Just an aside, leptin causes satiety not hunger. But your point was still clear.

Kaplods -- your post was spot-on, I think. I too think that many people, myself included, became overweight not because they didn't desire being thin enough (it was my deepest desire for my whole life), but because bad food choices from childhood (possibly made FOR them by well-meaning people when they were very young) helped them form chemical food "addictions" that perpetuate and cause weight gain. I'm not saying I didn't willingly gorge on doughnuts and cookies, but WHY did I feel I needed them SO badly?

Obviously, it takes some force of will to pick yourself up and decide to get to the bottom of your problem -- be it chemical, emotional, whatever -- but much of it is just plain physical and physiological, imo, for lots of people. Also, as walkingtolose pointed out, lots of overweight people demonstrate great discipline and drive in other areas of life -- getting degrees, performing well at work, being good parents and spouses, etc. Why not apply those skills and that will to the weight problem? When you're chemically addicted, willpower and desire and emotional strength aren't (always) enough.

I remember being like 12 or 13 years old, desperately trying to lose weight so this guy I liked in school would notice me (HA!). Anyway, there I was, sitting on the couch after school, telling myself, CHANTING TO MYSELF, "you will not have a rice krispie treat, you will not have a rice krispie treat..." The spirit was willing but the flesh was weak... I ate something like FIVE (5) rice crispie treats that afternoon (except like an hour later than I would have).

AJ - no problem. You can confuse me with Meg any time. Any time at all. Works just fine for me.


That's it. When you want it badly enough, you search and search until you FIND what works for you. Not only that, but you make it work. Whatever it is. If your metabolisim is slow and you lose weight more slowly or even at a snails pace, so be it. It doesn't matter. If you have intense, intense cravings - you ignore them or find ways to deal with them. It doesn't matter. If you are truly addicted to food, you manage it. It doesn't matter. If you are always hungry - you learn to deal with it. It doesn't matter. If your time is limited, if your budget is limited, if you have horrendous stress to deal with, if you are constantly faced with tempation, if you have zero support - it does not matter. You do whatever it takes, no matter what your situation, as hard as that may be. You find a way around it.

This reminds me of what my sister has said to me several times, I've mentioned this in another thread recently. When I've discussed with my sister some of the foods I eat and how I am more then satisfied having the same lunch most days of the week, she answers back, that I was at the point that if I had to eat cardboard for the rest of my life in order to get and then stay thin, that I would do it. I don't believe that to be the case and am darn grateful that it didn't come to that, but you get my point.

Another thing. I've heard success and failure thrown around during this conversation. And I hear it quite often hear at 3FC. Please forgive me, but I never understood the thing about feeling that one is a success or a failure if they can't get a handle on their weight issues. I certainly didn't get a handle on it for over 20 years. Heck I'm still trying to. I did feel as if I was a failure AT losing weight, but it didn't mean that *I* was a failure. As heavy as I was, I never considered my entire SELF a failure, just that one aspect of my life. Just like now that I have been successful at weight loss, doesn't mean that *I* am a success. And the truth is I won't consider myself a *true* success at weight loss, until I've kept if off for my entire life. Or at least until my upper 80's. Then we'll see about it. Not sure why I felt the need to mention it just now, but it has been bugging me for a bit.

Oh and Claire, AJ is a guy. Just thought I'd let you know . And he started quite the discussion here,much food for thought.

Just one more thing I'd like to add, I hope each and every one of us finds whatever it is that works for each of us. Because it's out there.

I think the problem with reducing weight loss (or any change) to simple motivation, is that it's a lot like the argument sometimes seen for faith healings - if there is no miracle of healing, it's because your faith or mind wasn't strong enough. There are many religions and philosophies that believe this, but I don't think God works that way, and I don't think motivation works that way either. There are many people who do have extremely strong almost super-human motivation, desire, and drive, and yet still do not reach their goals. My brothers dream was to be a Navy Seal, and he worked at the qualifying tests until he passed them all, and then was not accepted because his vision was not good enough (I found it a bit strange that the Navy wouldn't test the vision first, but I guess they want to see what people can do, even if they know from the start, they'll never make it).

I think a better way to look at motivation is to see it as being one leg of a stool (I wish I could take credit for this analogy, but I didn't come up with it. Rather it is one a psychology professors used when teaching us about the resources necessary for successful cognitive-behavior change of things like substance abuse, gambling etc.... though I think weight loss applies equally as well). Depending on how many legs you start with, and the strength of those legs, you can kick out one or even a few and might still have a functional stool, but the fewer legs you start with, or the more unevenly spaced they are, the more important some legs are than others.

I don't think motivation is a leg that you can ever remove and still have a functional stool. However, the stronger the other legs are, the less weight needs to be born by motivation. When the professor used the model in class, he asked us to name some of the legs they thought needed to be under the stool, and I'm sure motivation, desire, commitment were named, but there were also things like social support (inside and outside of the family), intelligence, education, values, stress management, physical and emotional resources....

He drew a lot of weird stools on the board with 1 to 10 legs, of different thickneses and lengths, and spacings. Then he started erasing some of the legs or shortening them and asking us which would still support a person. Sometimes it was obvious, and sometimes we'd laugingly answer that it depended on the person.

"Ah, that's a good point," he said. "Which of these would you let your 95-year old grandmother sit on?" "How about a two year-old child?"


I know when I counseled people, I didn't use the stool analogy per se, but did focus on people making change easier by strengthening the resources they could. As a probation officer, we encouraged probationees (whether it was part of the court order or not), in getting a job, going to church, forming positive relationships, joining support groups, close ties to family (if the family was a positive influence), pursuing education and even things like taking care of their personal hygeine, getting dental and medical care and otherwise improving their health and appearance, as well as things like finding positive hobbies and leisure activities.... because all of these things have been proven to increase a person's chance of staying out of trouble.

It's true for weight loss as well. The tiniest and oddest things can be a great help. I love crafts. There are many that I could easily do while eating and drinking, but the more time I spend on one that I can't eat doing, the better tool the hobby is for my weight. Even my crochet. With dark colored acryclic yarns, it was easy to think "Eh, if I spill something on it, I can just wash it," especially if I was making the item for my husband or I. But, now that I'm choosing to make projects as gifts and consciously choosing lighter and more delicate fibers - I don't eat while crocheting, because I don't want to risk staining the items. The more this became a habit, the less I thought of eating, even when using sturdier, more forgiving fibers.

I don't think motivation is every a strong enough leg to stand on its own. I remember that even in graduate school, we were taught that when a person with a drug or alcohol problem could ONLY identify will-power as their strategy for change, they were least likely to succeed. Desire to change, poorly correlated with actual change. The people with the most desire, were not the most successful, and I think that takes us back to the stool analogy.

Some rather weakly motivated people may still have more success than some highly motivated people, if they have enough support in other areas. An example might be in searching for a job. One not-very motivated person might get a better job faster than a very motivated person can get crappy job, if the less motivated person has a dad who owns the company (another somewhat extreme example).

A person who has a lot of obstacles (termites?) may need a lot more legs on their chair. A person with few obstacles (and very good balance) may even be able to use a chair with only one thin leg.

I think when we rely on only motivation, we're a lot like Goldilocks, breaking a lot of chairs to find the one that's "just right." But, just the act of falling on our butts, can cripple us to the point that we reduce the odds of finding a chair that will work for us (we need more and stronger legs on our chairs than when we first started looking).

I am so grateful that I've finally found my chair, but it has a lot more legs on it, than it would have if I had found two of my legs earlier (the hormonal and carb connections). I could have been sitting comfortably for much of the last 36 years on a much less sturdily built chair (both figuratively and literally).

I think what we do here, is share information on legs. Motivation is a very important one, so we talk about it alot. For many people it IS the strongest leg they have, and the one they want to share with others, but it isn't the only leg and that is very important to share, because a person can compensate for any weak leg, by adding and reinforcing others.

I don't know how I feel about this. Maybe because we had such different experiences with dieting. If I remember correctly (and I might be wrong!) you were heavy and never tried to diet, this was your first weight loss attempt?

I dieted for 20 years, so part of me is just hurt and insulted by the thought you think I (and anyone else like me) just didn't want it badly enough. I can assure you that I DID want it. Maybe it just took me the 20 years to find what worked for me, but it definitely wasn't a lack of wanting and trying.

I painfully, desperately, wanted to be thin. I agonized over my weight. I was in a funk and depression. I didn't shop, I didn't look at myself, I didn't allow pictures - I dreamed/fantasized constantly about losing weight - it's hard to describe in text the depths of my wanting, but it was soul deep - for YEARS.

I wanted it so badly, that I did a lot of unhealthy things - starving myself, dexatrim, slim fast, lost my period once (only time in my life), hair fell out by the handfuls in the shower. I did think it was mind over matter, end justifies the means, lose weight by any way possible, no matter what. That kind of thinking was really really bad for me. I did think if I wanted it badly enough I could lose weight, I thought there was something wrong with me, I was weak, I had no willpower.

It is just hard to describe how I feel when you say "if you want it badly enough, you can lose weight" because it makes me feel like a loser for 20 years - that if only I had wanted it ENOUGH I could have lost weight when I was 20. I just feel that desire was only part of the equation for me (an important part).

Glory, no, no, no. I apologize deeply and sincerely if I've offended you or anyone else. I never, ever meant to imply that anyone is a loser or a failure if they have not gotten off the weight. NEVER. In fact that's why I wrote that I just don't even get that logic. Of thinking of oneself as a loser or a failure if they can't do it. I don't think being overweight means that one is a failure. Or even close. I don't think that one's weight defines one self. There's a lot more going on in a person then their weight.

And yes, I did attempt "dieting" for 20 plus years just like you. But unlike you, I never lost any significant amount of weight. I always say that my attempts were half hearted because I never could/would do it for very long. So therefore, MY take on it, was that it was half hearted. That I didn't put my ALL into it. And I don't "count" it as much. I've obviously given the wrong impression.

But Glory, I think we're basically on the same page here, you just don't care for my wording. I think you're a perfect example. I have no doubt that you did indeed want it badly enough. No doubt at all. So therefore, you DID find a way to make it work. You didn't give up. It may have taken you 20 + years - but you DID it. You kept trying and trying and trying until you discovered what worked for you. My belief is that you wanted it so badly, that you were williing to keep on plugging away and plugging away, even after many so called failed attempts, until you found what worked for you. Sure it took you over 20 years to do so. So be it. That just shows how badly you wanted it. I think it's unheard of that anyone gets it down pat on the first try. Or the second or the third, or the fourth or fifth.... Luckily we're given as many attempts as we need. There is no limit. We can keep trying and trying and trying. And we should.

Just a note to walking2lose to say, Yes, I do get the analogy, and no, I am not missing the forest for the trees.

My point was simply that the numbers were unrealistic to begin with. And, I'd have to acknowledge that when push came to shove, I might not lose 60 pounds in 6 months, and I'd never see my loved one again.

Motivation is not the same as will power, in my way of thinking. Will power has more to do with commitment, which is a different step. Most overweight/obese people can find some motivation to lose weight. But wanting to isn't enough. If it were, the problem would be solved.

Jay

I doubt very much that I'd be able to lose 60 lb in 6 months, even with that incentive. And if I did I think I'd probably be dead. 87 lb is not a healthy weight for a 5'5" tall woman.

However I could easily put 60 lb ON in 6 months.

I'm glad Glory brought this up. I toyed with the idea of raising this point the past couple of days, but for time reasons, I didn't.

Regardless of whether anyone intends it, I have a feeling there could be a lot of people reading this thread and feeling just like Glory did. It's sort of a slap in the face to be told you just aren't trying hard enough when you feel like you're giving it your all.

I think a lot of people do want it very badly, but either don't know how to be successful long term. When they are faced with plateaus and/or lapses and collapses, they don't keep fighting and finding new ways to succeed, but they give up. (At least, I did). They give up not because they don't want it, but because they are at a loss. They start to figure they just can't do it (at least, I did!)

As has been raised already, it's not that motivation isn't important, but as Colleen has noted, it's only one leg of the "stool". Knowledge is another important leg. And there are more. So, you can want it all you like, but if you don't have the knowledge of how to lose and maintain successfully for you, you will probably fail. (Again, I think we don't really disagree on much).

And there may be some of us who have situations that are very difficult to find successful solutions for (thyroid issues, etc). We may not yet KNOW these solutions.

It is estimated that 75-95% of people fail to maintain their weight loss. Do they all really not want it enough? It is my hope that as we learn more about successful weight loss and maintenance and find new knowledge about our complex bodies, that the rates of "failure" in weight loss will improve.

PS -- Julie thanks for the clarification on leptin. I had a feeling I was getting it wrong!

Hmm... there's an interesting scenario. A loved one is taken hostage, and will only be released if you GAIN 60 pounds in 6 months...

I could do that! And I would.

I also hate the "hostage, lose 60 lbs scenario." If someone kidnapped a loved one and I had to lose weight - I'd amputate a leg or something. Fast, permanent weight loss. If a mother would die for a child, they would do ANYTHING.

I wanted to respond more, but I'm late for work!

Again, I sincerely apologize if anyone has felt this way even for a teeny, tiny second.

Hey I just answered a sweet PM from Robin and I want to make sure everyone knows I am not upset with Robin!!! So I will repaste it in all it's rambly glory (hee):

Oh, Robin - you didn't have to apologize! I may not have agreed with your post, but I was never mad at you!

You know how it is, weight loss is just so...fraught with emotion - everything is so huge and personal! I tend to view everything through the lens of my own experience.

And I do try to understand your experience, that you tried a bit, but it didn't click for you until your fear of leaving your kids alone or some of the other things you've shared gave you the impetus you needed to make the huge changes required.

For me, I wanted it, but I never could quite figure out how to do it. And I thought I was finding the right knowledge, but it was a lot different 20 years ago! It was all grapefruit diet and dexatrim and VLC and slim fast and the Rice Diet. I did so much reading, I did try a lot of things - Low Fat - all the conventional wisdom of the time. And I really did try so hard, crazy crazy stuff. That's probably why your comment resonated so much with me, there's no way I could have wanted it more (okay, maybe if I had been diagnosed with diabetes or something like that). I didn't want it more in July 2004 than I wanted it at any other time in my dieting life.

Hmmm, I think it's that I DID think if I wanted it badly enough I could do it, and therefore since I didn't do it, I must not want it badly enough (therefore it was a breakdown in ME, my willpower, my desire). This goes back to those unhealthy thoughts I used to have about being "In control" and feeling "out of control" that always plagued my dieting history. I let my self worth get wrapped up in not only my weight, but my weight loss attempts. Since so many other people were dieting and losing weight (my perception, ignoring the facts/statistics/reality about weight loss and maintenance), since I couldn't do it, something was wrong with me. "Something must be wrong with me, I wanted it so bad!? was how I thought. I thought I was a weak, no will power loser.

Of course, now I know better and I'm in a better, healthier place about me.

I am sorry I made you feel you needed to apologize! I think I just tossed some of my own baggage on you in that thread! I do like this board and the ability for all of us to put our hearts out there, just pour out our souls and history and thoughts and experiences - I definitely think it's okay to come at things from different perspectives!

You are one of my absolute favorite posters and like I posted in your 1 year anniversary thread, you do inspire me every day! I am really sorry I made you think I was truly upset!

**** yea!