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What's Wrong With Churches?
Over the years on 3FC I have heard many reasons why some of us don't go to church.
As most of you know...I do...and love my church.... I read an article tonight in our local paper about a church that I have gone to for Christmas and Easter presentations ...a very large one...over 10,000 members. Anyway, for those of you that know of Crystal Cathedral, know that they had had some "issues" recently. I believe that most churches do have "issues" from time to time...no matter the size or religion.... I could tell you several of things right with my church.... But what I want to know is what do you think is "wrong" with churches? And even better..."why" don't you go? or "why" you do go.... |
I am so sorry to hear that the Crystal Cathedral is going down a rough road. I am one that does not go to church. I have been judged because I don't. I get up and listen to church on TV, love Joel Olsten preaching, because most the time he gives me a message I need to hear.
One reason I want my husband to go with me if I ever find one, suppose to go to a Cowboy church the end of this month at the rodeo grounds in Marble falls with a friend of mine. Listen to them on tv and my husband listens to that church too. They say in plain words that a simple person like me can understand and take to heart. You have been blessed to find a church you love Gary I have not yet. But I have been baptized in the eyes of our Lord in the Church Of Christ. That does not mean I am a Church Of Christ though, it means I love Jesus and I wanted to be baptized with in his faith in his eyes and that he knows I love and believe in him. Jesus is the only reason I was baptized not to belong to a church. |
I go to St. Xavier's Sunday mornings, it's lovely, and peaceful, and the services make me feel more connected to my community, the homilies are often thoughtful, funny, pertinent.
it also let's me reconnect to my spiritual feelings, that the week's craziness can pull me away from. http://i1007.photobucket.com/albums/...ncis2008-2.jpg |
Well Gary, since you asked... :)
I grew up in a small town here in GA, raised Southern Baptist with a Primitive Baptist preacher for a grandfather. I have never been comfortable with churches. Too many people, not enough true practice of faith. I admit to being an atheist, but I have nothing but respect for people who truly believe for their own valid reasons and live that faith. You can't live that faith when you are more worried about what kind of shoes another person has on than the sermon. You can't live that faith when you throw out a member who brings his foster child, a 6 year old African American child who had been in foster care for three years before this white family took him in, and remind said member 'our church bylaws (from 1845) say none of those black people can come in the doors'. You can't live that faith when you vote out every preacher who tells you that coming to church on Sundays doesn't make up for the terrible things you do during the week. You can't live that faith when you brainwash small children to a belief system before they are old enough to understand and make their own valid choices of their faith. There is no room for politics in a church, in my opinion. Churches that preach politics aren't churches and should lose the tax exempt protections that they have. Churches shouldn't exist just to further a person's place in society. I remember watching people at the big First Baptist Church in my hometown spend years trying to work their way up from the back pews to the front, because the front pews were the doctors and the lawyers and the city councilmen. Churches shouldn't be about hatred or racism or bigotry or discrimination. Churches should be about learning about your chosen faith. Asking questions should be encouraged, not criticized. That is an opportunity to share your message, take it. I don't go now because I don't believe. When I was younger and still questioning I stopped going as soon as I was old enough to get a part time job and work on Sunday. I hated the hypocrisy and the judging and the ugliness hidden behind a pretty shine. And I went to several different churches of different denominations, so I didn't just get a bad one. My parents are still having troubles at their church to this day, they aren't going to church right now either. Which I actually find sad, because they do believe and find comfort in church and the same drama has caused them to stop something that they enjoy. Okay, end rant. ;) |
Well, right now, we mostly go to my husband's Catholic Church (he goes more than me for health reason's), even though I am Protestant in my beliefs, but we try to focus on what we have in common rather than dispute what we don't agree on. Some of DH's friend try to debate me about their doctrines, but I won't go there becuz I think that is futile.
I am a thinker and a true believer, in that I read the bible myself, and I study Christian literature regularly; and I have even studied other religions to understand their beliefs as well. On occasion, DH & I will go to a Protestant church of my choosing just for something different esp for me, which is only fair, I think. I have had many good experiences but also some notsogood ones, like others have stated already; and there were some periods in my life where I didn't go to church for awhile, becuz I couldn't find one where I felt accepted and comfortable. Most of all, I try not let my belief in GOD & JESUS be affected by the faults of church members or leaders who are flawed human beings, but I do know what others mean when they say that they have witnessed or experienced things that really turned them off; I think many of us have sometime in our lives ... I can understand why SHANNON feels the way she does about the things she saw or heard in the churches she went to; but I think it's a shame to see someone lose their faith for those kinds of reasons, becuz in a sense they are cheated of the benefits of Faith becuz of someone else's misguided ideas and behavior. BOOTSIE ~ some may not like that I say this, but I don't think we should go to a church if we don't feel good about it. I have been to churches where our family was berated by a minister (when we were children), so we left and didn't go to church for years. Thankfully, most of us still believe, or have returned to our beliefs. I have even been berated in 2 churches about my weight -- I walked out the door and didn't go back. If they care, then they should pray for me, not criticize me in public -- that is cruel discrimination, which is not GODLY or Christian. So I go home and pray for those ministers that GOD will open their hearts and eyes to GOD's Love. Today, I am looking for a church that exemplifies GOD's Word and HIS Love by their words and examples. I know that no-one is perfect, and so we pick based on what we feel is best for us. Right now, that is my DH's church; and I watch THE HOUR OF POWER (Crystal Cathedral) for myself which I can do at home even when I don't feel well enuff to go out. They also send their positive and uplifting sermons and devotionals to my email so I can catch up when I want to. As a matter of fact, I watch and read as many ministers as I can find; and I do 2 or 3 devotionals each day, and sometimes more. I try to spend at least an hour a day in prayer and praise for others, as well as reading the the bible each day. I am the type that needs to be challenged in my thoughts and spirit, as well as finding peace and serenity and belonging -- that is the kind of church I would like to go to ... Sorry, if I went on too long ... :hug: |
We attend a United Methodist Church (I grew up UCC and DH grew up Baptist). We LOVE our church family.
Why do we attend? Faith is meant to be lived out in community. While I certainly am able to be a Christian without attending church, being part of a church family is important. We do truly love each other and surround each other with prayers and support. We have a wonderful church family. Each and every one of us has our issues. Not one of us is perfect. I struggle with folk that say they don't attend because they don't like how Christians behave. Being a Christian doesn't make us magically perfect. We still struggle with temptations and behave in ways that are not always Christ-like. We are all GROWING in our faith, and it is a journey - much like our weight loss journey is. Our congregation is a very AWESOME group of folk. We have so many members that have come to us after trying out other churches. They felt like outsiders because they were "different" than the majority of the members. We have people from all walks of life, all age groups, all income levels, etc. We are a diverse group, but together, we can do so much more than we can separately! Like being at 3FC is a blessing because traveling this weight loss journey alone would be much more difficult, being a part of my church family gives me support and love and an opportunity to grow and share with others. Our church vison statement pretty much sums it up, "Growing In God’s Grace, Sharing Christ’s Love - Together." |
Mediocrity and conformity, mostly. Church was mostly pulling me down instead of pushing me up.
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Thank you all for your responses :)
It isn't a secret around here that I really love my church. Each week, as we finish the closing hymn, I take a few seconds to look up at the crucifix we have (a beautiful sculpture made by former San Diego Charger, Ed White) and the stained glass windows....I thank God for the opportunity to come worship Him here and ask that He bring me back the following week. I know that not everyone desires the same thing. What bothers me sometimes though is things that people say that simply are not true. My cousin, who just celebrated his 50th wedding anniversary a few days ago (yours truly :) me :) was his ring bearer 50 years ago! at the age of 5) has some interesting views on church., and he has passed these down to his children...who are in their 40's and not little kids. Anyway, one thing he says is ...."All churches want is your money"....no matter how many times I tell him that my church has NEVER asked me for money...ever. I will admit we have one stewardship service each year explaining God's Word on tithing...10% in the Old Testament...from your Heart in the New Testament. We also ask for "anonymous" pledges from time to time so we can budget. He also feels Pastors should work for free...yet he feels he should be paid for his work...go figure ;) Now, I have been around long enough to know that $$$ is an issue at many churches. One of his sons claims to be a Catholic, went to a Catholic church with his ex-wife for about a year.....over 10 years ago.....never been back....yet he claims to be a Catholic and his dad says things like...."well it's because he is a Catholic"....huh?...As far as I can remember....and I changed his diapers!...he has never mentioned church around me. The other son said this to me a few years ago the day after Christmas..."I wonder how many atheists celebrated yesterday"....huh?....This man....as far as I know...and he is my cousin...has never sat foot in a church or opened the Bible...yet it is fine for him to celebrate Christmas and not an atheist?...huh... I will be back to chat....another day:) |
Julie, that quite possibly is the best reason I've heard yet to quit attending church/es. I couldn't agree with you more.
For what it's worth the Bible does state that where "two or more" are gathered in His name, there is a church. |
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Isn't that wonderful! No matter how big a church or small...no matter in a building or home, a fox hole, a barrack, hospital, nursing home... on a street corner...He is with us...always...if we are in His Word! Awesome stuff...awesome :) |
Gary yes I have heard views that way too. I don't have anyone ,it is only me but I have always been a loner unless you count my animals beside me,praising Jesus and talking to him. The place I feel the closest to him is under the great stars our Father created. I just feel sometimes I could reach up and touch him.
He is so awesome! |
BOOTSIE ~ I have heard about those COWBOY Churches...sounds like a great idea to me! I have been blessed to have my church....that is why I try to encourage others to find one they feel at home in. My Pastor has never said anything from the pulpit that I did not understand...and as you said "we" are simple people....although I may not understand preaching at the Cowboy Church...with that Texas twang and all ;) When we baptise folks at our church they are baptised in the name of Christ...not our religion...we belong to Him...not our church or religion :hug:
DRAGONWOMAN ~ What a beautiful place to worship! How close is it to Wagner University?...do you know? SHANNON ~ How horrible! I remember when I first started going to my church, about 27 years ago...I was about 28 so fairly young. I was at a social event for our church, our Pastor (still the same one today) came by my table to sit for a bit with my ex-wife and I....while we were chatting an older women...I'll say around 60 or so came up to introduce herself...very nice. As the conversation went on she made mention of the "shoes" the boys were wearing when they did their acolyte duties....evidently some where wearing tennis shoes :o Now my Pastor calmed her down and explained to her in his awesome way..."it isn't about the shoes" . I will tell you our religion, by tradition is "white" :) I will also tell you that my congregation has all races and colors as far as I can tell...many a mixed race too...Thank-You God! I can tell you that my church, as far as I can tell from talking "politics" around coffee in the patio area, is Republican. I can also swear that I have never ever heard anything political coming from our pulpit. We always pray for our leaders, as Christ instructed us to. I will admit that our Pastor is not afraid to tell a joke about a red or blue politician either...or the San Diego Chargers/Padres....and of course being a Minnesota Vikings fan he is always ragging on the Packers!...and the Vikings ;) I cracked up at the "seating"...we traditionally sit at the back :D I sit far left, 8th row back from the front...5 rows behind me...always have. We are near the cry room...in case someone needs to run out with a crying baby (now this does not mean that we don't have commotion going on with the little kids either) I enjoy the kids...I hand out baseball cards to them and they love it! I sat there when mine were babies and grew to adults...I am not leaving my pew!...my pew!!...all mine...;) If you have any questions I would NOT criticize you for asking...I promise! :) ROSEBUD ~ I find it apalling that you have been criticed for your weight at church...or anywhere! We go way back so I know where you are :hug: I love what you say about not letting your love for Christ be broken by flawed human beings! :) SCOOTER ~ Ditto your post! :) JULIE ~ I am sorry your church experience was pulling you down...it shouldn't be that way. That is not God's way. Thigs Be Gone ~ Thank you for the reminder that church can be anywhere that God and the Word is present. Thanks for your input ~ Gary |
I watched Hour of Power for many years and was a big fan. I did get much encouragement and blessings from it ........but I noticed as years passed a lack of humility and found the emphasis had changed as to where the real power is.
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Bargoo you are so right!
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BARGOO & BOOSTIE ~ yes, I agree with both of you about the CC Ministries, as I started to notice some odd things a few years ago myself (a blip here and there); and from what I have read, the board noticed it too and asked the founding minister to come back out of retirement for the next two years to work along with a mix of guest pastors and teachers to restore and improve that ministry during these hard times. I am enjoying the sermons and devotionals much more these days too.
No matter what church or Christian ministry you are, we always have to be very diligent that we do not stray from our original mission -- and that is to share the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ and Our Father GOD in heaven, who loves and cares about us all. GARY ~ thanks for your kind supporting words. You are indeed blessed to have found such a wonderful place of worship. Part of our problem is that we live in a small town in an isolated area; if we lived further south, we would have many more churches to choose from. Christians who read the bible know that ministers are supposed to be paid for this work, although some Amish pastors do hold down jobs and share preaching and teaching with a large group of volunteers (as many as 12 in some churches) and they hold services in different homes (we attended one when we were kids a few times). I am hearing of small groups that are now meeting in homes, and some churches are even renting space to these groups on Saturdays and off times too, and that works out well for all involved. |
I do go to church and really like the one we're at now, but that hasn't always been the case. In my opinion, what's wrong with most churches is that the leadership doesn't really believe that what the Bible says is the complete and total truth. If the pastor &/or other leadership aren't true believers, no one will hear the gospel and there will be problems. I was a member of a church with a believing pastor (he married us), but the church's committee members got tired of hearing the gospel preached, so they voted to ask him to transfer and we ended up with someone who was just looking for extra retirement income and had no idea what the gospel actually said or meant. We left that church after being members for several years, so we could find a church that would actually help us learn and keep growing. When the leadership doesn't believe, no one in the church will be learning or growing and the membership will really be no different than the rest of the world around them.
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What is wrong with churches? WOW what a loaded question. I have been looking for a new church due to a move, And I am looking for a church or a body of believers who are willing to not be conformed to the world, but I see the church not standing outside the world but embracing the world. I want to see the transformation of the renewing of there minds, by believing like the previous poster said, by believing in God, in Jesus that he came to set us free, by believing in the word and standing on it. That we are overcomers. I don't believe it is just the leaderships responsibility but all believers, but people do look to leadership and as the saying goes as the preacher, minister, priest, so goes the church. Since I have seen a lot of churches I have seen a lot of insecure people, masking and window dressing., It really saddens me. But we are sheep and from what I have heard from the different churches is they are crying out. And most want the power of the Holy Spirit, and desire and a hunger to move in power and prayer, once again. I have seen some very strong churches too, but not very many. I do believe that God will bring healing to his beloved church in her weakness, But for now she is being humbled.
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I have been to Crystal Cathedral a few times for the Easter and Christmas shows as I mentioned but I have not seen the Hour Of Power for years and years. Most of my information comes from the Faith and Values section of our local paper. That is where I have been reading about the change back to dad Schuller and now the daughter seems to be running things. The church is about 50 miles from me and I pass by it often.
I have seen interviews with Joel Osteen but have never seen his show either. I do know some TV evangelists sure give (and not speaking of the above) the Christian faith a black eye :( Since I go to church on a very regular basis I don't watch it on TV much but I do thank God for the vessel that many can learn and grow from His Word. I think as long as we use our heads and hearts and Bibles as we watch...God will show us the Way :) All churches are different. Some have volunteer pastors...some congregations provide housing and the pastor/minister needs to work elsewhere too. Our Pastor has a full time job with our church. We give him a check each week and he pays taxes and provides for his own housing, food, etc just as we do. There is no right or wrong...all of us worship in different situations. If your leadership doesn't believe the Bible then run...run as fast as you can to another church! AZULFIRE, No matter the direction "a church" is going...we can move with the Power Of the Holy Spirit and spread the message individually. God has placed us in the world to do what He asks us to and that is to "make disciples of all nations" I think AZULFIRE makes an awesome statement here....but I...and only speaking for me...I feel that our relationship with Christ is a personal one. We each need to do what we feel He asks of us...we are all of one body...but separate parts of the Body Of Christ. Just as I feel one person can sour many in a church....I feel one person can turn that church around with their love of our Lord :) In Christ ~ Gary |
Hi,
I always called myself a christian. But,w/in the last year I find myself growing more in Christ. And developing a deeper relationship w/him. I know it is there. However,I do not go to church.I know it is wrong not to go. Why am I not going?I don't know if it's just laziness or not finding the church that is right for me.If someone could give me some suggestions,that would be great.I live in a small town,so there are not alot of options.The church I was going to ,just didn't do it for me.However,someone told me ,you don't go to church to get something out of it,you go to honor God.Which makes sense I guess.I do pray and talk to God. But,it is in the back of my mind I should be doing more. |
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Tracy, hi. :) If your heart is telling you to do more, then you need too. Don't be so afraid of metting people and a different church-it will feel strange, kind off like, "Who are these people?" But, we'll always have to face uncomfortable situations in life, what matters is not the church or religion, but the feeling of God around you and inside your soul. We all just need to find God, and see who he really is. And fallow is love and glory. But, like you said, honnoring-I think you can't honnor him if your not in a church you feel relaxed in and like, one that doesn't seem fake and dishonest. You can honnor God anytime, no matter were you are. What's importent is reseaving his messages. ...and to me honnoring? To me honnoring him is loving him. Knowing him. Wanting to do his will, and help this world. Wanting to bring love and joy and understanding into peoples lifes, and to grow wise in his ways. That's honnoring. Loving him, when your unsure of God and don't feel like you know him...can you say you know him. Faith and asking him to simply come into your life, is the start of understanding of chance. Sometimes we disagree with the church and wounder why does this seem wrong to me? Just look for the right church, ones that seem full of love. You don't have to go to church to get closer to God, but if you go to the right one for you, it will bring you to him. Ask him for guidence, to help derect you in what your suppose to do. Some people are so blind...they don't really know what it is to feel him, or his love. If you feel alone and missing, then our lifes will never be right or complete. God isn't some icon of power...I think people have been blinded by the misleading, we all need to have open hearts to him, so we can feel him as he is, and not as we think he is. I go to Central Christian Church. I really like it. It's a very up beat church that's really modern, with Chirstian rock music and really good songs and the paster takes things from the bible and each week has a theme about life. And what everyone one is going threw. God's truth of his love, just settles over everyone and you can just feel the peace in all of our hearts there, leveryone looks calm and happy. You need a church that doesn't yell religion in your face and scorns you(that's not were God is), but one that 'speeks' with care and derectly to your heart, no matter the people sitting around you. This is you and him. You feel loved and safe there...I think that's what everyone is thursting for. A church that heals you. This one does. I think it has a website too. Don't be afraid to check it out, it's really cool. I can't post it becuase it says I have to have 25 posts. *scuffs* Sorry for the lecture. :( Check if there's one near you. I deeply encourage anyone who is serching for a church to check out Central's like broke cast online. I don't always agree with what churches say or do, I am really strongly apposted to seeing so much bull and misleading things in religions that has nothing to do truth and purity of mind, body, and soul. but I like mine. I'm a very spiritiual person more then anything, and am still walking down my own journey to God and his plan for me. Oh and Tracy, I know you'll find that deeper connection. :) Just keep your heart and mind open, and push out all the things that we have come to believe is God..and let him show you himself. ...Just ask him to come into your heart...for him to show you, and he will anwser you, in a way you'll know it's him. He works in misterious ways. One of the problems we face today is that when were not open to him, we miss his wispers...and never think he answers us, or is there. God bless. (sorry for all the writing, I got into it.) And all God wants...is to show you how much he deeply loves you. <3 He wants to shed his light apon you. To express your safe and loved. And that he knows you more then anyone. All your thoughts, wishes and dreams. That he's always there, and loves you unconditionally. We are his children. |
As I read some of these responses, I can't help but feel that we should be focusing more on WHAT'S RIGHT WITH CHURCHES and HOW CAN WE FIND ONE THAT'S RIGHT FOR US?
I read the bible every day, and I have never found any verse that says that NOT going to church is 'WRONG' per se, but we are encourgaged to "gather together with other believers" for OUR benefit. And, I've never read that going to church is solely for 'honoring GOD', but it is does say or refer to this -- a temple or church is supposed to be ... 1 -- a HOUSE OF PRAYER 2 -- a place of gathering for believers 3 -- a place of edification (specifically for believers) 4 -- a place to share the gospel 5 -- a place to study the scriptures 6 -- a place to learn how to live in a GODLY manner 7 -- a place of praise and worship (with word, song, and music) Now, as GARY and others say and believe, we know that we can do all the above anywhere -- in a church building, or a home, or a subway, or a barn (we have one minister who turned his barn into a kind of church here), or a theater, or a school, or an empty storage building, a borrowed church, OR even as Jesus did, out in the open, like on a beach or a park ... I find it interesting that JESUS taught and preached in the outdoors, and in natural settings more than anywhere else that we know, even the temples; and that was free, but this fact is not often mentioned by those who want us to go to their churches ... lol! Mostly, I think that it would be lovely to be able to find a place where you can make Christian friends, pray and praise and worship together, learn together, socialize & play together, get counselling & encouragement, and other Christian supports ... I mean, the church could be much more than they often are. I have to agree with the observation that churches are only as good as the minister and/or leaders that are running them, becuz they can either make a church or break it. I find some people aren't even listening half the time to what is being preached; and I am sometimes aghast at what I hear and see in some places. In the end, I think that you should pray about it, then go and try out every church in your town or area a few times each. In the meanwhile, get lots of Christian teaching whenever or wherever you can thru a multitude of sources, and go to a church of your personal choice and preference where you and your family members all feel comfortable and welcome ... |
ROSEBUD ~ I had hoped my "what's wrong with churches?" would be taken 2 ways....
"What's wrong with churches" :shrug: (Nothing.....) "What's wrong with churches?" :nono: (oh let me tell you....) I think most church goers can tell you stories on both sides of course. I think most of us agree here so far that one does not have to be in a church to have a relationship with our Lord. God tells us that we grow closer to Him in His Word. Now, I know that many people study the Word on their own....many in groups. I think one benefit we receive by hearing the Word in church is sometimes the pastor brings it to you in a way we may not have seen before. We never know where God is going to "touch" us....I can't tell you how many times that sermon was "just for me" at the right time. Many times I hustle into church and right on out again...like tonight...we were heading for Mexican food for dinner! But on the way out I ran into a guy that I haven't seen in a while, we talked college football for a few minutes and as we parted ways in the parking lot he hollered back to us..."it sure is good to see you both" Another thing I like going to church for is to keep up with people on our prayer list. I have been going for many years, I have seen many pass on and have seen many new births of course. Tonight I spent a few minutes talking with a member that runs our local Little League....years ago his dad ran the one I was in. There was a fire in the storage shed at the field...burned about 5 thousand worth of equipment. I grew up in that neighborhood....our talk brought up memories from the past. I am fortunate that our church has a Saturday night service too. We went tonight since I worked today.....missing a walk with my "girls"....off to the beach in the morning for a 3 mile walk and spinach croissants at the beach cafe ;) TRACY....I hope you find a "home" :) SNOWWOLF....I don't think anyone would feel lectured by your thoughts...thanks :) Later ~ Gary |
Justwant2Bhealthy, that would be so awseome, to have mass outside. Someone needs to get that started, if I ever become a pasture I'd do it outdoors, nature ties into everything about...the world.
And thank you, EZMONEY. :) oh, and on another note: It's not about finding a church for you...it's about finding God in one. (why waste your energy focusing on why churches are bad...just keep moving on-keep looking for any good one, it's not going to benifit us feeling cheated...I've learned.) There is so much more that he is wanting from us then just reading the bible or going to church... sometimes...he wants us to take our minds off of phisically going...phisically looking for him...for his word...hearing the words of a pasture isn't enough. We do need these things. But I honestly think we're missing the simpliest ways to hear him, to worship... it's up to us to understand how. Sorry, I keep feeling like, there is something needing to be said. :?: But I don't know how. I tried. Hope, someone can get something from what I'm trying to get across. Wierd question. Can anyone say they feel his love? |
Thanks Everyone,
I do appreciate your suggestions.I know if I pray about it more I will I will be led in the right direction-Thanks snowolf:) |
You are so right SNOW WOLF :) God does want more from us than reading the Bible and going to church. You are a smart kiddo!
We can find God in the outdoors....away from people....away from Pastors and video screens. He is there...we can see His works and feel His nature that He created for us. We have had some church services outside for special reasons...very cool. God also sends us into the world...we are not of this world but we are in it...created in it by Him. By going to church we are able to share with each other.....share our comforting visits with the elderly...volunteer at VBS, Youth Groups and Sunday School classes...encouraging younger members. We learn of wonderful things members are doing in the ministry....we see the results of our $$$ in mission work. So much more. We would not be able to do these things if we went off by ourselves. I think we all know what you are trying to say...I think you are looking for one word...BALANCE :) And yes....I can feel God's Love.... I feel it when I hold my wife....when my daughter or son tells me they love me at the end of our daily phone conversations...in their "hold me daddy's" when they were young....when my nephew called today to "share" his NOT getting a ticket ;)....and to tell me he got the "let's just be friends" call from his girl...I felt God's love in giving support. I saw God's love today in the ocean waves...the warmth of the sun...the wagging tails on my golden retrievers as we walked down the beach. I smelled God's love in the ocean air....the smells of the breakfasts being cooked in the motor homes parked at the beach. We can feel God's love always....because it is always there...sometimes in our hardships we feel it isn't there...but that is what we are feeling...sometimes are feelings are not the TRUTH. In Christ ~ Gary |
Snow-Wolf ~ yes, yes, yes, I think you hit the nail on the head really -- that is it ... GOD'S LOVE is missing in some churches, OR more importantly, you can find GOD'S LOVE in some churches more than others ...
Yes, I find it much easier to find GOD'S LOVE in many other places than in some churches: outdoors; in nature; in my furry boy's face and his loving ways towards us (I really think our pets are one of GOD's greatest sources of HIS LOVE); in the night skies; the stars; the happy face man on the moon; real love in some families, like the real LOVE I felt from my Grammies ... EZ ~ I so admire the great kind of love that you have in your family; but I'm afraid that isn't the way it is for too many of us. Both my DH and I come from families that it's hard to find love in -- there is more criticism, and greed, and selfishness, and jealousy, and competition than love. Now, some members are loving, but others you want to run from becuz they are so critical and negative of us. They say hurtful things to us and behind our backs and it is so hard for us to deal with. So I cling to the love I have found in GOD and JESUS: becuz without it, I think I would have died long ago. It is and has been GOD'S LOVE that keeps me going each day; it is GOD'S LOVE that gives me HOPE; it is GOD'S LOVE that carries me; it is GOD'S LOVE that heals me; it is GOD'S LOVE that holds me up; it is GOD'S LOVE that comforts me; and it is GOD'S LOVE that leads me on! Yes, I even think GOD'S LOVE is what I live for! This may be GOD'S doing, but as time goes on; I am learning to lean on HIM more and more, and less on those around me for that love. We all need love; but to me, GOD'S LOVE is the most pure love that exists. Just like PAUL says in his list of what love is and isn't, GOD'S LOVE is different: GOD's love doesn't disappoint, GOD's love doesn't criticize, GOD's love cares, GOD's love listens, GOD's love is reliable, GOD's love doesn't put land and things before his children ... in GOD's love, we come first ... That is why GOD is my true Father and my real Abba dad; and Jesus is my true brother and my real friend ... they are my best friends. Yes, they come before my earthy partner and my boy, NIKO sure comes in there too, becuz he is so loving and kind ... It is GOD'S LOVE that I was looking for many years ago when I searched and found him; and I guess that is why I am still having trouble finding that LOVE in some of the churches I have been to here. If you cut me up becuz I'm fat, how is that showing me GOD'S LOVE? If you put down my spouse and say mean things, how is that loving? I think that is what's missing or wrong with some churches -- they lack GOD'S LOVE ... Thank you, Snow Wolf! :hug: |
You have found the unconditional love ROSEBUD...as we both know.
That only comes from ONE source! There is a lot of love in my family....and...there has been a lot of hurt too. Going to church and learning to walk a little more Christ-like each and every day has helped me to help mend issues my family has had. As in all families...all is not peaches and cream! If one is looking for a church where everyone is showing God's love perfectly then I wanna go there! Our church has had it's nastiness too...we are full of sinners over there! The ticket for me is to look past that and keep focus on THE WORD and not the human... I am really enjoying our chats here! He has blessed you...other's have hurt you...that is not His way...He has worked things together for good in you. In His Love ~ Gary |
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Conversely, sometimes people tend to idealize others: like some people think that my DH is perfect (esp other women becuz that is what they want to believe), but the truth is that he is just as flawed as any other man, but I don't go around exposing his shortcomings to everyone I meet, simply becuz it isn't any of their business anyways. ;) Now, my weight is a very noticeable flaw and people make comments about it; and that makes me feel bad for him sometimes, but he says, when they put me down, they forget that they are putting him down too; and I said the same goes for me. When my father criticizes my spouse, he is indirectly doing the same to me, becuz I chose him (even though at the time, I may not have known all his faults). Now, I don't think I am responsible for my DH's imperfections and I shouldn't be, just as he shouldn't have to be for mine -- but we just hope in GOD'S grace that we are FORGIVEN for those shortcomings. Not everyone agrees in this life by what standard we judge or discern by. For example, I don't judge people by what they look like or how much money they have or where they live, but too many people do. Yes, we have dreams like everybody else, and we are doing the best we can, with what we have; and to rise above the limitations that we were dealt with in this life; but I think that we are doing great -- considering we aren't getting any help from anyone, except GOD (mind you, that made me laugh, becuz who else bigger could you have on your side). It's strange to me that some don't realize or appreciate the daily obstacles that my DH and I have overcome to achieve what we have so far. My earthly father cannot seem to stop talking to us kids like we are under 10 years old. I am having trouble ignoring it, as we find it so insulting. I am 50 years old and my Dad talks to me like I'm 5 -- and my DH is 62 years old and gonna be collecting his old age pension soon, and my Dad talks to him like he's only 6 and doesn't know anything ... :?: Now I remember telling someone recently; that I am firm believer from my experience, that to children our parents will always be parents (and not the friends that we'd hoped for, once we became adults) simply becuz some of our parents can't stop seeing us and treating us as little children! GEE, I just realized that I got way off topic in this post, but maybe it is indirectly related. Maybe if I can get a handle on this, then I can look at those in churches that confuse me or hurt me or whatever, with less dismay, and somehow learn to ignore them, so I can go to church and enjoy myself once again ... So, how do I do that, GARY? :shrug: Cuz one of two things can happen: either you become very critical of others too (which I now abhor), or you end up living like the 'walking wounded', which isn't a fun or pleasant way to live either. I know that I prayed about this a lot; and I felt impressed with this answer -- that GOD wanted me to realize that HE can use imperfect people too, even if they were making very noticeable mistakes; and that in our weakness, HE becomes stronger. In other words, even if a minister is flawed, and makes some gross errors, GOD can still use him to do HIS work, and he will still reach those that GOD wants him to at the time. This helped give me a different perspective, I must say. However, I think that I need more grease in my feathers, so that the personal insults can run off me, like water off a duck's back ... :lol: Presently, I am trying to focus on FORGIVENESS, but sometimes, it's very, very hard; especially at the time. I just keep praying, 'Lord, help me forgive them like you do, OR please forgive them for me'; and then please heal and bind my hurt so that I can move on and be an overcomer in this life. Sorry, for rambling ... :D |
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:hug: For that geometry class....I struggled in it in 10th grade! |
THANKS GARY ~ for taking out the time to answer my ramblings. Yes, I am trying very hard to forget the past, and look foward to the future glories; and that is why we decided to go to my DH's church from now on. We are presently sending up prayers for my father as we always do ...
SnowWolf ~ All I can say is that I'm more interested in going to a church where they share GOD'S LOVE, not waste my time, pointing out my personal flaws or that of my family members ... I already know them, so get over it already! :lol: But, I digress -- becuz we do know GOD and His lovely son, Jesus Christ, WE ARE ENLIGHTENED ALREADY! For HE IS THE LIGHT! And HE is in us; as is HIS love; and it is supposed to be in HIS churches through us ... (I have had some time to think about that one). ;) THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ... :hug: |
ROSEBUD sometimes I know people think I am telling them that they have to or should go to church to know "God"...but I never say that because I don't believe it. I have been around long enough to know that church is not for everybody...so many situations go wrong. However, I really feel if we are truly seeking a church home....God will leads us there.
When I went through my divorce 20 years ago I left my church for a period of time. It was difficult for me to go there when my ex still did. But no place else felt like home to me. I came back and never left...she did! for awhile...but came back...through all of the hardships our church was our home. I thank my Pastor for telling me, the first day in our class to become a new member, that there are many Christian churches in our area, many Christian religions in our area....our Missouri Synod Lutheran Church doesn't hold the "key" to Heaven! That come from Jesus Christ. I also remember him telling me that if you are not hearing God's Word preached from his mouth to get out and get out fast. He encouraged us to hear the sermon and research it in the Bible...if we didn't understand something he has always been there to clarify or direct us to where we can do our own research by ourselves or with a Bible study group. I watched my sister become a member, a youth group leader with me, become a pre-school teacher there....then leave slowly...one Sunday at a time....always some excuse. I saw my bil become a member the slowly leave....saying as soon as God gave him enough to provide for his family he would quit working Sundays. He just never has figured out that God always gave him enough. I watched my brother become a member the slowly leave....after many hours of extensive Bible studies and other programs he helped me with. He does go on occasion....my sister doesn't. I have heard the excuses why people leave a church after a service or two and after many. I just try to encourage people to give it another try. I don't have time tonight to share some of the uncomfortable situations I felt over the years in church. Maybe later...nothing that bad!...but if I stuck with those feelings about church I would have missed a lot in life. Prayers for all ~ Gary |
I wish your church was here in Texas , the town where I live Gary! I am still looking and will be going to the Cowboy Church this weekend , need to call my friend! I went to their website and it is awesome!
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SnowWolf ~ All I can say is that I'm more interested in going to a church where they share GOD'S LOVE, not waste my time, pointing out my personal flaws or that of my family members ... I already know them, so get over it already! :lol:
But, I digress -- becuz we do know GOD and His lovely son, Jesus Christ, WE ARE ENLIGHTENED ALREADY! For HE IS THE LIGHT! And HE is in us; as is HIS love; and it is supposed to be in HIS churches through us ... (I have had some time to think about that one). ;) THANKS FOR YOUR THOUGHTS ... :hug:[/QUOTE] :) I agree, yeah I wanted to delete that post. I thought about it later and thought what the heck was I talking about? haha! I'm sorry, to be truthfull in the moment I was mad at people like that, that's why I was all fired up. :( :) I don't know what I was trying to say, your so right! I wasn't um saying anyone wasn't enlightened...hmmm how to explain this. Please forgive me you guys I was speeking out in general and talking about no one. Does that make sense? :D And EZMONEY, sorry- I guess I'm not explaining myself at all well. I wasn't talking about you, I'm sorry you thought I was, I was more rambling/talking to you, just thoughts. :( gez, I don't write well, I'm not talking about you all as in you in this thread but everyone, I use that context to much. I was just trying to express how I view inlightenment...guess I didn't explain it well at all. Yep God is enlightenment... but I just think differently from my experience... I think of enlightenment differently. So anyway, I'm sorry for saying the wrong things. :( |
SnowWolf :hug:
You are explaining yourself fine! We all have trouble sharing our thoughts sometimes by posting :) You have shared yours fine! I was not offended...and WE all speak in general terms from time to time...mostly all the time :D We are enjoying your thoughts... Keep them coming! PS....how's that geometry coming ;) |
SnowWolf ~ I agree with GARY -- don't be too hard on yourself; one thing I have learned for sure, is that the written word can be taken many ways. We have enjoyed sharing our thoughts and contemplations with you here.
Heck, even I thought that I sounded like I was complaining and whining too much. We had just had a bad experience recently, so that is where I was coming from. Once we had some time to remove ourselves from the situation and reflect awhile, we could see the whole matter much more clearly. Indeed, sometimes our emotions can get in the way, esp when dealing with family issues. ;) More importantly, we are very glad that you came by, and joined this thread; so do stick around and post whenever and however you want to. :hug: |
Um thank you guys, very much. I just really dislike hurting people, I still don't think I understand what situations your talking about, and I guess it came out wrong. but thank you, I think I'm alittle emotional right now, you'll have to pardon me, and going back I realized I said things that I didn't trully believe, and was trying to help *sigh* but I don't know what I was thinking. Anyway, god bless, and thank you for understanding that it was a messed up post. :hug: thanks, bothering people really bothers me, expecially on accident. I'm not usually so un-articiualt in what I'm trying to say. But what's done is done, and I've learned from it.
(I'm done with my summer school, I passed. A's and B's for all quarters. Thanks. ) :) thanks again peace<3 |
SnowWolf ~ :congrat: on passing your summer school classes; that is awesome! Have a great weekend, sweetie ... :hug:
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Oh ,SnowWolf, Rosebud and Gary you three make me so proud to be in this group!
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BOOTSIE we are proud to have you here.
SNOW WOLF...You have done nothing wrong. Thank you for being a part of this thread! Great work at summer school. My wife finished her last class of teaching summer school today. |
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