk-in clinic duty (in our hospital, all of the doctors have to periodically do clinic duty), and because she herself had lost almost 100 lbs (and her husband too) on a modified Atkins. It was she who advised me that bc stacking was perfectly safe, and that induction was not necessary to low-carb dieting. That she was the second doctor to suggest to me that I might try low-carb, inspired me to give it a try, even though I didn't have much hope of it working.

My LACK of motivation and desire IS a factor in why I haven't lost more in the last year. Quite frankly, I didn't expect it to work. Despite respecting the doctors who advised it, NOTHING had worked in the past, so I really didn't have much confidence in it.

If anything, the last year HAS been an attempt to prove these doctors wrong, to prove that I COULDN'T lose weight like this, or that I COULD lose weight the way "most" people can. It's almost been against all my efforts to the contrary that I still have lost 50 lbs. Because I keep trying (despite my now knowing that I shouldn't) to return to a calorie counting high carbohydrate diet.

I've only FINALLY completely surrendered. And, I expect my weight loss will speed up, as a result. Yes, desire and motivation play a role, but not the only role, and it is far from fair to say "if you want it badly enough, it is yours." Because for me, that has been so untrue. The more I wanted it, the crazier things I was willing to do - and it still didn't work. Because I had the information all wrong, and I wasn't allowing myself to "think outside" the societal box. I believed that low carb diets were bad. I believed that modifying my menstrual cycle was bad. Why? Because people I respected and "society" as a whole said so.

Did I finally want it badly enough to say "screw society?" NO - it was just an accidental meeting with one doctor? If I had not had that meeting, would I have lose the weight? I'm afraid to say, but I firmly believe, absolutely NOT.

I think the biggest problem with telling people that they "could lose it" if they want it badly enough, is that it says "you just don't want it." "It's all your fault." "You're an idiot." "And Insane as well."

Oh, that's not the way that the people saying it, necessarily "mean" it (though sometimes they do), but that's how it is interpreted. That's how I interpreted it, when people said it to me in the days I couldn't lose weight. And generally, it was far from motivating.

Now, if someone had told me I could lose weight without barely trying, I would have laughed. In a sense, I still laugh because I have had to try, even to lose the 35+ pounds this year, but the amount of effort (and yes, even the amount of desire) is a fraction of the desire in my 20's, and even my 30's. I have an amazing husband, so I am not dieting out of fear of being alone. I have learned to embrace "freakitude" so I'm not dieting to fit in.

It does depress me, if I dwell on it, because I KNOW that if I had discovered the hormone/carbohydrate connection at age 9 or 10 (when I first started menstruating and my weight EXPLODED), I would have escaped obesity, or at least the greater part of it. What would it have been like to have a normal life?

Can't dwell on that, because I woudn't have had MY life, and as painful as it has been, I'm rather attached to it.

Oh, I beg to differ - big time. It is most certainly NOT the same arguement.

I'm sorry, but your analogy makes zero sense to me. Zero.

The fact that others have done something, that is proof that it can indeed be done. That it can happen. Many people have lost weight. So therefore, losing weight is indeed a doable thing. I mean it's been proven.

Ummm, growing feathers and wings - not so much. I can't recall ever hearing of anyone doing this. As far as we know, it's something that can never happen. It hasn't been proven. Anyone that thinks that it can is most likely insane or an idiot. Those are your words, not mine.

I have never, ever said or even intimated that anyone is insane, or an idiot or anything remotely close to that. That would be most hurtful and more importantly, one million percent completely untrue.

I kind of have to agree with Robin here.

I don't think the feathers and wings analogy is apt. And I do believe that if you want something badly enough you can do it - not as in "miraculously make it happen" but as in "figure out a way to make it happen".

Kaplods, you obviously *wanted* it to happen or you wouldn't have kept on pursuing it - talking to various doctors, seeing the opportunity and taking advantage of it, working to figure out what worked with your body type and how you responded to different foods. You wanted it enough to continue making the effort to figure it out despite multiple past failures.

IN that sense, yes, if you want it badly enough ... you will figure out a way to make it happen.

(And if someone wanted wings and feathers badly enough, they'd find a surgeon willing to do it for them - after all, just do a google search on body modification and you'd be amazed at what's out there! :) )

.

:rofl:

Let's lighten up, folks. I don't really think we're disagreeing... It's all a matter of degree, and it's a complicated situation.

I also don't think anyone is calling anyone else anything. So, let's keep it respectful and play nice, OK? ;)

Jay

The point was not that motivation doesn't play a role. I didn't say that. But saying that a person hasn't lost weight because they just didn't want it badly enough - it can be a damaging argument. And while the person saying it may not be meaning to damage, it is within the "diet culture" for a person to take it that way. "You can do it if you really want to, and that you haven't done so proves you don't really want to," has a way of getting into a person's head in a way that says "you're not good enough, smart enough, motivated enough."

That people have lost weight, does not prove that it was motivation that was singularily or even primarily responsible. Or that if it was, that it is true for all people. Personally, because of my situation, I am actually surprised that motivation and desire had so little to do with my success or failure. If it was primarily motivation and desire, I certainly should have lost weight and maintained it much better during times in my life when my motivation and desire was at it's strongest, not when it was at it's weakest.

I lost weight despite not believing I could, or caring whether I did (at least initially). It's actually been the accidental loss of weight that reinspired me to give a rat's behind, and think it might actually be possible for me.

Of course motivation plays a role, but sometimes things (even weight gain and loss) are outside of our control. There are many times when people unintentionally and even unwillingly gain or lose weight. Sometimes, even often, motivation plays a role in overcoming the gain or loss, if desired.

I think stressing motivation and desire over other factors can be very misleading. "You can do it, if you really want it badly enough," is often accompanied by a similar, and just as misleading argument "any diet will work, if you follow it," which implies that one food plan is as good as another. A theory I have found VERY untrue for myself.

Motivation and desire are very important factors, but concluding that such a complex problem can be reduced simply to desire and motivation is misleading and potentially demotivating. Motivation and desire may be required for most people to lose weight (I would agree with that in most circumstances), but it is not sufficient to lose weight, and that is an important distinction.

I look at myself and think I have all the resources that should have made this process easier. Intelligent, well-educated, with a fair knowledge of health and nutrition (I even taught health and nutrition in a community college). Through most of highschool, I was so "motivated" that took prescription diet pills and only ate on weekends (not smart, and I even knew it at the time, but I was not only wanting to lose weight, I was desperate to lose weight).

You can get to Ireland if you want to, badly enough
You are not in Ireland
Therefore you do not want to get to Ireland badly enough

Maybe that is a better analogy. And there might even be some truth to it. But assuming it is the desire of a person in the US to get to Ireland, if they don't know that Ireland is not on the north american continent, it's going to be pretty difficult to get to Ireland purely on motivation.

Without a good deal of knowledge on my part and the assistance of other people, no amount of motivation is going to get me to Ireland or my ideal weight.

I am not looking to argue with you.

It is clear to me that our opinions on this matter are completely different. You can not convince me of yours and I can not convince you of mine. And that's okay. There's no need to. Because afterall, we're all entitled to our own opinions.

All the best. Robin :)

I'm sorry to dredge this up again. I DO have the habit of beating a dead horse from time to time, don't I? ;) But I was just rereading this post, actually it was my DD who was reading it. And your final thought struck me.

Anyway, I realize that maybe we DO have the same opinion on the matter. I think we may in fact be on the same exact page.

I agree with you completely - motivation alone will absolutely without a doubt NOT get anyone to Ireland or even across the street. And motivation alone is not enough to get someone (or most) to their ideal weight.

There's a lot more required. A lot. :hug:

Yes, but without motivation AS WELL - no one would do anything.

It's obviously motivation PLUS action PLUS knowledge.

PLUS commitment. PLUS determination. PLUS hard work. PLUS perserverance. PLUS willingness. PLUS dedication. PLUS. PLUS. PLUS....... :dizzy:

I think discussing the mental aspect of weight loss is incredibly important, because when you lose weight, especially when you've been fat your whole life, were raised fat by fat parents or have gained weight and have been that way for YEARS, you're not just combatting calories in vs. calories out, carbs, fats etc.; you're combatting your whole LIFETIME of choices and habits and inclinations, trying to break these habits and form new ones. It's always hard to break old patterns, ALWAYS, and when it comes to something like eating, which one MUST do to survive, it is extremely hard.

This has been an interesting thread to read.
I do not believe that I can do anything I set my mind to. I doubt if I had been born without hands, I could have been a hear surgeon. (Just an example).
I do believe that there are many things I can do if I set my mind to them. But the trick is learning how. Without the correct knowledge I just seem to run around in circles.
Case in point.
I started smoking when I was 13 years old.
I have smoked on and off for 55 years. This is an off time now.
Every time I quit, I gained weight. At first I thought it was my fault. I was just eating too much. Then I thought it was my fault, I was eating the wrong foods. Then I thought it was my body's fault. Something went wacky when I quit smoking.
After quitting and gaining, a few years ago, I joined WW flex and followed the plan to the tee. My leader and the district manager both agreed that my journal was the most complete they had ever seen, and still I could not lose.
I started smoking again, and the weight fell off. (I'm not recommending smoking as a weight control). I stayed under goal for years following the core plan and smoking.
Almost a year ago, I quit smoking again. I thought I knew how to do so without gaining. I thought I knew how to eat, what to eat, how to exercise, etc.
I certainly had the desire to not gain weight. I was willing and able to follow the program as written. But here I am again. 30 lbs overweight.
So for me, mind over matter did not work.

Hi AJ,

A few weeks ago I attended a conference that reviewed the steps required for people to change behaviors (at least according to some theorists). I posted a synopsis in Maintainers, but I think that it might be a nice review for this thread as well.

My post copied and pasted from Maintainers:

There are five steps to behavioral change:
1) Awareness--How many of us had to have that "aha" moment, that look in the mirror, or a picture, or bad labs, high blood pressure? We cannot address our weight as a problem until we are aware of it.

2) Motivation---we talk a lot about motivation on here, how fleeting and unreliable it can be, but that initial push has to be triggered by a bit of excitement, an "I can do this! I want to do this!"

3)Skills--we all know that we have to learn about food, exercise, our bodies. That is such a barrier for so many. We can know that we need to change, and then we want to change, and then we think "Now what?" Grapefruit diets? 500 calories a day? Running 7 miles right off the bat? So not only the skills to get started, but the skills we learn along the way. How to navigate weddings, in-laws, business trips....Improving our knowledge of physical activities....triathalons, weights, running, bicycling...

4)Trial and error. Who has ever made a misstep on this journey? We all all all have of course. We try and succeed, we try and fail, we keep trying and changing and trying again. And that is the KEY. The willingness to keep going, to keep trying.

5) Maintenance! I almost jumped out of my chair. I think the concept of maintenance in any behavioral change has been overlooked for far too long (of course, maybe it is only now that I have been looking for maintenance info!) We all know what maintenance is....continued awareness and vigilance to keep to our new behaviors.

I think that these steps do indicate a progression of sorts, but I also believe that they are somewhat fluid. I think that we can bop along maintaining for awhile and then we start making some other choices, and we are struck by the awareness step again. Regular weighing, anyone? We need tools to keep each of these steps up front in our consciousness---or at least I do! And I keep moving through and developing these steps daily. With a lot of help from you guys!

One last thought from this guy (again he was discussing adolescents, but I thought--WOW---he really is talking about anyone facing changes and choices), so with credit and apologies to Ken Ginsburg, MD:

"Confidence gets it started. Shame paralyzes all efforts."
End of copy and paste.

So in my opinion there are many factors to behavior change and all are important. Some may wax and wane in importance. For my life right now, the most important factor is creating and practicing skills and tools.

Like Kaplods, I am well versed in nutrition. I've taken graduate level courses and could regurgitate common wisdom and the sacred cows of nutrition. But those sacred cows actually don't work for my life. If you had told me a few years ago that I would be following a lower carb, high protein diet, I would not have believed it.

I am also surprised and delighted how much of a cornerstone weightlifting is to my new lifestyle. One of the "expert" theories floating around out there is that it is hard to gain muscle and lose fat simultaneously. That simply has not been true for my situation. So these tools, this way of eating that is high protein, my new found love and reliance of weightlifting---neither of these were in my graduate level nutrition courses that placed such an emphasis on moderate cardio and at least 50% carbs.

I too use my birth control in a continous fashion. That has made such a difference for me, and I am so glad it has helped Kaplods as well. There is a ton of research supporting continuous cycle birth control, and even a brief perusal of the 20-something thread sheds light on how much premenstrual hormonal fluctuations effect cravings and weight. That was a tool that Kaplods couldn't have possessed ownership of without her physician's assistance.

So, yeah, I am all about tools and skills right now.

Since we have had some fun analogies on this thread, I will throw in mine. I cannot say which of these 5 steps are the most important any more than I can say which of our 5 senses are the most important. The answer is, it depends. It depends on what a person's needs are. What I need to enjoy raspberries will differ from what I need to enjoy Beethoven, and the importance of these 5 steps will vary depending on where I am in my journey....or even in my day.

Thanks for such an interesting thread. I love all this theory stuff!

midwife,

I'm writing down those 5 steps to add to my journal (along with the 7 stages of change at the end of this post).

I can so relate to them (and of course your situation). The sensory analogy, I believe is a very good one. To some degree, a weakness in one sense can be compensated for with strength in another. Animals that have poor eyesight may have excellent hearing or sense of smell. Humans have relatively weak senses (all five), but our intelligence is our sixth sense, an important survival tool, as we can adapt the environment itself to compensate for our weaknesses.

One of the greatest human strengths is our skill in finding ways to do things more easily. In a sense, it's gotten us into this mess (the "epidemic" of obesity), but it also can be used to get us out. Because it's a multi-faceted problem, it will have to be a muti-faceted solution.

My husband (sometimes a rather cynical S.O.B.) often calls people "sheep" (blind followers), not even knowing "why" they are following the herd. My husband and I are "freaks" not only in being fat, but in being a bit on the odd side in other ways as well, so I rather interpreted this as he thinking arrogantly he was not a sheep (and maybe I as well). Then one day we were discussing my reluctance to follow a low carb diet, despite having proved to myself it's the only thing that works. It just goes against everything I was taught was the "right" way to diet, and I was having trouble doing it the "wrong" way. I told him that I was having trouble not being a "sheep," and he said again "people are sheep - we all are."

It hit me like a ton of bricks that he wasn't referring to "everyone else," but to humanity itself, including himself and me in the whole fleecy, sheepy package.

Yes, I can as easily "swayed" by all of the cultural context (media, family, social institutions, cultural norms and values...) as the next person.

Change is difficult, especially if it challenges social norms, values, and ties. The alcoholic may have a family and peer group that misuses alcohol. Some find that they can still socialize with others who are using alcohol around them, others have to break ties with family and friends and try to build a new, supportive social system.

In a real way, overeaters sometimes have to do the same. I do avoid many of the familial "food fests." A good part of the reason we didn't visit my parents at Christmastime was the insane amount of sugar that was going to be in the house (and luckily some bad weather and financial difficulties gave us a great excuse - not only an excuse for the relatives, but an excuse for myself, because it would have otherwise been difficult for me to say no, guilt and all).

I've realized for myself that a strong social support is vital. It's why I spend a good deal of time here. It's priceless to have even a few people who truly understand. It's why I joined TOPS, that weekly weigh-in, the weekly support and fellowship, it keeps me on track, in a way that I can't do alone. Sometimes, when I have no motivation or desire of my own, I can borrow bit of someone else's. When I don't care what I eat, or whether I lose, I might still care about, might still want that round of applause on Monday night. I like the attention. I like being asked "how did you do it?" Sometimes I care about those things MORE than I care about losing weight and getting healthy.

OF COURSE, it's stupid, and of course it's "sheepy," but I've got to use every trick I can to get this done.

__________________________________________________ ___________
Stages of Change

Precontemplation (Not yet acknowledging that there is a problem behavior that needs to be changed)

Contemplation (Acknowledging that there is a problem but not yet ready or sure of wanting to make a change)

Preparation/Determination (Getting ready to change)

Action/Willpower (Changing behavior)

Maintenance (Maintaining the behavior change)

Relapse (Returning to older behaviors and abandoning the new changes)

Transcendence (Eventually, if you “maintain maintenance” you will reach the stage of transcendence, not only is your bad habit no longer an integral part of your life but to return to it would seem atypical, abnormal, completely out of character for the "new" you.)

Great lists, Midwife and Kaplods!

I'm copying them too!!

You may want to do some reading there to see what's been covered in previous posts.it helps me for sure

Most definitely, the stages of change come up quite frequently here, so a search would bring up very interesting conversations people have had about the matter.

Boy, this has been quite an interesting thread. It just shows that it's definitely not a one size fits all subject. I truly believe some people have overweight in their genes, and not just because they grew up eating a certain way etc. That hasn't really been addressed, for some people it isn't just a matter of eating less and exercising more, unless it's done drastically.

As someone who was thin for years and years and then gained 10 lbs a year for about ten years without taking it off, it's not always a thing of binging or eating massive amounts. Sometimes it's eating just that little bit too much for too long and not dieting. I never struggled to lose weight back in the 70s or 80s and I don't think it's just cause I'm in menopause now.

Anybody who is around my age bracket will realize everything changed from that era. Every restaurant began serving up huge portions of food, instead of a dinner plate everything is a platter. Food was not something to be eaten in the car back then, no cupholders in the cars, not that many fast food drive thru's. You couldn't walk around a shopping center and have food available every few feet like today. Not that many people had microwaves either.

Add all that into people rarely walking anywhere (when is the last time you have seen kids walking to school); many schools eliminating physical ed.; the whole advent of the computer age when people sit in front of a screen for hours and hours every day or videogames, and is it any wonder so many got fat? When we used to go to the movies people didn't sit down with a full course meal and munch throughout the entire movie.

I live in California, where the weather is pretty much perfect every day, and I can count on one hand the number of people I see when I'm out on my daily walk. Most of them are only out to let their dogs do their business too.

Yes, I do think everybody can lose weight, but the real question is how many can maintain it for any length of time. I have been quite impressed with those in here who have managed to do it. I know myself and I will never have the figure I used to have, nor do I want to never eat out in a restaurant or go to a party etc. That is not an option. I just can't get my head round the you have to be so restricted and planning every meal and weighing every day and having the natural way of eating to stay alive be something that is so all consuming. No offense to anybody in here, but that is no way to live. God bless you if you can do it, but I can't. So I just try and cut my food down slowly and have really boosted up my exercise. I know it took at least 15 years to get this big and I'm not going to be able to remove it in six months.

Thank you all for the input, there are clearly many differing views, for my own part I have not been swayed from the opinion that if you want something enough your brain will be programmed towards achieving the goal and you will ultimately get what you want. In business we have SMART objectives, which must be:

Specific
Measurable
Achieveable
Realistic
Timebound

It is relatively easy to place losing weight within those parameters, whereas the desire to sprout feathered wings is outside the parameters, because it is not realistic.

Yes, that is a reasonable approximation of what I mean when I say that you don't want it enough. If the objective is SMART, then who else is there to blame for failure? If you dream about an achievable goal without actually achieveing it, IMO you are culpable.

Hey PaulaM! :wave: I know just what you mean, being somewhat close to your age. I was not a binge eater, either--I just overate at meals and parties and so on. I didn't gobble down boxes of cookies, but I never passed on the cookies, either.

I, too, am hoping that in time, eating to maintain my weight (when I get there--I don't consider myself done at this point, although I've passed my original goal weight) will be natural enough that I won't have to use a calorie tracker or formally measure foods out. To some extent, after months and months of training, I pretty much don't have to measure or weigh most things anymore. But for me, it was really necessary at first to find out what those portion sizes were, to figure out "a serving" and what it contained, and to know how many calories were in the foods I wanted to eat. Because, I didn't know! I really didn't! I was shocked when I found out how many calories are in a small order of McD's french fries, for example.

I tried just cutting down my food also, but without knowing in a quantified way what I was dealing with, my cutting down just didn't work well. I tried upping my exercise, but I wasn't consistent with it, and I let other things get in the way. Three times a week is enough, right? Well... no. :no:

I hope your plan works for you! Don't get me wrong! You may have skills that I lacked! :broc:

And I do look forward to the TRANSCENDENCE stage, when I no longer have to either be strict and in a state of constant vigilance, or be worried about backsliding into old habits.

Jay

Kaploids, I thank you for posting those stages. Quite intreresting.

I really don't ever see me being in the TRANSCENDENCE stage. Ever. Or maybe I should say the transcendence stage for me will be different. It won't mean that I can "let up" and "relax". I think (know) I will always have to be super, duper vigilient. I will always have to be on guard. I will always have to want it "badly enough" and therefore make it a TOP PRIORITY in my life. Cause' it's all too easy to head into RELAPSE.

Well you are at your goal weight and I'm far from it, so maybe I'm just talking out the top of my hat! I do admire all of you who have done it and maintain it too, you are inspirational.

The SMART objectives may apply well in business, and may also apply to a lot of goal setting and effective weight loss. I don't disagree with most of that.

But I can't help thinking that a lot of weight loss goes beyond the simple formulas we try to force on it. For instance, we say that weight loss is "calories in vs calories out" as if it is a simple formula. And yet, eat too little food and strange things happen in a body that is trying to do its best to keep us alive. If it were just about cutting more calories to lose more weight, we could starve our way to thinness, but it doesn't work that way.

And as a former morbidly obese person, I'm fascinated by the research that indicates that my body is different from the bodies of people who never became morbidly obese. There seem to be a lot of hormones and chemicals that work differently in the bodies of people who have lost a lot of weight, and a lot of those chemicals seem to act to encourage us to gain the weight back!! We are just beginning to identify these systems, we certainly don't seem to understand them.

So in my mind, many of the issues we're discussing have added layers of complications dealing with bodies that seem to have minds of their own, on some level.

How do we account the real complexities of weight loss and weight maintenance with simplified formulas?

Most "fat people" are expert dieters and have lost and regained weight a number of times. I think fat people must actually have a lot more will power than a thin person who never had a weight problem. Will power is not the answer because the will is easily broken or corrupted.

Excellent point thesusanone,

I think alot of my failure as a younger person can be directly linked to my thinking (as I'd been taught, directly and indirectly) that "willpower" was they key, and I just had to keep trying HARDER, not understanding the complicated factors that go into weight loss and maintenance.

In many ways, weight loss, for many people, can be like a tar pit, or one of those chinese finger traps, in which the harder you struggle at your bonds, the more tightly bound, you become.

Without knowledge or a strong system of social support, desire often isn't enough. Working as a probation officer, I so often met people who seemed to sincerely want to change, but the concept was so foreign to them, they had no idea where to start. One of the strangest cases was a young man who told me that he thought the judge had "set him up." When I asked what he meant, he said "probation is a setup, NO ONE can be expected to stay out of [legal]trouble for two whole years." Immediately, I was struck by the thought that this had to be the dumbest remark that I had ever heard issue from a human mouth (and as a probation officer, I'd heard alot), but it got me to thinking. I thought it was a crazy statement, because in MY world, I didn't know anyone (amongst my aquaintences, friends and family) who had gotten in trouble with the law in the last two years (and maybe only one or two who had ever). But, in looking at this guy's family, friends, and even aquaintences, it wasn't actually such a stupid statement, as most of his famiily, friends, and even casual aquaintences HAD gotten into some type of trouble in the preceding few years. In HIS world, staying out of legal trouble for two years, didn't seem to be a "reasonable" goal, and many of his peers might have agreed.

Even when working in probation and substance abuse treatment, we emphasized working to make will power less crucial. We told people to do what they could to set up their environment so that on their weakest days, abstainance was "easier" than relapsing. Not easy to do, especially if in their home, work, and leisure times, the people around them were engaging in the behavior they were trying to avoid.

"Peer pressure," is powerful. I remember when I was working with substance abuse and psychiatric patients in a hospital. In a couple of my counseling groups, I asked the patients what was the "normal" direction to stand in an elevatior (generally, facing the doors, everyone facing the same direction. o if it's a two door elevator, generally people will all face the same direction, even if "their" door will open to the other side). Then I told them of a study in which people when encountering people facing the "wrong" way in an elevator, nearly all chose to follow the crowd instead of standing the "correct" way. I was intending this simply as an illustration of peer pressure.

I actually upset the doctors and nurses with this one, because it inspired several groups of the patients to run their own little experiment. Facing the rear of the elevator or the side of an elevator, they watched and found that even the doctors and nurses responded as the study predicted. They did not ever ask "why is everyone standing this way," they just got in, looked a bit confused for a moment, and then got into line facing the direction as the experimentors.

When told of the reason behind the experiment, the doctors and nurses were a bit miffed at me (because it had embarassed them), at first. But later, the treatment staff voted to add it to the official curriculum, because it had been such a positive experience for the patients. Some of them, for the first time, feeling that they could change, ironically from seeing how easily "peer pressure," influences even the "best" of us. Many said something to the effect that they had thought that there was just something fundamentally wrong with them that they were unable to "resist" peer pressure, and now they understood why the counselors were pressing them to change their environment, and surround themselves with people who weren't users.

Weight loss is very similar, though even more difficult to find a positive peer group to "surround ourselves" with. Yet, many of us have found ways to do so (coming here and/or joining other weight loss support groups on and offline).

Complicted problems, complicated solutions, and each component will have a different degree of difficulty and importance for each individual.

Peer pressure, environment (and oh so many other things) are all obstacles in our way very often. All the time in fact. I mean there will always be obstacles. And they will certainly, CERTAINLY make things more difficult - but not impossible.

At some point, and for everyone that point will be different, you just have to say enough already. It doesn't matter anymore. Nothing matters anymore. And as difficult as it may be, you find a way around those obstacles. And every other one that is thrown at you. Because nothing, nothing matters as much as getting the weight off. Nothing.

It comes to a point where you can't "excuse" it away anymore. Because if you want it, you'll find a way, if not, you'll find an excuse. Thanks Meg. :hug:

LOL - interesting about the elevator thing. if I get in a two-door elevator I will nearly always stand side on, with one door on my right and the other on my left. I resist peer pressure whenever possible - I love to go against the flow. Provided it doesn't make me unsociable that is - I don't push to the front in queues or anything like that.

However I am sure there are examples where I unconsciously do do what others are doing.

In my personal experience, a lot of what made me succeed at losing nearly 100 pounds (so far) was changing my attitude (and behaviors) about weight loss. A lot of people I know think they could eat whatever they want if they would just exercise--I thought the same. I thought, when I was very young, that I could lose weight, and then go back to eating the same (high-calorie) food I always ate. I wanted a way to lose weight fast and with minimal discomfort. I heard, too, that the key to losing weight was to lower my calorie and fat intake, and up my activity level. I'd do this for awhile and grow tired of it, for some reason or another, many times. All I could figure, this time around, was that I had to change the way I thought about things...it would take a long time, because I had a lot to lose....I had to reduce my calories and be careful of what I ate....I didn't ban high-calorie favorites, just started eating them as a few-times-a-year treat rather than as a few-times-a-week staple. Exercises and activities I thought were "too hard" and abandoned, I looked at as a challenge and worked my way up to (I certainly couldn't do jumping jacks when I started, but I can now). Walking a few feet used to be hard and got me out of breath; now I'm doing "Couch to 5K" and can run half-an-hour without stopping. I had to change my habits: when I used to watch t.v. at night, I'd often get up during commercials and get something to eat; now, I keep a catalog open and thumb through it during commercials and I admit, looking at clothes in the regular section and realizing they fit now gives me a feeling of pride. As for exercise, I had to make it a habit I followed every day and did it even when all I wanted to do was veg out in front of the t.v.

And of course, being human, I'm far from perfect. Usually I can pass up cookies and pie people offer me, but occasionally I don't. I expect my TOM this week, and find it especially hard. I got home late last night and didn't exercise all day. Happens occasionally, I just pick myself up, dust myself off, and get back on the horse.

Sorry to make this so long, just wanted to get in my two cents. I've been reading this topic and it's been really interesting...everyone has such good points.

Great job! I hope to be able to make the changes you made. They are the key to success because it has to be a lifestyle change. It takes the willingness to get up and persist every day. I see that now. But it's not an easy thing to face. Once you get past that reluctance to change your viewpoint about it...then you can just start doing it every day. I think of it that way now and it helps me to cope with the reality of it. In other words, it is not an easy thing to grasp but once you do, then you are more than half way there. There are also challenges along the way. I have been "dieting" for a few months now and recently I have been feeling hungrier than usual. I'm not letting it stop me. I am just getting back to basics and dealing with it by eating more low calorie foods. But it's hard. There is something very real about the things you go through on a physical level, concerning hunger and energy level.

No prizes for guessing that I agree with Meg all the way on this. Great post Meg!

It's interesting to me to note the positivity and determination that shines through Meg's wording and phrasing, it's also particularly interesting to me to note just where Meg's attitude has got her to, i,e, currently maintaining.

I have a somewhat cynical scenario to place before you for discussion. I apologize in advance for any offence I may cause.

Think of the person (or one of them) you love the most in this world: it could be your children, spouse, a parent etc.

Now imagine this:
A crazed gunman captures your loved one and sends you a demand: "Unless you lose 60 pounds in the next six months you will never see [loved one] again. If you can lose 60 pounds in that time, I will return [loved one] unharmed.

Now, honest answers please, who thinks that they would not be able to lose 60 pounds in six months under these circumstances?

I could, but I'd have to go to drastic lengths to do it. It would not be healthy, and I'd probably lose muscle and bone density. I might not fully recover from this, and I'd probably gain weight back.

Jay

AJ buddy, I think now YOU'RE not the one being realistic. I mean, thank G-d scenarios like that just don't happen. No one will EVER be that motivated.

Although, I will say, it came to the point for me, that I DID look at my weight loss as "life or death". And one of the biggest motivators for me was the constant worry about "who would be there for my kids?". Although I certainly worried about that for a long time prior to making the commitment. Guess I had to be worried enough to make the switch.

I so totally agree with this. We *all* have issues in our lives. We all have busy lives. We all have things that we're dealing with. We all have social lives that involve going out with friends and having to deal with restaurants and eating out. And eventually the "I don't have time to exercise" and "I don't like veggies" and "I don't have time to cook" and every other excuse in the book that's been used ... eventually those excuses just don't cut it any more.

It was the same for me just as for everyone. At some point you decide to stop making excuses and start doing it.

.

Interesting scenario, AJ, but I have to agree with JayEll. That's a scenario where you might lose the weight, only to gain it back again. And that's not really a success, in my mind.

"We all know what we should be doing to lose weight, so why don't we do it? It's not like it's a well-guarded secret, I doubt if there is a forum member who doesn't know exactly what to do to lose weight.

So why do we all struggle?"

I may be the only person that has this problem: Self pity! I spent years feeling sorry for myself because so many of my skinny friends could eat whatever they wanted and not exercise and never have a weight problem. I was convinced that it was in my genes to be fat and there was no way I could overcome that. I thought it was a huge mountain that I could never get over. It just wasn't fair that I would have to starve myself and exercise to such extremes to lose the weight and keep it off. It took a shift in my thinking, no longer feeling sorry for myself and spoiling myself. When I finally got so disgusted with the whole thing, the self-hatred, the not being able to do so many things because of my weight, avoiding so many things in my life because of it. Realizing I will die from this if I don't change. I think I had to get to this age, 44, to have the maturity to deal with it. So what if I can't eat like others. So what if I have to exercise five times a week. It is worth it to be healthy and have a better life. I am the only one that can change this and it is do-able! There is so much more to it than that, but the self-pity was really the big one for me. This forum is a huge help!

First Robin may I apologize for calling you Meg in my earlier post, I got myself mixed up with the quote in your sig.

You've missed my point somewhat, Robin. I deliberately exaggerated a scenario in order to illustrate clearly that it really is all down to motivation: Most people would agree that they would lose the required weight in that situation, but what has changed? There are still McDonalds on every street corner, candy bars in every shop and peer pressure wherever you go. NOTHING has changed except one thing - your paradigm.

Of course it's not realistic, but it serves to underline my point.