I never really went regularly, in the summers I would attend catholic summer school and when I was older I would volunteer to help the kids there as well, never baptised....
I did enjoy it but I did notice some of what everyone was saying hyppocrites and such, I just chalk it up to people are people and only god can judge...
I later converted to Islam about 3 years ago and it is not required to go to the mosque except for the men...
I still go on holidays and I feel closer to god more than ever...
Religion is just a personal choice, what fits, fits, I don't think of any religion as better, all those that worship one god, worship the same for me, and I even feel those that don't in some way get to the same being.....
I don't think EZ was being rude, but EZ, I will say that what you said reminded me of my mother. And...it's part of why I DON'T go to church. I'll explain what it was you said, but just remember, you want to bring people to church, not push them away, right?
That in mind, you said: "For those of you that do not attend a Christian church ~ those of us that do will pray for you!"
That comes across as if you feel I need praying for. I'm religious. I believe in the Bible, believe in God, feel myself to be a Christian. I'm just not yours, or my mother's, brand of Christian. I don't feel I need to go to church to be a Christian. I feel a church is good to network with other people, that it helps to keep your faith strong if it's wavering, that it provides you with an extended family of sorts. But I don't feel it's a necessity for being a Christian. Jesus said "who ever believeth in me shall not perish". He did not say "who ever attends a man-made religious ceremony that practices one distinct faith shall not perish."
I have no use for hypocrites to keep my faith from wavering. They actually cause my faith to waver. So a church can be detrimental in that sense. I have no use to attend a church that does not believe as I do and attempts to "fix" me. I do not need fixing. And there are no religions that believe as I do. I believe based on what I have read of the Bible, and what I feel. And I feel that's how every religion should be. Focused on believing in and serving God, but not on their "practices", which may not be what all of their members subscribe to.
My mother's church believes in speaking in tongues, rolling in the aisles, women in dresses only and always, no jewelry, no make-up, no worldly things (ie: concerts, movies, mixed bathing: read swimming with the opposite sex). Perhaps that is why I find their church to be distasteful. They have turned everything into a sin. My mother is free to feel all of that to be a sin. But her need to "pray for me" for not feeling that way irks me.
FITGAL~~ WOW~WOW there buckaroo ~~ I don't know where you got the idea that I was trying to force my beliefs on you. Far from it, all I intended to impress upon you is how "I" feel ~ that is all.
I never said I didn't accept other people's religions...here again not sure where you think you saw that in my post. I totally accept them...and I understand that not everyone will die a Christian, the Bible is quite clear on that. There are a lot of things that I accept in life but don't agree with.
I never said "My way is the only way"...again you are putting words in my mouth. Every religion has "their way"...I know where mine leads me.
As far as praying for you, my religion asks me to pray for un-believers of the Christian faith...do you not feel that any person should honor what their religion tells them?
If you feel that praying for you is harmful please let me know.
VEGGIELOVER~ Thank-you for realizing I was not being rude. I am not quite sure what you mean by the true religion statement ~ I totally believe that all the religions out there are for real ~ I just know that my beliefs are much better for ME than the beliefs of the other religions ~~ I am not putting them down at all ~~ FREE WILL is the most wonderul thing we were givin by God ~~ you are free to choose any religion you want ~~ the only difference is the outcome of the choice. Seriously, wouldn't you feel that any religion YOU belonged to would be the one that YOU would encourage others to join? I will try to answer ANY questions that you may have...and if I can't answer them I will search until I can....feel free to PM me anytime.
WEIGH TO GO~~ Love your thinking....maybe if you feel your time is being wasted in church...maybe...just maybe...God is tugging at you to help make a change in the congregation to get things going in the right direction. Church shouldn't be a burden ~ it is a WONDERFUL OPPORTUNITY we have in AMERICA!!
1 DAY AT A TIME~ Love the "nothing going on" humor OK..so being a preachers kid YOU know that if you give just 10% of your time that you will actually have ALL the time in the world you need to shop, sleep, clean, etc.
LILYBELLE~ My goodness girl! Where do you go to church? My church has 1 stewardship sermon a year where they explain the tithe...we take an offering every week but it is always freewill..in 22 years NO ONE has ever asked me for a NICKLE! in my church...
SAFIYAH-IS-FLUFFYI appreciate you sharing your opinion ~ isn't it nice that you can do that in a country where Islam is not the norm ~ Too bad you can't share your opinion of another rreligion in countries where Islam is the norm. I do know that we do not all worship the same God ~ my God sent His son to die for us and take our sins so that we may have eternal life ~ is that the same god you have? Not being rude ~ just asking a question.
ALMOSTHEAVEN~ Not sure how one can be "pushed" away by being prayed for. You may pray for me anytime you wish ~ the Father I believe in will do His will. There is no such thing as "brand" of Christian...you either are ONE or you are NOT ONE. I can relate to your "itch" of people bugging you about religion...they come to my door all the time pestering me. I NEVER said going to church was necessary to be a Christian...I said I would pray for those that don't attend a Christian church because I know that is one of the best ways God has to get us His Word. Maybe, since you feel your faith is so strong, God is calling you to sit with the hypocrites and reach out to them. I don't want to bash your mother but it seems from what you say that she is still "stuck" in the old testament ~ Jesus came to end the LAW ~ In my church I wear shorts when it is hot, my wife wears jewelry and make-up ~ we go to honor our Savior...not to earn salvation by the way we dress. I will pray that the truth you are seeking finds you ~~ I hope that doesn't irk you!
I understand fitgal and veggielover's point, and have always believed so myself, but I am starting to believe I might be wrong.
My husband and I are currently going to New Member classes in a Missouri synod Lutheran church (I was raised Catholic), and on Saturday we were discussing the "all religions are the same" theory and the "need" for church attendance and participation. I'm a non-participant by inclination, but I guess I've realized that prayer and participation in church services and church projects are like other more mundane tasks like eating. I can choose to eat alone, and the food will still nourish my body, but it's a much richer experience when I share a meal with others.
I don't worry much about hypocrites, because in many ways, we all are. We all have higher goals and expectations for ourselves and others than we are able to accomplish. As they say, church is a hospital for sinners, not a museum for saints. It is easy for me to look at some people's messed up lives, and accuse them of being hypocrites, it's much harder (though more "Christian") to assume they might be doing the best that they can (or maybe at least doing better than they would without the influence of the church).
As for the equality of religions, I have no proof that Christianity is "better" or even more "true" than any other religion. However, if you believe that one religion is as good as another, and that none or all are "true," how can you believe in anything? And if you believe that your religion is the best, and truest (and if you don't what is the point) why would you not encourage others to be a part of it?
How could you not feel bad for people who don't have what you have?
To some degree being devout in any religion, involves the assumption that those with other beliefs are misinformed. You either believe in reincarnation happens or you don't. You either believe that Christ died for our sins, or you don't. You either believe abortion is murder or you don't ...
We live in a culture that says there is no absolute right and wrong. It's all relative, it's all valid, and we should embrace (not just accept) the ideas of people who have a different moral code/religion/values... than our own.
But what good does a moral code/religion/value system hold, if there is no conviction behind it, if we must assume that it's all arbitrary anyway. And what would happen if we all started to truly believe that. Laws reflect our moral beliefs, and the law has little effect on our behavior when we don't believe in the moral rule behind the law (you may exceed the speed limit, though it is against the law. The reason you don't kill and eat your neighbor has very little to do with the fact that there are laws against it).
If you have any religious beliefs, complete "tolerance" of other beliefs is imposible, as it would require "tolerance" of beliefs and pracitices you would find immoral (an extreme example might be human-sacrifice).
I don't have any answers, just questions, which is why I always beat a post to death. I over-analyze everthing because I see all the related issues. It's also why I don't think I'll ever be a "good" Christian, because I have a "doubting-Thomas" personality. I may be doomed to be the hypocrite, because I want to know and understand everything, and faith requires belief in what cannot be understood. I admire people with strong faiths, because mine waxes and wanes, depending on what "seems" true to me at the time. I guess I don't believe that's the way it is supposed to be.
I actually wrote a big post earlier, but I ended up never submitting it for fear that I would be stepping on too many spiritual toes. I'll make it no secret that I don't believe in God or Christ or reincarnation or Buddha or whatever other orgnized religions are out there that I haven't even heard of. In going into any deail, I've found that by merely explaining why I don't believe, I sounded offensive to those who do. Likewise, some who do believe sound offensive to those of us who don't.
This whole thread just further reinforces my belief that a world without religion would be a much happier, more peaceful place. I mean, imagine how many wars would never have been fought? Imagine how many people woul dhave been relieved of religious persecution? Imagine how much more time and energy we could all devote to being GOOD PEOPLE regardless of WHY we would do so? I am a good person. I partake in charity events. I have been known to volunteer for good causes and to donate either money or materials or services when I can. And I do it all in the name of HUMANITY, not God or anyone else.
I know it's (unfortunately) way too late to delete religion from the world, but one can dream, right? One can dream of a world where elementary school science textbooks are not a topic of debate for discussing evolution and not Adam and Eve. One can dream of a world where people are good for the sake of goodness rather than for fear of **** or damnation or what have you. One can dream of a world where scientifically proven theories are accepted as fact rather than debated based upon a fictional collection of stories written/collected thousands of years ago.
Christianity is the (group of) religion(s) with which I am most familiar since I was raised as a Catholic when I was younger. Perhaps it is because I know so much about it that I take so many issues with it
Gary (and anyone else), I'm a non-believer. Please don't ever pray for me. I find it offensive that anyone feel the need to pray for me for following MY OWN HEART instead of following the beliefs of the masses in my area.
And so I wonder--is the real question posed by this thread, "Why do so few people attend church today?" or is it really, "Why do so few have faith today?" The two go hand-in-hand, and even though some people may consider themselves to be of a certain religion because they were raised as such, they may not truly believe and, therefore, do not attend church. I know that is the case with many people I know--if you ask them their religion, they will reply (Catholic, Episcopalian, Lutheran, Baptist, and so on), but only because that's how they were raised, not necessarily because that's what they believe. So, I guess I believe fewer people attend church because fewer people really choose to believe.
Oh yes, EZmoney, I understand that completely but I also understand that God provided for me and my children during a very difficult time even though He didn't provide it Monday-Friday, 9-5 and I was and am still humbly thankful for that.
COLLEEN~ I am glad to see you are attending a new member class at a Missouri Synod Lutheran Church...NOW go next door to Bloomington and pick up my mom, grandma, sister, bil and uncle and invite them along .
I like where you are headed ~ being a doubting Thomas is a wonderful thing ~ it keeps you searching and learning.
Don't be with being a "good" christian and a "bad" christian ~ You either ARE a Christian or you ARE NOT one ~~
Most religions tell you to good things from what I have gathered ~~
The difference with Christianity is what GOD DID FOR US!
All Christians do and things. we are called by Christ though to live our lives Christ~like which should be helping us to focus on only.
1dayatatime~ HE was there 9-5 you just didn't see it
JILLYBEAN~ You know I MESS with you any chance I get. I see you have put a lot of thoughts in your beliefs ~ in total seriousness I have a couple of questions ~ Don't you think a world like that would be "STEPFORD WIVE-ish?" and if you don't believe in a god ~ creator ~ big kahuna ~ etc ~ just who would set the rules?
JILLYBEAN~ You know I MESS with you any chance I get. I see you have put a lot of thoughts in your beliefs ~ in total seriousness I have a couple of questions ~ Don't you think a world like that would be "STEPFORD WIVE-ish?" and if you don't believe in a god ~ creator ~ big kahuna ~ etc ~ just who would set the rules?
Heck no! I don't believe in God, and I am FAR from a Stepford wife Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't know right from wrong--things that hurt people = bad Quite the opposite--I think it would make people think MORE about WHY they do things. Rather than not commiting adultery (or any other crime--just an example) simply because God says it's wrong, maybe people would realize that it's wrong BECAUSE it hurts someone and/or because there may be immediate consequences. Religion shouldn't "set the rules"--we have governments and law enforcement for that. If that's why you follow a particular religion, I believe you are lost. I think it should be far more meaningful than that, and people should be able to think for themselves rather than just do things because the Big Kahuna says so
This whole thread just further reinforces my belief that a world without religion would be a much happier, more peaceful place. I mean, imagine how many wars would never have been fought? Imagine how many people woul dhave been relieved of religious persecution? Imagine how much more time and energy we could all devote to being GOOD PEOPLE regardless of WHY we would do so? I am a good person. I partake in charity events. I have been known to volunteer for good causes and to donate either money or materials or services when I can. And I do it all in the name of HUMANITY, not God or anyone else
You know, doens't every religion have a version of "LOVE THY NEIGHBOUR AS THY SELF"???? so exactly why have wars started over religion if every religion believes that??? that is my problem with religion, there are just way too many contradictions!
And further, if people are "doing good things to get into heaven" then doesn't that defeat the purpose? Doesn't that in and of itself go against what the "creator" is saying?? I agree with Jillybean, can't we just do GOOD THINGS for the sake of DOING GOOD THINGS???
If you have any religious beliefs, complete "tolerance" of other beliefs is imposible, as it would require "tolerance" of beliefs and pracitices you would find immoral (an extreme example might be human-sacrifice).
I definately disagree with this. Sorry. My husband and I don't really believe in god. We are learning about Buddhism. It is not really a religion. They believe in a life without suffering. The reason for the Buddha statues are to remind them of the path to eternal peace. Not to worsh him. One thing we've learned is that all religions are basically the same. They teach you to be a good person. We all follow the basic elements like not harming other people. The Daili Lama says that all religions are good because of this fact. So Buddhism does "tolerate" other beliefs no matter what they practice.
Having said that, I think this discussion is getting a little heated. I agree with Jillybean's whole post. I feel the same way. I don't have a religion. But I do believe in being good, honest, moral, conciderate, and friendly. I believe in the basic things all religions teach. That is why Buddhism looks so good to me. I know with them, I can take from it what I need. I don't need to become a cult follower to be accepted by them.
I've had many bad experiences with organized religion. That goes for many different Christian groups including Catholics. I just don't understand having to live a certain way to meet the criteria of a certain group. I don't believe in heaven, but I also don't think God would send anyone to **** for not showing up at a building at a certain time of day. I don't remember one commandment saying thou shalt go to church every Sunday morning. No he didn't, and I would think as long as you follow HIS word (not those who speak for him) as those commandments then you would be a good person that would go to heaven.
I'm more into the science of the world and the universe to actually believe in God. I need proof and facts to live by, not some stories created over 2000 years ago by some people who say they know what's going on. Sorry, but I'm just not buying into it.
No one on this thread or on this board is better than another person. We all have different opinions and different beliefs. But what we DO have in common is our basic foundation for being a good person. That is why we choose not to murder our neighbor. That is why we choose not to take that loaf of bread from the grocery store without paying for it. That is why we choose not to sleep with someone else instead of our spouse. We all have those same basic beliefs and that is what is really important here.
If you feel the need to pray for someone, then please do so for my father who needs a kidney transplant.
Thanks for listening.
ALMOSTHEAVEN~ Not sure how one can be "pushed" away by being prayed for.
That wasn't what I was saying. The pushing away comes from being too overzealous, by "hammering" one's beliefs to the point that you make another sick of hearing it. Like when my mother would constantly needle me to go to church...to the point of nearly whining. Like how she would tell me I would go to **** and talk about what I "should" or "should not" do in mom's world view.
The "being prayed for" I said "irked" me. And that it is because it is like stating one feels I "need" praying for. Because they obviously feel my thoughts on Christianity are inferior to theirs and so therefore they need to pray for me to get up to their level of Christianity.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jillybean720
This whole thread just further reinforces my belief that a world without religion would be a much happier, more peaceful place. I mean, imagine how many wars would never have been fought? Imagine how many people woul dhave been relieved of religious persecution?
People would find things to fight about regardless of religion. It's human nature.
I'm more into the science of the world and the universe to actually believe in God. I need proof and facts to live by, not some stories created over 2000 years ago by some people who say they know what's going on. Sorry, but I'm just not buying into it.
I completely agree--nicely stated
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChefBran
If you feel the need to pray for someone, then please do so for my father who needs a kidney transplant.
And to think there are religions who are AGAINST such things as organ transplantation! I can't even imagine--my brother-in-law is actually an organ transplant coordinator in Virginia, so I have seen first-hand the number of lives saved and the strengthand kindness required of the donor families. I hope they find a suitable kidney for him soon
Quote:
Originally Posted by almostheaven
People would find things to fight about regardless of religion. It's human nature.
Oh, I know, but maybe it would be something more worthwhile (not that I think war is ever really worthwhile). Even back in the day when battles were over things as simple as country borders, at least that made SENSE! But fighting over which religion to believe? I just don't get it...
But fighting over which religion to believe? I just don't get it...
I do. It's like the bully waiting outside the school who wants to fight over whether or not you can take that route home because that's his sidewalk. It's a macho thing. Ok, so now we can blame all fighting on men. LOL JK
I'm a spiritual "mutt" if you will. I'm a mix of Catholic, Presbyterian, Methodist, several flavors of Baptist, and all three flavors of Christian Church. I studied music and theology at seminary for two years, and was married to a very spiritual man for sixteen years. In the last 10 years of our marriage, we attended a small church that was very much like a family. When I decided to end my marriage, that "family" turned its back on me. I never received a single phone call from anyone in the church. They all rallied around my ex. What they failed to see is that I was obviously hurting too (I didn't want to end the marriage, but I knew I could not go on with the way things were). When I wrote an e-mail to my pastor at the time, saying how hurt I was that he never even called to check on me or anything, he wrote me back saying that doing that would show support of my decision to divorce my ex, and he could not do that. How messed up is that?
In the past two years, I have only been in a church once (for a wedding). I do miss the fellowship part of attending a community of people with similar beliefs, but I doubt at this point I will ever become a regular attender again.
My boyfriend is not religious at all. He is more like Brandi ( the poster here). If he "believes" in anything, it is in science and nature. While we disagree on basic beliefs, we do share the same moral code, the "do unto others" thing.
A person's spiritual journey is very personal and individual. No one can walk that road for anyone else, nor can they force someone to go down a path they do not want to go. To criticize someone else's journey because they are not on the same path as you is just plain wrong, IMO.
Me personally--God is my Higer Power. I rely on my daily strength from Him.
OK..so being a preachers kid YOU know that if you give just 10% of your time that you will actually have ALL the time in the world you need to shop, sleep, clean, etc. 
with being a "good" 
christian and a "bad" 
christian ~ You either ARE a Christian or you ARE NOT one ~~ 
Just because I don't believe in God doesn't mean I don't know right from wrong--things that hurt people = bad 
Quite the opposite--I think it would make people think MORE about WHY they do things. Rather than not commiting adultery (or any other crime--just an example) simply because God says it's wrong, maybe people would realize that it's wrong BECAUSE it hurts someone and/or because there may be immediate consequences. Religion shouldn't "set the rules"--we have governments and law enforcement for that. If that's why you follow a particular religion, I believe you are lost. I think it should be far more meaningful than that, and people should be able to think for themselves rather than just do things because the Big Kahuna says so 
Sorry. My husband and I don't really believe in god. We are learning about Buddhism. It is not really a religion. They believe in a life without suffering. The reason for the Buddha statues are to remind them of the path to eternal peace. Not to worsh him. One thing we've learned is that all religions are basically the same. They teach you to be a good person. We all follow the basic elements like not harming other people. The Daili Lama says that all religions are good because of this fact. So Buddhism does "tolerate" other beliefs no matter what they practice.
