Gary, interesting question on salvation, and something that I have struggled, struggled, struggled with for years. I was raised in the Episcopal church and my husband is Catholic, so both of us were baptized as infants, and agree with that practice. However, when I think about "salvation", I echo Beth's thoughts about those who weren't exposed to Christianity - unborn babies, people who live in remote areas, those who never interacted with the Christian community through no choice of their own. I hate to believe that God wouldn't include them in his kingdom, but then again I can't really know. Then what about the people who live pretty questionable lives, to accept Christ at the eleventh hour? Or those who are baptized and profess a commitment to Christ but then go on to do abhorrent deeds? I can't even begin to think about how I would answer the question other than to say that it still perplexes me. :dunno:

OK, Christian Encouragers, I have something big to tell you...

I got into Duke Law School!!! :dance: :dancer: :cb: :carrot: :cheer: :hat:

I have been incredibly grateful for my acceptances so far, but Duke is the school I've had my eye on since I decided to attend law school, and it's the one I was thinking of as I did my five gruelling months of studying for the LSAT and hours and hours of banging my head against the wall :stress: trying to write my personal statements! I am SO excited about this news!!! It feels like a huge weight off my shoulders knowing I can go to this school if I want to. :D DH and I are going to party hearty tonight and I may even be wicked :devil: and eat a few big slices of :jeno:. Hehehehe. I just want to thank all of you who have been thinking about me, cheering me on, and praying for me as I've been going through all this school (and LIFE) stress. Your support means so much to me!

Have a great evening!

:grouphug:

Hi!
 

Beth- Thanks!
Christina- congrats! on your acceptance, how exciting, you deserve a little party and chance to relax now.
E.Z.- Good question you pose so many opinions. Lots of people get very upset over this issue. I do not want to offend anyone. But I am an independent fundamental Baptist. I believe to be baptised, you must already have stated that you believe, that Christ under went severe punishment for our sins, then died on the cross, was laid in a tomb and arose 3 days later, and ascended to the be with the Father. Most Christian have no problem with this. Then you get to baptism. Baptism was always full immursion in a Lake, or stream, or as close as they could get to that. Because it symbolized the death and resurrection of Christ. Because you were burried in sin and arose in New birth. This was done only when you were able to state you believed and wanted to follow Christ. It was during the rein of Constantanople that they changed to sprinkling ect. and baptising babies. Now it is customary and widely accepted by many churches. But not by Baptists. We stay very fundamental with the bible. I believe babies are saved if they die before the age of consent when they are capable of understanding. When David's son with Bathsheba was taken for David's sin, He said He would see him in heaven. There are lots of verses to back this up. However Baptism does not save you. I believe when you accept Christ you, you are Baptised with the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation. (Acts. 2:2) I also believe Baptism can not be private but must be public. (Acts 2:41) As was done in a group normally. It is a picture of being buried and then resurrected, as Christ was, it is a public statement of belief. I belief that you can be saved taking your last breath being the most vile person on earth. If you repent and accept and belief that Christ suffered died and arose and is in power today. I site the thieves on each side of Christ. Christ said to the one that repented you will wake up in paradise. He had no time to be baptised. As the song goes Jesus paid it all, all to Him we owe, He left the crimson stain that washed us white as snow.
Look at Paul and how many people he killed, I am sure he is in paradise.
Wilma- Ditto!
Sprout- I agree Amen!
Sapphireangel- Welcome!
I did well today, that will power dust is amazing thanks guys. See ya

Baptism
 

HI GALS~:wave:

Again ~ tonight ~ not much time to visit. A lot going on around here with family ~ all good. I have read all the posts and am so happy to get the responses! One thing is for sure~~~~ we disagree somewhat on baptism ~~ however ~~ WE ARE ALL IN AGREEMENT THAT JESUS DIED FOR US! I too agree with you that NONE OF US WANT TO OFFEND ANYBODY~~ ISN'T THAT WHY WE ARE HERE GALS? A PLACE WHERE WE CAN COME AND GET SUPPORT FOR WHATEVER THE NEED IS? YOU BET IT IS!!:yes:

From the Lutheran perspective we do believe in infant baptism.

Why Baptize Infants?
Q. Why do Lutherans baptize infants?

A. Lutherans baptize infants because of what the Bible teaches regarding:

1.) God's command to baptize (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). There is not a single passage in Scripture which instructs us not to baptize for reasons of age, race, or gender. On the contrary, the divine commands to baptize in Scripture are all universal in nature. On the basis of these commands, the Christian church has baptized infants from the earliest days of its history. Since those baptized are also to be instructed in the Christian faith, (Matt. 28:20), the church baptizes infants only where there is the assurance that parents or spiritual guardians will nurture the faith of the one baptized through continued teaching of God's Word.

2.) Our need for baptism (Psalm 51; 5; John 3:5-7; Acts 2:38; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:3-4). According to the Bible, all people--including infants--are sinful and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). King David confesses, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). Like adults, infants die--sure proof that they too are under the curse of sin and death. According to the Bible, baptism (somewhat like Old Testament circumcision, administered to 8-day-old-babies--see Col. 2:11-12) is God's gracious way of washing away our sins--even the sins of infants--without any help or cooperation on our part. It is a wonderful gift of a loving and gracious God.

3.) God's promises and power (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6; Galatians 3:26-27; Romans 6:1-4; Colossians 2;11-12; Ephesians 5:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those churches which deny baptism to infants usually do so because they have a wrong understanding of baptism. They see baptism as something we do (e.g., a public profession of faith, etc.) rather than seeing it as something that God does for us and in us. None of the passages listed above, nor any passage in Scripture, describes baptism as "our work" or as "our public confession of faith." Instead, these passages describe baptism as a gracious and powerful work of God through which He miraculously (though through very "ordinary" means) washes away our sins by applying to us the benefits of Christ's death and resurrection (Acts 2:38:39; Acts 22:16), gives us a new birth in which we "cooperate" just as little as we did in our first birth (John 3:5-7), clothes us in Christ's righteousness (Gal. 3:26-27), gives us the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-6), saves us (1 Peter 3:21), buries us and raises us up with Christ as new creatures (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12), makes us holy in God's sight (Eph. 5: 25-26) and incorporates us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). All of this, according to the Bible, happens in baptism, and all of it is God's doing, not ours. The promises and power of baptism are extended to all in Scripture--including infants-and are available to all. Parents and sponsors then have the privilege and responsibility of nurturing the baptized child in God's love and in His Word so that he or she may know and continue to enjoy the wonderful blessings of baptism throughout his or her life.

I know that I am "pushing some things" ~ but as Lutherans we look at salvation (accepting Christ) as something that Christ does for us and not as something that "we" do. We feel that we cannot even accept Him without Him accepting for us. Complicated to most but so real to us. We feel Jesus did EVERYTHING for us.

Gotta :running: but I will get back to all of you soon.

Gary

Gary, a question
 

I have read your post and have enjoyed all you have said. I know a lot of truly great Lutherans - love them greatly - and they are really strong and great followers of Jesus Christ.

Question on the following verse - one of the first you mention:

Acts 2:38 Peter replied, 'Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of the Jesus CHrist for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Taking this Scripture only and applying it to infant baptism. To repent our sins we have to acknowledge we are a sinner. As an adult we know that all are with sin - even new born babies. But my question is if we use just this verse for baptising an infant I don't understand how the infant can repent from its sin when it is in capable of 'talking.'

I know this sounds picky - and we all have our own beliefs - and the main thing as you mentioned is that we believe that Christ died forus - but I can't see how this applies to infants.

Also I am of the understanding that the 'Jews' when they do the 'bar mitzph (spelling) do it when they believe the child has come to an age of understanding - and that could be why a lot of churches that don't do infant baptisms do so.

Comments?

OK Gary another question re baptism
 

Here is one for you.

My daughter Priscilla is 17 and has Down Syndrome. She was not baptised as a baby and has not been baptised as of today.

Is she saved? Yes. How do I know? Can anyone really know if someone else is saved. Priscilla will tell you 'I love Jesus, He lives in my heart, I try to be good every day.' I believe she as an understanding of accepting Christ - so why has she not taken the step of baptism. It is very terrifying for her to watch people being submerged. Sitting in the congregation watching others being submerged she gets very teary eyed and joyful and says 'That person really loves Jesus.' And when we ask if she wants to do the same her answer is 'No, I don't want to be in the water to scary.'

So on that note - how does this affect her eternal life with Christ - if being baptised is an ordinance that all believers should do - how will it affect her after life. I know there are a lot of people out there that have never been baptized either as an infant or as an adult. And some of them have passed one. One of these is my dear brother. But I know he is in heaven with Jesus because he did profess a belief in Christ.


Would like to hear what you think about those that belief - have accepted Christ as their personal Savior - but have not been baptized - and have now died - do you believe they are with the Lord or 'somewhere else'

Checking in before going to bed ~ MARILYN ~ I LOVE THIS! I don't have time to explain all of my feelings tonight, however, as far as dear Priscilla is concerned ~ I do not feel, or Lutherans for that matter, that you HAVE to be baptised to have eternal life with Christ. Also in my church, people are not submerged, our Pastor pours a little water over the head of the person being baptised.

Marilyn I agree like you do that Priscillia is saved and that she doesn't have to be baptized to be accepted into heaven. Baptism is an act of obedience just like losing this weight is for me an act of obedience. Whereas salvation is a gift from God that I accept once and for all.

I believe in the doctorine of election that says that God chose us before the formation of the world. Eph 1:4-14. This has taken me a long time to get to this point but I have to believe that the word of God is true. Our chief goal on earth is to glorify God by spreading his word to all that we meet. We do not know who has been chosen only God does.

As for when you are baptized age is not a factor but you must be able to answer that you believe in Jesus and have accepted him as your Lord. Otherwise why didn't Philip baptize the Ethiopian man first before explaning the scriptures to him. So I don't believe that a baby can be baptized. They can be christened and given a name or they can be dedicated. Baptising doesn't save anyone.

As for small children and those that never professed faith in Christ, I believe that they will be judged in the end like we will. Everyone that is born because of Adam is born into a sinnful nature. There is a gap between God and man. The only way that that gap is bridged is through Christ's death. We must believe that Jesus died for us and rose again. If we change the rules for anyone than we are saying that God is infalible and can make mistakes. I can't believe this otherwise than my whole system of belief is a waste.

I know that it sounds harsh and very confusing. Mainly we have to trust and be obedient in all things that we do.

I have been doing better this week getting in over 8 glasses of water a day and making better food choices. Hard to exercise because my mom has come to visit. I have been walking with her but she walks really slow. Next week I will start back at the health club. I miss strenght training and yoga.
Will be praying for everyone and look forward to continue with the discussions.:)

Sorry to interrupt this awesome string
 

I have something off topic to say....................................

Christina Go DUKE
:carrot: :D :spin: :cb: :bravo: :cp: :hat: :dancer: :sunny: :cheer: :) :hug: :bravo: :dance: :hat: :cp: :dancer: :flow1: :yes: :bubbles: :encore: :sunny: :cheer:

It is my dream one day after DH and kids get into college/finish college......I want to go back and get my masters in History. Just waiting my turn. However, I am taking Spanish in either summer or fall.

Everybody have a fabulous day and God bless.

OK - go on with the topic of Baptism and Salvation cause it is fascinating to see everyones take. You guys or shall I say y'all are awesome.

Jouornal for today February 22, 2006
 

Are you having a difficult time whenyou try to memorize a Bible verse? Ask God to help you understand His Words today.

My friend from high school is a Lutheran. I am worried about the unsaved friends I have, I don't think they deserve to go to ****, I am praying for them so that they may come to Christ. I have some online friends that are Wiccans or Pagans or Buddhists or atheists. I must pray for them, I would hate for them to end up in **** because they did not follow Jesus. As for baptism, I think people can be saved and not be baptised to get into heaven. baptism is an outward sign of faith. I think people who were baptised as babies and get saved and accept Jesus CHrist as their savior do not need to get baptised again, except if they have gone astray from Christ or if they grew up without really understanding what it means to be a Christian.

Hi All, sorry to have been away for so long, so much going on, the washer broke, parents got sick, dd had a birthday, and on and on and on:dizzy:

Christina - CONGRATS!! You must be so happy and proud:carrot:

Wow! Miss a few days and you miss a lot here!! Welcome to all the new friends I've been reading about! I hope to get to know you all better. And what an awesome discussion about baptism and heaven!! I really appreciate all the different points of view and the fantastic faith statements everyone has been making! I am Catholic and we do infant baptism, with godparents and parents promising to raise the child in the faith, teaching him/her of God's unconditional love and of the love and support of the community. Marilyn, I have no doubt that your daughter will be in heaven, since she is so pure of heart:love: One of the major things we believe is that we don't know the mind of God and we pray for all the departed, whose faith is known to Him alone. I trust Him to love, even when we can't.

Marilyn...I love your idea of restarting the jumpstart!!:carrot: I really need to do it too. I have not been good at all lately and I feel pretty guilty about it. I know I need to stop eating junk between meals, exercise and drink lots more water. Sooo, I'm glad there's a tomorrow to start again. What a gift!

Well, speaking of tomorrow,,,,I'm pretty :stress: since I have to go have 2 hearing aids fitted. Hopefully I won't have to wear them all the time, maybe just at school. I feel really dumb having to ask people to repeat what they've just said....and it gets really tiring having to strain all the time. I just need some help to adjust, I guess. Luckily, I can have a 6 week trial to see if they're the right type (NYstate law), if not they can change them without cost. That's good because our health insurance doesn't cover them at all. It is a worry since we have 1 in college, 1 starting college in Sept and 1 in private school (medical/sp ed needs). I don't know how we'll manage, but I guess we will.

Well, guess I'd better get some sleep....thanks for all you do to make this a welcoming place. talk to you soon, c

What an uplifting subject !!! I must say that after a long day's work this really made my day. I totally agree with Salvation then baptism. My family go to Pleasant Hill Baptist, a rather small chruch. It was there that I learned about baptism and what it means. Since learning about it my husband has come to accept Jesus Christ as his Savior. The chances of an adult coming to Christ after the age of 40 are very slim. So I am very thankful to know when we have served our time on earth, I will see him in heaven. As a Sunday School teacher and Cubbie director I can share what we teach. I, as many others, do not want to offend anyone. I have enjoyed learning about the different beliefs. Thanks so much !! We teach the ABC's of salvation. They are A-Admit you are a sinner. Repent, turning from your sins.(Romans 3:23; B-Believe Jesus is God's son. Accept God's gift of forgiveness. (Romans 5:8, 6:23), C-Confess Jesus as your Savior. (Romans 10:9) As I said this is what we teach children so it is pretty simple. We do teach them once saved, always saved. After accepting Christ as their Savior, they talk with the Pastor and their parents about baptism (to make sure they totally understand). Having been so involved with the children of our chruch I do know most of them have a fear of being baptised. They usually are afaird of drowning. The Pastor is so awesome in explaining what will happen. This has been such a pleasure in sharing this with all of you. I will continue to pray for each of you. Please know that you are being lifted in prayer by lots of us daily. Thank you for all that I have aready learned here.

Mindy
P.S Gary we tried the mozzarella chicken, absolutelly wonderful !!!!!!!!! Thanks so much !!!

Hi there!
 

From the Baptist Perspective why we do not baptize infants. Which we believe is biblical as well. Mathew 28:18-20 Does say God commanded them to go ye teach, and Baptise. We believe: Go Ye means as you are going ex. work school, anywhere. It was a command to them as well as all followers of the faith to go forth teaching about our Savior. Then the second part Baptise follows the teaching. I also believe this was a pronouncement of victory. The kingdom that was rejected by the Jews was offered to the gentiles.
The church has baptised infants since the earliest days of history. I beleive the water baptism of the New Testament was immersion (Act 8:36-39 Jn 3:23 Math 3:16) Baptism is a burial (Rom 6:4, Col. 2:12) Sprinkling and /or pouring do not show burial ([B]The way I believe it must) [B/] The Greek Noun (Baptisma) transliterated baptism means immersion, "baptism, consisting of the process of immersion, submersion, and emergence. I took the liberty of looking up the 1st recorded case of pouring. It was not until 251 AD. It was considered the exception even by its promoters. It was not until 13ll AD that sprinkling and /or pouring were accepted by man.

Who are to be baptized? ([B]According to my belief) The simple answer is the taught are to be baptized Jn 6:44-45. Disciples are made by teaching and baptism. Math. 28:19 Baptism is for those that believe, are penitent, and confess that Jesus is the Son of God Mark 16:15-16, Acts 2:38, 8:36-37, Rom. 10:9-10. See Acts 8:12 and 5:14 "But when they believed Phillip preaching...They were baptized both men and women" The practise of baptizing infants came after the writing of the new testament. Since I feel it is impossible for a baby to abide in the doctrine of Jesus Christ until they are of understanding, I do not believe they should be baptized See. 2 John 9-11[B/]
I agree all people are sinful including babies. I believe as Mavnan said, we will all be judged. But I believe they will not be found guilty, no more than handicapped people that are incapable of understanding.

Baptism somewhat like old testament circumcision.
Colossians 2:11-12 In Him (Jesus) you were also cicumcised with the circumcision made without hands, by putting off of the body of the sins of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ, buried with Him in baptism, in which you also were raised with Him through faith in the working of God, who raised Him from the dead.

[B]The argument for this belief is based on a comparison with Jewish circumcision God ordained this for male children as a way to identify them with himself. The difficulty with this argument is that Paul goes to get lengths to argue that the ceremony of circumcision was of no value and that what God required was a circumcision of the heart by the spirit. Romans 2:29
I will ellaborate further my beliefs on this on Fri as I am outta time.[B/]
Mavnan- I agree with you, I believe God chose us. Its through Him not us that we are chosen. (The Elect)
Beth- Get masters in History that will be cool.
Keeping the faith- Here's some will power dust to help get ya back on track. Prayers hearing aids work out well. Mindy I agree, same belief.
E.Z. - There are many ways to dissagree doctrinally that do not I believe effect salvation. There is pretribulation vs. midtribulation vs. posttribulation. There is premillenialist, vs. post millenialists vs a- milleniallists. ect ect ect. But PTL our differnces do not impede our salvation or our love for each other in Christ. God Bless!
See ya all Fri.

Where is the recipe? I could not find it and would like to try it! Thanks.

Thursday Evening
 

HI GALS~:wave:

Q. Why do Lutherans baptize infants?

A. Lutherans baptize infants because of what the Bible teaches regarding:

1.) God's command to baptize (Matthew 28:18-20; Mark 16:16; Acts 2:38). There is not a single passage in Scripture which instructs us not to baptize for reasons of age, race, or gender. On the contrary, the divine commands to baptize in Scripture are all universal in nature. On the basis of these commands, the Christian church has baptized infants from the earliest days of its history. Since those baptized are also to be instructed in the Christian faith, (Matt. 28:20), the church baptizes infants only where there is the assurance that parents or spiritual guardians will nurture the faith of the one baptized through continued teaching of God's Word.

2.) Our need for baptism (Psalm 51; 5; John 3:5-7; Acts 2:38; Romans 3:23; Romans 6:3-4). According to the Bible, all people--including infants--are sinful and fall short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23). King David confesses, "I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me" (Ps. 51:5). Like adults, infants die--sure proof that they too are under the curse of sin and death. According to the Bible, baptism (somewhat like Old Testament circumcision, administered to 8-day-old-babies--see Col. 2:11-12) is God's gracious way of washing away our sins--even the sins of infants--without any help or cooperation on our part. It is a wonderful gift of a loving and gracious God.

3.) God's promises and power (Acts 2:38; Mark 16:16; Acts 22:16; 1 Peter 3:21; John 3:5-7; Titus 3:5-6; Galatians 3:26-27; Romans 6:1-4; Colossians 2;11-12; Ephesians 5:25-26; 1 Corinthians 12:13). Those churches which deny baptism to infants usually do so because they have a wrong understanding of baptism. They see baptism as something we do (e.g., a public profession of faith, etc.) rather than seeing it as something that God does for us and in us. None of the passages listed above, nor any passage in Scripture, describes baptism as "our work" or as "our public confession of faith." Instead, these passages describe baptism as a gracious and powerful work of God through which He miraculously (though through very "ordinary" means) washes away our sins by applying to us the benefits of Christ's death and resurrection (Acts 2:38:39; Acts 22:16), gives us a new birth in which we "cooperate" just as little as we did in our first birth (John 3:5-7), clothes us in Christ's righteousness (Gal. 3:26-27), gives us the Holy Spirit (Titus 3:5-6), saves us (1 Peter 3:21), buries us and raises us up with Christ as new creatures (Rom. 6:4; Col. 2:11-12), makes us holy in God's sight (Eph. 5: 25-26) and incorporates us into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13). All of this, according to the Bible, happens in baptism, and all of it is God's doing, not ours. The promises and power of baptism are extended to all in Scripture--including infants-and are available to all. Parents and sponsors then have the privilege and responsibility of nurturing the baptized child in God's love and in His Word so that he or she may know and continue to enjoy the wonderful blessings of baptism throughout his or her life.