I reread your post, and I have be honest and say that it was indeed mocking; your contempt for potatoes and low fat cheese comes across quite well, and with attitude. Perhaps you misspoke?
My links were to stories about mortalities (US mainly) where Atkins was mentioned as a possible cause.
As for fresh produce - I lived in the US and we had a **** of a time getting anything fresh at all - even the apples were covered in wax in the supermarket - we were told it was because things have to travel much vaster distances than in Europe. When our Mid-Western supermarket ran out of something (unthinkable in European supermarkets) - you might wait a week or two for them to restock. I'm aware it's not the same 'back East'. But trust me, where I lived in the US there was NO organic produce whatsoever for sale ANYWHERE in our entire town. And almost nothing a European would recognise as 'fresh' on the shelves.
Think the person who says we can;t buy fresh produce in the Uk has been badly misinformed. We have entire aisles of every supermarket you care to go in, full of the stuff and you can buy organic produce in every single high street in the UK. We also have more access to health food stores than you have and 'alternative' medicines are even in large national chains of chemists (drug stores) - we have no problem getting anything fresh. We also have markets, farmers' markets and where I live, you can go to farms direct and buy, too. I never had a single option like that in the US.
For anyone to think the US (Home of all those appalling burger/taco chains and vile chemical confections like Twinkies, Oreos, etc etc) could possibly be a paragon of 'fresh produce' is frankly hilarious. In our year there we never found any fresh food whatsoever. Or nothing we'd recognise as fresh.
Maybe is a cultural thing. Not only is healthy food more freely available in Western Europe - but so is booze. Another big cultural difference - we have one (or two) aisles of our supermarkets full of wines from all over the world. I couldn't even buy Californian wine in Colorado unless I went to a liquor store.... Booze and fresh food! Sums up our culture, maybe....
Thanks for the encouragement - I will write this article - I have a bit of a writing sideline in freaky things and like writing about people who need de-programming in some way so dunno why this one never crossed my mind! What interests me is the language of brainwashing and the same motifs cropping up again and again - eg: low carbers complaining that the anti folk are only looking at induction (think I had a link or two to disprove that?) - it's almost robotic. Brilliant stuff! ALl that typing's made me hungry. Where's my fresh, local, organic spuds gone? And some low fat cheese, maybe.... Ah no hang on, eating healthily including carbs doesn't work, does it - I must have imagined going down 5 dress sizes simply by eating wholefoods and mountains of carb?
Last edited by PhatPhoenix; 06-29-2008 at 10:52 AM.
We also have markets, farmers' markets and where I live, you can go to farms direct and buy, too. I never had a single option like that in the US.
PhatPhoenix, this really depends on the region of the US. When I was living in the midwest, there were very few places to get really fresh, organic produce. Right now I live in Vermont, where locally-grown organic food is everywhere. There are plenty of organic farms here where one can buy shares and get fresh produce each week. We also have a few farmer's markets, health stores, and a really great food co-op overflowing with fruits, veggies, wines, locally raised meats and dairy products, artisan breads, and all the nuts, seeds, beans, legumes, and grains you can imagine. Just yesterday at the farmer's market I picked up some organic squash, plums, strawberries, beets, spinach, asparagus, sweet potatoes, honey, blueberries, and raspberries. I downed nearly a whole pint of strawberries when I got home!
Ever since I moved here and discovered the joys of natural whole foods my health has improved dramatically. I can't believe some of the things I used to eat, or that at one time I believed eating that way was normal! And though it took a few months, I think my body finally realized it was getting the nutrients it needed so it didn't need to keep searching for more food. My cravings are gone, and for once, I feel satisfied.
Yes Drina, I thought it was different back East or elsewhere and think I said that! But it struck me as funny for someone to say that people who follow Atkins in the UK are more likely to die because we have a more rubbish diet - than the US! Especially as, where I lived, there was no fresh food. I can't think of a place in the UK where that would ever be the case!
The Atkins related deaths I linked to (shock horror for the Atkins fans some of them actually in newspapers not academic journals!) were mainly if not entirely US not UK, so for the Atkins fans to dismiss my post as it's from the UK struck me as disingenuous.
And again still feel no-one has addressed this, in this thread. Why follow a diet with any deaths associated with it? Even one? Are you literally dying to be thin? I know I'm not!
And can't believe there are Atkins adherants who claim never to have heard of the various fatalities associated with it? (As I said before not just the heart stuff you'd expect but as kidney disease and other problems). Where have you been for the past ten years? (Too weak from lack of carbs to hold up a newspaper)? I've heard of these stories and I have zero interest in ever low carbing - so how could you follow Atkins, or low carb and maybe be on relevant forums etc and not have ever discussed this before? Am I straying into Taboo territory, here?
For me, all diets aren't created equal and I think we can hide the truth behind the 'generous' mindset of 'Whatever works for you is fine'. Isn't this about health, not about getting thin? And how could you be healthy if your body is in ketosis? Those are very basic points that no-one who supports Atkins appears to be capable of answering.
Last edited by PhatPhoenix; 06-29-2008 at 11:59 AM.
Uh peanut butter has been linked to death, so maybe none of us should eat it? Penicillin, NSAIDS and other life-saving and life-improving prescription medications have been linked to deaths. Even some recreational activities, such as sky diving, scuba diving, hangliding, and rock climbing have been linked to death.
Personally, no matter how healthy and in shape I became, I would never jump out of a plane, but it certainly should not be banned or avoided by EVERYONE.
I was being facetious about the deaths in the UK thing, sorry I said it, and sorry you took it literally. There HAVE been posts on this site from people complaining about not being able to find fesh produce in the UK. My guess is, just as in the US, it varies incredibly, along with diet AND alcohol consumption, from region to region. For example, I have never lived or visited a city (and I live in the Midwest, from Central Illinois, and now in Northern Wisconsin) in which only liquor stores sold liquor and wines. Most decent sized grocery stores had several aisles of wines and other alcoholic beverages. And most pharmacies also have a large and varied wine and liquor departments. Though some cities or counties still have "blue" laws in which alcohol cannot be sold, or cannot be sold on certain days, mostly Sundays. We have a friend living in Missouri (part of the region in the US known as the "bible belt") and in their county, wine, beer, and liquor cannot be sold on Sundays or Wednesdays (because both are "church" days in the area).
I realize that I mispoke about no deaths being associated with the diet. Even in Atkins books, he warns that the diet is dangerous for people with kidney disease, and that a good checkup really is required before beginning the diet (because kidney disease can be symptom free, nearly to the point of kidney failure). Another link to deaths is from "rabbit starvation," people who eat ONLY protein and try to live virtually carbohydrate and fat free. This is a deadly combination, as seen recently in the Kim kins debacle. A woman who pretended to have lost over 100 lbs on "her" version of Atkins. It even received a very favorable article in a very popular magazine called Womans World. It's reputation is far better than the Enquirer type tabloids, but it is still a "fluff" magazine. She advocated a very low calorie, very low fat, very low carbohydrate diet. People started getting sick and suing her, and I believe there have been a few deaths. A protein only diet, will kill people. This was known FAR before Atkins, as it's name "rabbit starvation" refers to. In the days of wagon trails, on the journey West, people who were forced by circumstances or season to live off of rabbit and little else (very little fat on a rabbit) died. Thus the name, rabbit starvation.
Ketosis is often mistaken for ketoacidosis. One is deadly, the other not. Ketosis does not inevitably lead to ketoacidosis, unless you have kidney disease, or are not drinking enough water with the high protein diet. Wolves and other predators, are often in ketosis, because even those that are true omnivores may have primarily carnivorous diets during the winter. They will die, and often do die in the winter, from ketoacidosis if they are unable to find sufficient water.
I do believe that the Atkins book includes most of the information a person needs to know to follow the diet in relative safety, but it is true that many people will choose not to take the appropriate precautions. They won't see their doctors first. They won't have the necessary bloodwork done before and during the diet. They will choose not to consume enough water, fat, or vegetables. However, all of these are consequences of following the plan incorrectly. The diet should not be condemned based on people following the plan incorrectly because of failure or refusal to read the book and follow the specific instructions.
I should say as a person restricting carbs, but not following Atkins, I do have one major bone to pick with the diet. I personally think induction is too low in carbs, and it should be mandatory, not optional to abandon induction after 2 weeks. Most people do abandon induction after 2 weeks, because it is boring or they are having headaches and other low blood sugar symptoms.
I agree that not all diets ARE created equally. And that Atkins can even be dangerous to some people (especially if they DON'T have the appropriate bloodwork done at the beginning and throughout the diet) and to people otherwise not following the diet as it is written.
However, I find that a far different argument that low-carb is dangerous for all people, and all people should avoid it. The research does not support that. In not one, but several JAMA articles and even the 2003 review of the literature, the conclusion was that the diet could neither be recommended nor advised against. Results seem, at best, to be mixed. And while that a far cry from a ringing endorsement, neither is it a harsh condemnation.
As for avoiding all things that could be dangerous (especially if done incorrectly), that isn't necessarily a logical conclusion either. There are ads on tv for a prescription medication for psoriasis, and the side effects listed are horrendous. And I wondered, why on earth would anyone take medication that was so dangerous for a SKIN CONDITION, but then I remembered a girl in college who had terrible psoriasis, and she was nearly suicidal over her "hideous" appearance. When it flared, she barely looked human. I can see why she might decide the risks are worth it, and that should be HER decision to make. Sometimes quality of life, takes precedence over quantity of life.
That alone may be reason for some people to choose even a potentially dangerous diet without fully exploring the risks. That many people will not taking the risks into consideration, is quite sad. I love my life, even at 343 lbs or more. It's why I have chosen NOT to undergo WLS. I WEIGHED the risks. I have autoimmune disease, so the lap band isn't appropriate, and I am very prone to staph infection (once you get a bad one, this is often true).
When I chose low carb, I did much the same. Although as it turns out, I may have actually overestimated the actual risk. I had assumed that what I read about Atkins raising cholesterol and thus cardiac risk, was definitely true. I decided, with my doctor, that we would evaluate the risk as I proceeded with the diet. When my cholesterol and blood pressure went down, that was the green light to continue. If it had gone up, I probably would have decided to modify the diet (reduce animal fats and proteins) and if it went up again at the next appointment, I would have probably abandoned the diet.
No different than evaluating the results of a prescription medication. Most have the POTENTIAL to be dangerous and even deadly, but patients weigh the risks against the benefits to make their decision.
That's all that most of us on low-carbs are advocating. Weigh the risks. If you want to lose 5 lbs, Atkins is more than just a little extreme. If you're on dialysis, following the diet would be insane (which reading the book, you would discover).
I don't believe that I or any of the other low-carbers on this thread have argued otherwise. We're not arguing that any of the research proves that Atkins is necessarily safe, especially for everyone. Rather, like many medical treatment or medication, we're suggesting the risks must be weighed against the possible benefits. Being reasonably informed, a person can make a reasonable decision, and sometimes that IS carbohydrate restriction.
If you are morbidly obese (especially super morbidly obese as I was at nearly 400 lbs) and nothing else has worked; if you find yourself unable to control your eating and suspect carbohydrates trigger binges; if you have PCOS, Insulin Resistance, type II diabetes, hypothyroid, or are on prednisone or other steroids then considering and discussing a carbohydrate restricted diet with your doctor not crazy.
If all of the low-carbers were advocating the diet to EVERYONE, I would agree with the "stepford wife" or "brain-washed" analogy. However that is not the case. It is the attitude that low-carb is NEVER a reasonable option for ANYONE, that is the extreme position here.
There will always be some people who make decisions based on little or inaccurate information. Some will accidentally make good choices and others not so much. But saying that carb restriction is never a reasonable choice, I believe is rather short sighted, and not supported by the research.
And can't believe there are Atkins adherants who claim never to have heard of the various fatalities associated with it? (As I said before not just the heart stuff you'd expect but as kidney disease and other problems).
PhatPhoenix, I have to admit I'm much more familiar with the literature on the effect of low carb diets on heart and kidney function, but not on mortality. Although I don't know enough to comment specifically, it's not surprising. Consuming foods high in saturated fat is known to impact blood flow to the arteries, and single high-fat meals can significantly narrow the arteries and increase the risk of heart attack and stroke.
Consuming foods high in saturated fat is known to impact blood flow to the arteries, and single high-fat meals can significantly narrow the arteries and increase the risk of heart attack and stroke.
Just wanted to interject this distinction...saturated animal fats have been shown to do these things, by and large. *Animal* fats which also contain cholesterol.
I have severe PCOS - was diagnosed 20 years ago - and would have to say one of the things that most concerns me is this type of diet being advocated to women with PCOS. I think we're almost precisely the last people who can afford to take a punt on this working for us as our metabolisms are compromised to start off with - you can have PCOS, insulin reistance and all the rest of it and lose weight in a healthy manner - it's just much slower, is all. There are studies to suggest weight loss for us will be 2-3 times slower than for a woman without PCOS, so maybe doing something drastic might mimic the 2lb a week or so weight loss most women can achieve with comparatively little effort. Doing it the healthy way is way slower than most women with our condition would like which makes fad diets look more tempting. But you already have a body that can't cope with toxins, chemicals etc, quite as well as other women's bodies can. I've read accounts by other cysters who have shot their metabolisms by doing fad diets - including Atkins.
Hmmmm . . . just a few things to add to this fascinating Thread if I may?
ok, good - TX!
*I Post in any and all Threads that interest me. Sometimes when I have the "wide-awakes," that come from working nite shifts, I surf thru "New Posts" to actually welcome and be supportive of chicks coming here. I've also Posted in Threads that have Topics I have personal experience with . . . like this one.
*Atkins is the ONLY plan out of the hundred or so I've tried that reigns in my tendency to overeat. The only thing it KILLS is my cravings. Even at this ginormous weight my total cholesterol is plummeting - along with my triglyceride # - all while my "good" #'s sky rocket - blood sugar - blood pressure etc are all fabulous - especially for someone my size.
*I've had the most weight loss success with Atkins - but yes, I've always gained the weight back and then some when I went "off the diet" . . . why? Well, I think its because the entire mindset of "dieting" sets us up for failure. I also caved to the "Low Fat" pressure and tried that wol each time I got to my normal weight.
Bad idea for me.
Triggered cravings . . . enormous can't be filled appetite . . . weight gain etc.
*I think the crabbiest I ever have been in my life was when I tried to eat low fat and yes, I was hateful to friends who were on high fat/high protein - "Oh I used to "do Atkins" - it'll kill ya!" type comments I remember making make me ashamed to this very day!
Looking back, I think it was because I was just so dayum HUNGRY and oh so JEALOUS!
Thankful that I've listened to my body and paid attention to my own wonderful lab/testing results - I'm happy to report that the brainwashing by the ADA (which I am a former member of) and the pharmaceutical regime that controls our healthcare system here in the US have been permanently deprogrammed from my psyche!
It IS a challenge for me, an emotional eater to begin with, to follow Atkins in this processed carb hectic society we live in . . . takes a lot of planning not to fall back into bad habits . . . I'm a work in progress, but feeling GREAT!.
I completely concur that very low calorie diets lower metabolism. To a very large degree, I dieted my way to 400 lbs. Of all the diets I attempted since kindergarten, a tiny minority were low-carb. I can really think of only three, Protein Power, Atkins, and the Mayo Clinic Diet (that it comes from the Mayo Clinic is an urban legend. It was a one page diet passed around from person to person and the myths about Atkins reflect this diet more than Atkins does. Eggs, bacon and grapefruit for breakfast, huge amounts of meat and no vegetables except lettuce for lunch and dinner).
Often lower carb diets can be higher in calorie than a comparable low-fat diet, so it might actually be less metabolism crashing than other diets (that is if a person isn't severely restricting calories, which is known to be a bad idea with low carb).
When I was younger I could lose weight quickly, but with each diet (low fat or low carb, didn't matter) I lost more slowly. But it was the carbohydrates triggering the ungodly hunger that kept me from staying on any diet. Even on a carb restricted diet I am losing slowly, so it isn't that I've resorted to it out of impatience. Unless you consider less than one pound a month impatient. To lose weight (and I'm talking about that one pound a month, not two pounds a week) on a high carbohydrate diet, I have to restrict my calories to ridiculous levels. On 1100 - 1500 low fat calories, I am crabby, shaky, and very, very, very HUNGRY. Even on 1800 low fat calories, the weight doesn't budge. Physics should prevent this from being true, but I think what makes it possible is that I experience bone-crushing fatigue (I have fibromyalgia) and end up sleeping 30% or more longer than usual. Up to 16 hours a day. It's not normal, but it's what happens to me. It's as though the more I cut calories, the more my body shuts down. I almost go into hibernation.
Again though, I was not arguing that everyone with insulin resistance or the other health issues I mentioned should follow Atkins. Nor that any should follow Atkins without consultation AND medical supervision. But I think that is true of any drastic change in your eating, especially if you don't have much of a background (educationally or self-taught) in nutrition.
I think there is still far too much of the mentality that there is one, and only one optimally healthy fat/carbs/protein proportion. I think the range is broader and individualized than that. When I read Neanderthin or possibly The Paleolithic prescription (both basing their premise on eating as the anthropological evidence indicates our hunting and gathering ancestors did before the invention of agriculture), I first became interested in the possibility that the healthy range of fat/carb/protein was actually much larger than I'd guessed. The book heavily cites research, though going to the research directly some is more persuasive than others (although true of anyone proporting a theory). Generally though I found it much more responsible in its quoting and interpreting the research as many such books. But basically much of the research was regarding aboriginal peoples, from the inuit (eskimo) who eat a primarily carnivorous diet with relatively few vegetables (though the veggies and berries they eat are nutritional powerhouses) to japanese fishing villages and hunter gathering societies. The amount of fat, carbs, and proteins varied tremendously, but heart disease was nearly non-existent in these aboriginal people. The common denominators in these societies were exercise, and minimal grain (especially low protein/low fiber and refined grain) consumption.
If there is an optimal diet, it has not been discovered yet. The food pyramid with grains at it's base, I believe is flawed. As aparently finally does the FDA -- as the "new" pyramid puts produce at the bottom. There still is a lot of debate whether protein and dairy should come before or after grains, and maybe that's because the answer might be "it depends."
And again still feel no-one has addressed this, in this thread. Why follow a diet with any deaths associated with it? Even one? Are you literally dying to be thin? I know I'm not!
I think there are MANY deaths associated with the FDA's recommended diet of one dominated by grains. Why have heart-disease, cancers, and strokes increased in the last 50 years? Why have obesity rates climbed? Why are more and more people diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes? Could it possibly be because a low-fat, high-carb diet is not as healthy as you propose?
There is an interesting book on the market, "The Modern Nutritional Diseases: And How to Prevent Them : Heart Disease, Stroke, Type-2 Diabetes, Obesity, Cancer" by Alice and Fred Ottoboni, whose premise is that the heart-healthy diet we have been led to believe is not all that healthy after all.
Oh, bless your heart - but I fear that the viewpoints are too polarised here for your remarks to make much impact. Captain Logic is not so much steering the tugboat.
Quote:
I think there are MANY deaths associated with the FDA's recommended diet of one dominated by grains. Why have heart-disease, cancers, and strokes increased in the last 50 years? Why have obesity rates climbed? Why are more and more people diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes? Could it possibly be because a low-fat, high-carb diet is not as healthy as you propose?
See, I'm very much of your opinion on this - and indeed I've already provided a heap of links (and quotations, if following said links seems like too much effort) pointing out precisely this proposition.
But I'm afraid that you're banging your head against a brick wall here, mate. Thanks for the book suggestion, though - it does sound interesting. I'll keep a look out in my local bookshop.
Last edited by broadabroad; 07-05-2008 at 11:09 AM.
I think there are MANY deaths associated with the FDA's recommended diet of one dominated by grains. Why have heart-disease, cancers, and strokes increased in the last 50 years? Why have obesity rates climbed? Why are more and more people diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes? Could it possibly be because a low-fat, high-carb diet is not as healthy as you propose?
The FDA's recommended diet can not be blamed for the high rates of heart disease and cancer in the United States because Americans don't follow the FDA's guidelines. They don't eat a diet based on whole grains, produce, fish, and healthy fats. The closest thing to a vegetable many Americans eat is a french fry. Unfortunately, the Atkins folks choose not to acknowledge that.
I think far too many of the posts here have completely ignored what many of the low-carbers have said, and are responding to things they "think" are being said or worse, things they think are believed (without evidence).
I don't know how to respond to arguments I haven't made, so I'm not going to try, but for the record:
I do not believe there is any "proof" that Atkins or other low-carb diets are safe.
Carb-restriction is the only method I have EVER found to be effective for me. It took me 36 years to seriously attempting this method (mostly out of fear of the "risks" I believed the method to be associated with. Ironically, reviewing the research is leading me to believe that my fears were not justified).
The risks of being 250 lbs overweight, in my estimation, were higher than the risk to my trying low-carb. However, what did it take to persuade me to try it? TWO doctors, recommending it. One of which lost 100 lbs HERSELF and both of the doctors quoting research indicating that low carb probably was not to be as dangerous as once assumed.
That my health indicators are moving in the right direction, indicates to me that this is true. Either my bloodwork is coincidentally getting better, or the low carb diet isn't more harmful than being this much overweight.
In following up on the newer low-carb research, I would still (despite my experience) not conclude that low-carb dieting has been proven safe, especially for EVERYONE. (Though I've come to suspect that high-carb may also not be "safe" for everyone - this is a "wondering" not a statement of what I believe to be fact).
The thing is, I didn't see ANYONE suggesting that there is "proof" that low-carb is safe, particularly for anyone. Certainly, I would not recommend (nor do I believe anyone else has) that anyone change their dietary habits (in any particular direction, but especially to low carb) if what they ARE doing is working for them (and by that I mean, not just losing weight if they wish to, but their health indicators showing improvements).
It may VERY WELL be possible, that low(er)-carb is ONLY appropriate for a small percentage of people. But I do feel very confident that it is appropriate for me, as I am doing it (tons of fresh low-starch veggies and sprouts, leaner meats, and healthy fats, and just as much starch carbs as allows me to lose weight slowly). If my bloodwork were to take a negative turn, I would have to re-evaluate my diet, and make accomodations as necessary, but when the alternative for me (based on 36 years of searching) is stay super, morbidly obese with my bloodwork worsening every time I see my doctor - or follow a low-carb diet in which my bloodwork is improving at each visit.
