i was born and raised and will die a roman catholic. i think that part of the reason people don't go to church is that they make other things a priority over going to church.

The biggest problem is that, for so many people who claim to be Christians, you really don't see much evidence of it in the way they live their lives. For example, I can't count the number of times I've been cut off in traffic by someone with a fish on their tailgate. Compare that to people who aren't religious but who are good because being good is the right thing to do, without pretense or a sense that they're better than others. I've been to plenty of churches, and there are good people who go there, but so many of them seem so wrapped up in their own thing that they don't seem to want to acknowledge that there's anything "unchristianlike" going on in the church or do anything about it. Politicians or people who are prominent in the community and say they're Christian are an example of that. They say or do mean things or cheat or lie or do something that, to me, is clearly morally objectionable, and yet they're still held up as wonderful people. I just don't get that. I know the whole drill of "Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven," but sometimes it seems like people use that as an excuse to not follow the very basic commandment of love. Or maybe people just don't get what it's all about, but they're so caught up in the trappings that they don't know it. At any rate, it's hard for me respect people who claim one set of values but embrace something completely different. It doesn't make them very enticing to be around.

If going to church helps someone be a better person, then I think that's great. But this is my honest answer about why I haven't felt the need to attend church in a long time. God is everywhere, and "church" happens on a daily basis throughout life, even seeing God through those who don't share my same beliefs.

I been there UFI, !

UFI & BOOTSIE ~ oh, I know exactly what you are talking about. I have actually had businessmen steal from me and then go to church to see them there; and one was in a high position in that church. We have to remember that some people go to church for other reasons than GOD -- some go there for social status, and some go there just for business connections and networking; kind of like a social-business club.

You could ask my DH how many times I have said to him -- some of these people think it's OK to "overtly" sin all week and that they can wipe it all clean just by going to church on Sunday. JESUS hated that kind of hypocrisy, and talked about it often.

It has taken some time, but I am trying to focus more on the benefits of going to a church of my choice; and I am trying not to let the things other people say and do interfere in my chance to enjoy going to church. I have decided to go when and if I want to, or feel up to it -- for our benefit, and not just becuz others think that we should go ...

It is sad, but true that not all of us have many choices to choose from; we live in a very small town, so we are limited. My DH decided to go back to his church and I go there with him now & then when I want to. On occasion, we may 'visit' another church of my choice for variety too.

UFI ...Thank you, I always enjoy your input.

I view things different from you sometimes :) When someone cuts me off, often here in southern California, I usually don't say "hey you Christian sticker...Rainbow sticker...democrat/republican sticker....world peace sticker...free Tibet sticker....you secular Person"...I usually say "why you idiot on your cell phone person!"...arrrghhhgghhh.

A true Christian knows that the way to heaven is not by "them being good"....yet we know that we are supposed to be good because that is what Christ asks of us. Yet when a Christian does sin...others like to point out that they did and shouldn't because they are Christians.

When I ask non-Christians if they are going to heaven, most (not all) say yes...when I ask why, they say because they are a good person.

Christians shouldn't use the "I'm forgiven and not perfect" excuse for sins...but then when we do we get tired of non-Christians pointing out our sins....for example...I have been known to cuss up a storm...very loudly!!! at work when I am PO'd....when I am done it doesn't take long for one of my guys to say..."Why are you yelling at us...I thought you were a Christian"..

since when did being a Christian not allow me to yell at my guys for being idiots! Especially since...being nice didn't work for the umpteenth time!

I have many reasons why I go to my church...here is one from today...it was a prayer in our bulletin for our service...

O Almighty and most merciful God, through Your great goodness, we pray that You keep us from all things that may hurt us, so that we may be ready in both body and soul to accomplish whatever things You want done in our lives, in our Church, and in our world; through Jesus Christ, Your Son, Our Lord, who lives and reigns with You and the Holy Spirit, one God, now and forever. Amen

If I wasn't there I would not have prayed that prayer. What I want in life is what He wants from me. I feel that when I am in church...I am closer to understanding that.

I go to church for me.

I am sorry for those that come upon you as hypocrites.

Some of my best friends are Christians...some of my best friends are not.

Some of the people I dislike the most are Christians...some are not.

I don't say "hey you rainbow sticker," unless it is something that directly is in opposition to what they have on their car, such as "respect others," because driving like a maniac isn't respecting others. To me, when a person claims to be a Christian, there's a certain expectation that they act the part. Driving in a way that could cause someone else to crash is just not a loving thing to do. Christianity, or whatever your religion, is a 24-7 thing. Sure, people mess up. But it's a lot easier to forgive mistakes when you see someone is really trying.

Aren't Christians supposed to be the light of the world? Isn't it reasonable to have a higher expectation of them because that is the path that they have chosen? I don't think it was mean to be bam, conversion, free ticket to Heaven, now resume your normal life.

Since the Bible says not to. Ephesians 4, verse 29 to the end, on through chapter 5, verse 4 ("nor should there be obscenity ...")

I don't mean to make you feel bad. I used to be a Bible studies teacher, many years ago. My point is: If you claim it, then own it. Really be responsible for your beliefs and what they mean in your life. Then, people will look at the way you act and know that there's something about you. They'll be drawn to it, as an ambassador of God to the world. At least, that's the way I believe it's supposed to work.

Oh Gary I bet when you started this thread you had know idea what a response you were going to get! Ha! Isn't it great!

In my experience , my church would not celebrate Jesus Birthday or Easter and it really bothered me because when they left church they would go home and celebrate. Had their houses decorated etc... I don't see it would hurt one bit to at least sing, Joy to the world or anything like that for Jesus Birthday but it was denied when a man asked to sing it, I just did not understand.

I was thinking about this thread and something UFI said last night. I think what matters is 'our intent' ... as a Christian (as a follower of Christ), I try my best to emulate his example; but I am still human. We must not forget that JESUS CHRIST was half human and half GOD; his biological father was the Holy Spirit, so he did have an advantage over us. We had two earthly, human, flawed parents, so our sinful nature becomes a greater stumbling block for us.

Paul talked about this -- how in his WILL (or heart's intent), he didn't want to sin, but the sinful nature of his flesh, fought him and continued to sin sometimes. We must not ever forget this fact -- ALL CHRISTIANS SIN! Only JESUS CHRIST and GOD can claim to be perfect. As the bible says, we are being transformed (all be it slowly) each day of our lives here.

Some people have a different idea of what a Christian is; so that could be part of the problem too. Some people believe that going to church makes them a Christian; but it does not. Being a good person is not enuff to make you a Christian either; that makes you a good person. You can be a good person, believe in GOD & JESUS, and be a Christian at the same time. A Christian is someone who follows the teachings of JESUS CHRIST and also commits his heart and mind and body and soul and life to Him, so that He can perfect us ... but the completion of that perfection won't happen until we die.

Since UFI is a former bible teacher, she would know this is what the bible says. And yes, you are right, we are not supposed to cuss or do anything that would harm anyone else, but I have to confess that even sweet, little ole me; if I am pushed to my brink with hurt and anger, have been known to cuss on a "few" occasions in my life, which I indelibly regret. I don't mean to, but out it comes, becuz I am human ... then I am so annoyed with myself that I immediately apologize to GOD and ask for HIS forgiveness; which I know HE grants, through the grace and work of HIS son, JESUS CHRIST.

UFI ~ you are right -- it is not bam, conversion, free ticket to heaven, then go and resume your regular life. It is REPENT (meaning change your mind and change your ways), conversion = commitment, forgiven by grace when we repent, correction, then every day do the best we can to live as good as we can, and grow and improve throughout our entire lives.

Now, I have seen the other side too -- where self-righteous, judgemental people figure it's their God-given right to point out everyone else's flaws BUT not their own. I will never be perfect on this earth; I know that, and I know my flaws already and I am working on them. I have changed over my life; I am getting better, but also I know that I will make mistakes tomorrow, so I am sure glad that I can count on the grace that is available to me and everyone else who takes advantage of that free gift from the LORD.

DEAR BROTHER GARY ~ I will be prayin' about that cussin' at your workers .... :nono: ;) and I know that you will try much harder next time. :hug:

You know, that is why we need to be reminded all the time, as the bible writers said; mankind is notorious for forgetting things and needs to be reminded of our misconduct, for reproof and correction, but it takes time too. No, we are not supposed to excuse ourselves, but we do have an Advocate in JESUS CHRIST, who died for our sins (of yesterday, today, and tomorrow) to take away the guilt and shame; and who will forgive us, and help us to improve ourselves by the power of His Holy Spirit, who is our teacher ...

BOOTSIE ~ the bible says that we can select a few celebrations each year of our choice. If you want to celebrate Christmas or Easter, that is quite OK. There are a few churches that choose not to celebrate in the traditional and very commercial ways, but other churches think it is just fine, or choose their own style. I would recommend that you pick a church that is more in tune with your beliefs.

So what are we saying? What is wrong with churches or what is wrong with Christians, who are the church? hmmm ... it's a little of both, I think! I found myself saying once that I thought I was cursed, and immediately, a thought came right back at me, like a boomerang -- ALL MANKIND IS CURSED! And, what is that curse? We are flawed. Not only us, but the earth and all that is in it -- it is the human condition.

So churches are flawed, becuz we are flawed; but thank GOD for His perfect Holy Spirit and His perfect Son, JESUS CHRIST, who is the head of the church. So let us march on, dear soldiers ... to the light of day, press on, press on, press on ... :hug:

PS ~ my DH just walked in and wanted to add his 2 cents to this discussion and it was a doozy. He says that people who say they don't want to go to church becuz someone said this or did that are using that as an EXCUSE not to go to church! Oh my, that is food for thought, now isn't it???:)

On the bumper sticker, it is wrong for everyone to drive recklessly, even if you have rude bumper sticker. But it is also additionally wrong for those who profess a certain belief to act in a way that is counter to that. Therefore, it is extra wrong for BOTH the unity sticker and the fish sticker people to drive recklessly. If someone has one of those mean little kid peeing on something stickers, then they're not violating the principles they're professing, so the only thing they're doing is being a reckless driver. People set the standards they are judged by, so to speak. If that makes sense.

I have often thought of that verse regarding people who claim to be what they're not. While people haven't told me in words that they expect they can be a Christian and continue on with their lives unchanged, they've said it in deeds. And that, to get back to your original question, is why I think some people don't go to church. They don't see any difference between Christians and nonchristians.

It crossed my mind that it may have come across that I was bragging by pointing out that I used to be a teacher, but what I meant in saying that was that might be the reason I was familiar with that verse when you might not be, so I didn't want you to feel bad. Sorry if that wasn't clear.

We're all works in progress, regardless of our beliefs. Some of us are just progressing in different directions. :) The goal is to have clear eyes to see where we need work and a willing heart to constantly strive. Not everyone does that.

? I know this is OT, and a short answer will be plenty, but I have never heard this. Where does the bible say that?

JULIE ~ bible.com :D

I searched for "celebration" and found nothing.

I didn't think that the Bible gave you choices on which things to believe or celebrate? I was raised in the church, taught Bible studies myself as a younger person, lived with pastors and deacons my whole life. I don't remember anything saying you can pick whether you choose to celebrate Christmas or Easter? Actual citation please. :)

Sorry Julie, quoted the wrong person, meant that for JustWant2BeHealthy. :)

JULIE and others ~ I was speaking of "holidays" in general (citing Christmas & Easter as examples only, to Bootsie about her question); and in the bible, holidays & celebrations of the day were often referred to as "Festivals" et al ... this verse says all that is needed really -- no one has the right to judge us on what festivals we want to celebrate ...

Colossians 2:16 (Whole Chapter in context) ... and specifically ~

"Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a *FESTIVAL* or a new moon or a Sabbath."


Thanks for the questions, ladies ... GOD BLESS YOU BOTH!

PS -- when I find the one I was referring to, I'll pass it on too; I'll keep my eyes open for it for you.

Justwant2Bhealthy,

Thank you. TBH, from what you said I would have never thought of this verse or really paraphrased it that way. But thanks. I was just confused by what you said. I never thought of the Bible as telling me or giving me permission to choose holidays. I think that's rather different than not being judged by what holidays you observe. But YMMM. Just threw me for a loop.

The Bible, such as in Matthew 6 and 23, defines hypocrites as those who portray themselves as righteous but who are not on the inside. It is not for me to say regarding you specifically. That is between you and God. How would you define it?

As far as one thing that would help someone spot a Christian, it would be someone who is clearly a follower of Christ. That sounds simplistic, but in reality it is very difficult and challenging. It isn't just one behavior, such as striving to act with wisdom or providing for those who need help or speaking with love instead of trying to stir someone else to feel bad. It's a whole and constant package of behaviors constantly compared against the measuring stick of love.

I think its easy to being a Christian too, just follow your heart in loving Jesus, Jesus is Amazing! We all make mistakes ,right, sometimes some real doozies right? Hey somewhere in the Bible some men asked Jesus how many times must I forgive , can anyone tell me where that passage is and what did Jesus say? I know it says that somewhere.....

BOOTSIE ~ You can find it in Matthew 18:21-22...

Here is an explanation from our synod's website ~ sorry for the length :)

Pentecost +17

"Sinning is easy, Forgiving is hard"

Genesis 50:15-21
Romans 14:5-9
Matthew 18:21-35
After hearing Jesus' method of restoring to friendship and fellowship someone who had sinned against him, Peter probably realized the implications of that restoration. As I said last week, Jesus cares about our relationships, and He wants us to be actively forgiving and loving each other. Peter knew that Jesus would have expectations of us beyond the strict interpretations of Old Testament law. If the law required forgiving three times, Peter guessed that Jesus might expect double that. He asked, "Lord, how many times shall I forgive my brother when he sins against me? Up to seven times?" Jesus probably floored him when He answered, "No, not seven times, but seventy times seven."

It is important to remember that Peter was just "plain old folks" like us. He was fully aware of how hard it is to forgive someone, even once! It has been observed that there is scarcely anything in life more difficult than this matter of asking, bestowing, and receiving forgiveness. The difficulty is not limited to the "bestowing." One of the things that keeps many people away from the Christian faith is the insistence of humans to stand on self-righteousness and reject Christ's forgiveness. Those who won't ask or receive it from Him certainly don't want it from each other.

Some translations and texts give Jesus' number as just 77 instead of 77 times seven. Either way, it is obvious that Jesus did not intend for us to keep a record of our forgiving and call a halt to it at offense number 78 or 491. It is also obvious that He linked our forgiveness from Him to the way we forgive each other. A pastor friend said, "We can stop forgiving when He does."

Jesus told a parable about a servant who owed millions of dollars to a king. He begged the king not to sell him, his wife and children into slavery, and he promised to pay back everything if the king would only be patient. The king had compassion, not just patience, and forgave him the entire debt. Shortly after that, the same man met a fellow servant who owed him a few dollars. The fellow servant begged him for patience but, unlike the king, he had neither patience nor compassion. He had the man jailed until his family would pay back the paltry debt. When the king heard about the incident, he immediately called the unforgiving rascal back in. The king was furious. He said, "You should have had mercy on your fellow servant, just as I had mercy on you." Then the king had the man jailed until the entire debt was paid.

Here is an interesting question: where was a servant to get the kind of money the first one owed to the king? The parable implies an impossible debt -- just as our debt to God is beyond our every means. The hard words of Jesus at the close of the parable ought to make us sit up and take notice: "That is how my Father in heaven will treat every one of you unless you forgive your brother from your heart." If you think forgiving is hard, try not being forgiven!

Forgiveness is never easy. People tend to overlook or ignore minor offenses -- not forgive them. Forgiveness is something else entirely. I once saw a large man at the back of an elevator smile genially when a smaller man in front of him apologized for stepping on his foot. At the next floor, more people got into the elevator, jostling the smaller fellow back and onto his neighbor's foot once more. This time the man at the back shoved the smaller one rather violently into the cluster of passengers. A woman let out a slight shriek. The smaller man and several other people got off the elevator immediately without saying a word. Those of us who remained also went to our desired floors in silence.

How many times have we heard, or said, "You have to draw the line someplace." It sounds so rational, natural, and even pious, but who says so? Who says that we are to measure offenses by either frequency or size? I can assure you that it wasn't Jesus. The parable seems to imply that the only thing that might be held against us is holding something against someone else! Two of the biggest pitfalls in human relations are that we often don't know when our words or deeds have hurt someone, and we just as often assume someone has said or done something to hurt us when they haven't at all. Either way, all we need is a little lack of communication to transform a mouse-sized misunderstanding into an elephant-sized problem.

It would be wonderful if we human beings could just learn to erase certain things from our memories. We need a "delete file" button of some kind. Lacking that, we could use some adult education about forgiveness. As little children, we confuse "getting off" or getting out of some punishment with forgiveness. We don't know the difference. We may think we "got off" because we put on our very best sad face, pleaded and begged. Consequently, we point to our behavior, not Mommy's mercy, as the reason we were not punished. That is why some adults don't know if they are "repentant enough" to receive God's forgiveness. Never think that God's forgiveness comes as a result of anything but His grace and mercy. If we think that He forgives us because we have put on the proper show of repentance, we are unbelievers -- trying to manipulate a god of our own making, by our behavior -- not trusting the steadfast love of the One True God.

Let there be no doubt that repentance has its place. In the most glaring example in all time of God's forgiveness, however, repentance came after the forgiveness. From the cross, Jesus prayed, "Father, forgive them; they don't know what they are doing." Was that prayer answered without any repentance from the perpetrators of the evil? Well, the hillside wasn't splattered with the blood of Roman officials and soldiers, Jewish priests, Pharisees and scribes, was it? No, only the blood of two thieves and the Son of God was shed on Golgotha!

All of mankind, not God, should have died that day. This was not a matter of someone stepping on the Father's toe in an elevator either. If we have to draw the line someplace, then humanity went over the line. But the Victim, not the murderers, got the death sentence. Take additional note that after the resurrection, Jesus still did not exact any retribution. He did not even visit Pilate, Herod, or Caiaphas to sing the children's song, "Nah, na-nah, na-nah, nah." God carries no grudges.

People carry grudges. In Robert Harling's play and movie, "Steel Magnolias," one of the characters says, "I'm not crazy -- I've just been in a bad mood for 40 years." I think I've met her. At least I've met men and women like her. They have a monkey on their backs far worse than drugs or alcohol. Unlike addiction, it is a monkey that will simply die and fall off if they just stop breathing life into it. To use another illustration, resentment is carried in a sack that would be invisible if it wasn't attached to the corners of the mouth. The more junk we throw into it, the more we frown and pout.

Did anything about Jesus' parable bother you? In addition to feeling very uncomfortable about having my forgiveness apparently depend on my forgiving, something bothered me. Didn't the king forgive the servant's debt of the millions? How could he just reinstate it when the man refused to forgive the fellow servant? I thought forgiveness meant forgotten-forever! It does.

One of the most difficult aspects of sharing the Gospel, whether across a backyard fence or across cultures, is that people prefer recognition to forgiveness. We trust our own accomplishments more than we trust God's grace. We want to pay our debts, not have them forgiven. We want to do enough good stuff that it outweighs the bad stuff. We want to deserve God's blessings and, arrogant as it might be, we think we can.

The issue in the parable is the same as in life -- just because God forgives does not mean we want the forgiveness. I believe that the first servant could not have experienced such profound forgiveness and remained unforgiving. He left the king, thinking that the king had done just as he had asked -- that the king would wait for him to pay the debt because he was "good for it." He was such a "good person" that the king could count on him to repay. The unbelievable arrogance of that is that the debt was too huge for him to ever repay.

The first servant apparently decided that his fellow servant was not a "good person." The fellow servant had to be jailed. The first one refused to be forgiven. Naturally, he refused to forgive. Maybe frowns and pouts come from two sacks, one on each corner of the mouth -- one filled with self-righteousness, the other with resentments. Both can be left at the foot of the cross. Jesus doesn't say it this time, but I will: "Those who have ears should listen."

Thank You so much Gary, I feel Jesus is smiling down at you today! I read every word and I took it too heart, thank you.
I do have to share this with you. last week I asked a question on here and I received the next day on God's Promises an answer to it! I find this strange but... Last night or early in this morning hours I asked this question and I receive Jesus sayings each morning and guess what i read from Jesus saying's this morning, I got so excited to share with you I forgot to read God's promise's this morning; This is what I received:

Luke 17:1-10
1) And he said to his disciples, " Temptations to sin are sure to come; but woe to him by whom they come! 2) It would be better for him if a millstone were hung round his neck and he were cast into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin. 3) Take heed to yourselves; if your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him; 4) and if he sins against you seven times in the day, and turns to you seven times, and says, `I repent,' you must forgive him. "
5) The apostles said to the Lord, "Increase our faith!" 6) And the Lord said, "font color="#CC0000"> If you had faith as a grain of mustard seed, you could say to this sycamore tree, `Be rooted up, and be planted in the sea,' and it would obey you. 7) " Will any one of you, who has a servant plowing or keeping sheep, say to him when he has come in from the field, `Come at once and sit down at table'? 8) Will he not rather say to him, `Prepare supper for me, and gird yourself and serve me, till I eat and drink; and afterward you shall eat and drink'? 9) Does he thank the servant because he did what was commanded? 10) So you also, when you have done all that is commanded you, say, `We are unworthy servants; we have only done what was our duty

I go to church and even teach Sunday School (my children range in age from 3 to 14) and I love it. Although the Bible says that where two or more are gathered in my name I shall be among them, it's important to be in a church setting because it allows you to grow and be among others who share the love of the Lord. I do think that alot of churches today are suffering. So many are closing their doors due to low attendance and/or financial problems. I think that alot of the problem is because so many "christians" are caught up in the world and are turning their backs on what the Bible teaches. Another thing is that there are alot of preachers who won't preach on things that in today's world they should - like the Second Coming of Christ - which I LOVE prophecy teachings. Preachers seem to be more concerned with stepping on a few toes than preaching the gospel. I love my church and everyone it. I believe in the Rapture and I believe that we are on the threshold of his return. Amen and Amen!

I would also like to add that I have been in churches where there has been things go on that wasn't very christian like. For me, the bottom line is that I don't get involved in things that have nothing to do with. Why would I allow a tiff between a few people that suddenly the church is abuzz about bother me - it has nothing to do with me. I go to church for me and to be closer with God - I'm not there for anyone else. You don't have to go to church to have a relationship with God. Remember: it's not a religion, it's a relationship!

I used to go to church all the time as I was raised Evangelical.. These days I am very cynical, but can't entirely put my finger on why. Perhaps partially because my father was extremely "religious" about making us go to church. He'd say things about people like, "If a person doesn't go to church, there's the question if they're really saved." He'd also get irate at people on the golf course on the way to church and say they were stupid for 'worshiping' golf on Sunday mornings. :lol: He made it very miserable for all of us kids (my mother rarely went) and we had to go 2x a week even when we were sick. That's most of what I remember.. just going to early service every week just to earn some imaginary badge.. Then going home yelling at people for being such stupid idiots. I guess that explains where a lot of my cynicism comes from..!

These days I have other reasons why I wouldn't go. First, I'm not Christian so there wouldn't be a point.. :lol3: But there's also this thing I was taught so much as a child about how our faith needs bolstering by others of the same faith. That just seems irrational and based on fear to me now. If you need others to keep you believing, is it really something you want to believe? I don't know.. Another thing that seriously hinders me is all the patriarchal language I hear in Christian churches. :halfempty I understand it's a theological difference, but I'm really shocked these days every time I hear a male pronoun used referring to god. I'm just not used to it at all. (Again, I've heard all the apologetics, so I don't want to get an earful!) I think I would like to visit a Unitarian congregation someday though, to see what it's like.. I still don't want to fall into needing others to keep me believing things that I may naturally grow out of on my own. I guess that's just my fear.

Hi FRIGG

A couple of things I can tell you for a fact...

#1 My kids and nephew where in Minnesota 2 weeks ago for a family reunion with my ex-wife (New Ulm to Minneapolis)

#2 My (NAVY) nephew is there at this very moment...as he called me 15 minutes ago to say he made it safe to his girlfriend's house...

#3 You have a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. It isn't about ANYONE else....just you and Him.

#4 Sometimes I go for walks on Sunday with my wife and mutts...we usually have gone to church Saturday night when that happens....I go to church because I have been blessed with the wonderful opportunity to do so....it isn't always on Sunday morning though.

Thanks for stopping by!

I wouldn't say that I think anything is "wrong" with churches, but with some of the people who end up there. Since it's a little difficult to explain, I will just share my experience.
I've grown up in church... My family and I went to one from when I was about 5 or 6 until I was a sophomore in high school. Just before I got to high school, my parents began having marital problems. They weren't taking the easy way out (divorce) and instead went to counseling to work things out. They chose to get Christian counseling from one of the church pastors who had known our family a long time. Long story short, although he promised secrecy of these issues, somehow other pastors knew what was going on. It just so happens I went to school with one of their children. Next thing I knew, words were being said at my school, by this boy of very personal information about my family and parents. Shortly thereafter, we stopped going. Unfortunately it ended up we stopped altogether. During my senior year of high school, my parents split. I chose to repair my idea of church and what confidence means and went to a Christian college. The church on campus was AMAZING and helped me find my way back to faith. Now my husband and I are blessed to have found a wonderful church where we live that we really love. I am glad we've gone down the right path, but I hate to think of those others who saw the corruption in the church that I spent most of my growing up in. It's sad, really and I wish I knew who those people were so I could reach out and let them know that not every church is like that. However, I know there will be some people we won't reach. I just wish the pastors realized what they were really doing back then...

frigg -just saw your post. You mentioned unitarian... Have you by chance gone to a non-denominational church? I go to one and I love it. I went to Harvest (evangelical - the one who puts on the Harvest Crusades) and it just didn't fit for me. My college church was an Assemblies of God church, if you've been to one of those. Oh and if it were closer (it's an hour and half away with Sunday morning service at 7am) my husband's and my favorite church is a Congregational church. Just thought I'd mention...

Thank you for your post STARGZR...

if you were more "south" towards North San Diego County you could visit my church!

We just started a new church that seems to have a wonderful mixture of people. We've usually turned away from churches because either they weren't diverse or it was more abot what you wore and what you had.

I hope your new church is a blessing for you BLISS!

tithing
 

One thing in my experience to always be true is that when I tithe, God gives it back. I never want for anything. Now, I am most certainly not saying I live in any kind of luxury, but I'm very very much content with what I have. (which is more than can be said for lots of people I know who have multiple vacation houses, $60,000 cars and wear $400 shoes...)Yanoo, sometimes 10% of our income can be a huge amount of money when you're thinking of giving it away--especially when you're living paycheck to paycheck. I firmly believe that when one gives back to God with a good heart, it's given back. Just my experience.

WOW, excellent thread, Gary!! :D

I was raised Catholic. My mother was (and is) a woman who I perceived to be very religious. I went to Catholic elementary school, Sunday school, and when I was 14, I got confirmed. I got the highest score on the confirmation exam, too, thanks to my upbringing; I didn't have to study because my mother never missed a chance to teach me all about the catechism of the Catholic church!

I did not take my faith seriously, at all. I would try to fall asleep during the homily and end up staring at the nearest attractive person's rear end. I thought religion was a joke and tried to back out of going to church as much as I could. I knew that as soon as I moved out of my parents' house, I would never go to church again. Heck, I had a band once (well, more than once, but yeeeeah...) and wrote a song called "We're Not Going to Church" which was about sex in church! I'd post the lyrics, but they were FAR too explicit for ANY part of this site :lol:

Why did I feel this way? Well, for one, the church was always on such a moral crusade yet the pastor at the time took a mysterious leave of absense. Later, it was discovered that he was doing couples' counseling, had an affair with the wife, and ran away to Georgia with her after knocking her up. Several other priests in the diocese got exposed for having homosexual sex, while others molested children, others had huge porn collections, others were stealing from the church's collection, and others were making sexual advances towards unexpecting women. I thought it was so hypocritical that these so-called leaders in Christ's image were preaching against all these things yet doing them behind our backs.

The congregation of the church I grew up in was full of snobby, judgmental people. I was afraid to be myself or talk about my life because I was scared they would shun me, tell me I was a big sinner just for letting one little word slip out, or inform me they believed I was doomed to roast in the fires of Gehenna. This holier-than-thou pretention made me want to vomit... and likewise caused me to believe religion must not be for me.

I felt faith contradicted science, too. It is much easier to use "logic-based" arguments than it is to use faith-based ones, unless you have VERY deep knowledge of your faith. At the time, I did not; I was a "realistic" person, so of course, I didn't believe in "that crap." I thought "something" was out there; I just didn't know what. However, science had its loop holes. NO philosopher, scientist, or profound athiest was ever able to explain HOW the world got created. Big Bang Theory? PLEASE. If there WAS a big bang, where did it come from? I believe science and Genesis mesh together quite nicely if you read it carefully; the time span of seven days is a matter of perspective -- DAYS could be millions of years by our current standards.

If I were to go into the details of my spiritual journey, I would be capable of typing a novella. The best way I can sum it up is that I had a change of heart. If I was going through a really tough time -- usually a struggle or scare with my health or a moment of being VERY broke -- I would ask God to help me. If someone I loved was going through something tragic, I would pray for that person. If life was going extraordinarily WELL, I would thank God, too, BUT during my every day, normal life, I never thought of Him and I still believed "God" was just... "something out there."

...fast forward to November 2008: I knew I was going to end my 3.5 year relationship. I was miserable. I didn't ask God to help me end it, though once I DID break it off, I asked God to help me cope. I started praying all the time. I remember going on this really long bike ride in nature where my cell phone lost reception and the only things around were trees, skies, and wide open spaces. I gave God all my cerebral diarrhea and God gave me a feeling of peace. I felt that whatever I was going through would pass. A couple days later, I went to church for the first time in almost five years. I went to a church called St. Augustine, which I passed so many times on my way to other things. Before attending, I didn't know if church would be "for me" or if I was going to make a habit of going; I just decided to give it a try.

And it was beautiful. For the first time, I GOT IT. I paid attention, participated, and thanked God for giving me the change of heart to DO IT. I continued going, registered, started reading, studying, and understanding the Bible, spoke with several religious leaders about the questions I had regarding my faith, became familiar in a way which I could become an apologist and teach others, then answered an ad in the bulletin to be a volunteer with the youth ministry. After all I'd been through, I had quite a story which I was eager to share! I still volunteer with the youth ministry and have done so much -- I'm actually one of the people largely in charge of the whole thing now! :)

On top of that, I went to several retreats and became unashamed to give God ALL of me. I felt like it made me a lunatic at first to allow God to speak to me (NOT in the "hearing voices" sense -- it's an instinct one picks up on when he or she is receptive to the Lord), but I slowly let it happen. Now, I let the Lord give me guidance on life, which has helped me tremendously. I allow God to help me cope. I fully embrace Him and all He has done for me. Going to church is one way I can celebrate my faith -- one of the most important -- and church activities are another.

Getting involved with this particular church is one of the best things I've ever done for myself.I go to church because Christ's divine presence is there in such a special way... AND I go for the fellowship... I am a very social person, so it is essential for me to be around those who also value their faith! I am thankful every day that I found a DIVERSE church with interesting, open-minded people -- if I didn't, I'm sure I would still be faithless.

Thank you for sharing your post SHANE on how you decided to get past the sins of humans and get to the Word of Christ, with God's help.

I have seen too many times how people have used those same reasons to not go to church.....thus never being able to see what God's Word says to them.

I pray you have many more blessings in your quest to lead those youth!

Oh Shane, thank you so much for sharing your story. There is a new church that has started up in our community, maybe it's for me. Wouldn't hurt to check it out!

This is a truly fantastic thread, I personally have had a long journey with the church.
I am from Northern Ireland, which is divided by church's, if you are a protestant or catholic( in NI all religions are broken down into 2 groups catholic and protestant, if you choose to say you are neither on equal opportunity forms, then the school you went to or the area you live is used to decide what religion you are!), despite the peace the divisions are very real and there is still voilence

I have grown up hearing stories of how church's hid murderers and seeing minsters refuse to condemn the deaths off innocents because they were soldiers/police etc. How Church's were used to plan terrorist attacks that killed and destroyed our country. I have been spat at by "men off the cloth" because off my religion.

There is a real lack off true Christan's, oh EVERYONE goes too church because thats what has always been done, but they go for reasons that are far removed from Christ.
Despite this my parents brought me up to understand that my relationship with God was one that was separate to the physical church. The church could be my family but as with all families sometimes we would lose our way, and thats when we should look to Christ to help us. Never to put my faith in the church ONLY in God.

Very wise parents! Great words of wisdom KboP :)

I find it very interesting, and perhaps fortuitous, that I found this thread.

I have recently been contemplating trying church again. The contemplation has been long, tedious, and emotional for me. In order for you to understand this, you must have some of my background, so please bear with me.

I grew up with a mother who tried very hard to raise us to believe in God and Jesus. We went to church peiodically. As time went on we went less and less. These decisions to attend or not were led mostly by my mother. In my adult years I came to find out that she had suffered a crisis of faith and felt very much like she was pretending and therefore lived with a lot of guilt.

Eventually we were going on holidays only. My Sunday School experience was limited and spotty. In my teen years I felt a NEED to be involved in a church. I tried many many churches. None seemed to fit. I settled in at a church that one of my friends went to, but I was uncomfortable with what I like to refer to as public displays of religion.

I've always prayed. But it was my relationship with God and Jesus not to be encroached upon by the eyes and ears of others. I found seeing other people publicly let go emotionally while providing testimony to be uncomfortable for me. I certainly couldn't do it myself. It was too personal.

I also found it distasteful to ask people to create legislation on a city, state, or national level that made Christian based morality legal while making what I saw as personal choices illegal.

I couldn't do it anymore. Combine that with the hipocricy that others have mentioned, and the judgmental nature of many that I encountered, and I found myself judging my fellow Christians and I didn't like the angst that it created in me.

Flash forward 15 years (oh my word--has it been that long???). I am in a place of contentment with my life. My husband and I are just around the corner from trying for a child. And this makes me come back to that NEED that I felt as a teenager. This time it's not so much a need to belong to a church, but to have a greater spiritual life. I doubt I'll ever be one to be completely comfortable with those PDRs, but I don't want my child to grow up in a spiritual vaccuum. I want my child to understand belief and faith. And I want to raise him/her in a community of people who find faith and belief to be a positive thing.

The thing is that I'm like a woman who has had bad relationships--I'm gun shy. I don't know how to find a church that I will feel comfortable in, and I don't know how to make the transition myself.

Any suggestions are welcome.

Eumie, when I think of finding a church again, I find myself much more attracted to and comfortable with a more liturgical style (I was thinking Episcopal) for all the reasons you said.

I actually believe in the Unitarian Universalist way more than any other. The churches in my areas however aren't very "family" oriented it seems--more couples and singles. The idealogy of them can be quite confusing to a child which is why we don't go. My kids do go to church camp though and a Methodist church on Easter and Christmas. That's gotta count for something.