Just a thought about this sentiment:

What about all the immigrants in the US who celebrate Independence Day. Are they allowed to say they celebrate the 4th if they're not American citizens? I mean, it's ok to get together with your friends or family, but don't you dare say you're celebrating Independence if you're not "one of us" (i.e. an American).

Seriously. That's just silly. :)

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Maybe I'm just over tolerant, but as long as people aren't hurting others it doesn't matter what you believe!!! When you actually take someone elses, space and botch it up then it is all our problem...Live and let live...be happy, and respect each other and the world would be a much better and safer place to be.

If someone is an immigrant who is working toward being an American Citizen or who is an American Citizen, I think it's awesome that they celebrate Independence Day. It might mean more ( or at least different ) to someone who has seen the other side, and wasn't born here.

But I think that Illegal immigrants shouldn't celebrate Independence day if they have no plan of becoming citizens or going through the process to be legally here.I don't think they should have the same rights as Americans. The word here is Illegal.

i use the term "Xmas" because the day is not about Christ to me. it is about family, food, friends, presents, being together, and having a good time. there's a really good Futurama episode about Xmas, and how Santa Claus is a giant murdering robot. i highly recommend it.

also, i celebrated the day yesterday with my boyfriend's family... we said "Merry Christmas" to each other and ate Christmas dinner and had a Christmas tree... but i'm agnostic (as is my boyfriend), and his family is best described as "Christian-flavored." should we have called it a "winter get-together"?

i'm confused about this 4th of July thing... are we going to start going around asking people at parades if they intend on becoming citizens? who would we even ask? would we start with non-white people, even though there are PLENTY of illegal immigrants who are white? "no sir, you can only watch the parade and eat barbecue if you plan on taking the citizenship test."

holidays don't mean very much anymore because of consumerism and the times we live in. the malls opened today at 6am so people could take advantage of sales and make up for the shopping they missed yesterday.

Have you ever gone to your local Mexican restaurant and had a margarita on Cinco de Mayo?

So wait ... am I getting this right then .. having a party, watching fireworks, grilling dogs and burgers, and enjoying the company of your friends and family is a "right" that you have to be an American to have?

I'm not sure I like the spin this thread is taking.

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My personal belief is that, because no one can "own" a day or the actions of others, all we can do is control how *we* celebrate a particular holiday. I believe it crosses a line when we start telling others how *they* can celebrate something. As long as it doesn't cause harm (and I'm not sure how the goodwill, celebration, etc. of a holiday celebration could cause harm), how does one justify saying what another person can do on a particular day?

Your decision on how to celebrate might include not attending a holiday celebration at the home of a non-Christian, and that's reasonable if you feel like the celebration isn't in the spirit of your holiday. But it crosses a line to tell someone that not only will you not come to the party, but they can't throw it at all because it isn't the kind of party you'd like to go to.

Just a point of fact here regarding immigration. Besides being a civil rights and anti-discrimination lawyer, I also did a lot of pro bono work as an immigration attorney. Anyone who uses the phrase "illegal alien" is not, in fact, correct in their terminology. To be in this country without proper documentation is not illegal. At least not in the sense that such immigrants are considered to be partaking in a criminalized behavior -- unless of course they have a "criminal history." That kicks up the stakes a bit and puts a different spin on the situation. In most cases, however, immigration is an administrative process...like licensing your vehicle or getting a permit to remodel your house...only on the federal level. Under federal law, deportation is not considered a "punishment". It is, instead, an administrative procedure. So most of the people who came here outside of the proper channels are "undocumented immigrants" not "illegal immigrants" or "illegal aliens".

In fact, if it was deemed a criminal behavior, in some ways that would be better for the alien. It would mean that they were entitled to the consitutional protections that those in our criminal court systems are entitled to -- such as an actual trial or basic criminal due process. In fact, they aren't entitled to those things. Often, they are not even entitled to an administrative hearing. Which is why I have had clients flown out of the country at 1:00 am and denied their requests to contact me or their families. Which is why people brought here as infants by their parents can be taken away from everything they have ever known and dumped across the border in a country where they know no one and they do not even speak the language. They have no "right to counsel" and have to somehow try to pay for it out of pocket or try to get help from a private, very over-worked legal aide organization. It is why things like "hearsay" can be, and often are, used by immigration courts to make their determinations.

This is an interesting thread.

I can't say as I have had a margarita in a Mexican restaurant on the 5th of May but I did have a Budweiser in one yesterday on Christmas. Our favorite place just happened to be open...as the owner had mentioned to us the week before.

I work with many men that do not have proper identification. Most of them are good hard working men that want nothing more than to have a decent life. Many of them have been to my home.

I will also tell you very-very few of them have even a clue what the 4th of July means to me. If you ask them about it the answer usually comes back "fireworks"

I don't think it is a secret the point Optical Goddess was trying to make. It wasn't a post about humanity.

Schumeany most of these men have openly admitted their paperwork is not legal. I have even had 2 guys give me 2 different SS# to hand into my office. As you know, as these men get "discovered" they are let go. Does this act make them illegal?

If you don't celebrate the birth of Christ, as a Christian, then you do not celebrate Christmas. You can exchange gifts, have parties, go to a movie....anything you want to. All fine things. It just isn't Christmas.

It used to bother me when people used an X instead of Christ in Christmas. It doesn't anymore. I understand that not all will be believers in Him. I also want to assure Painted Lady that I mean no disrespect to you for the X, I admire you for standing up for your beliefs and I always enjoy your thoughts. I also agree that many holidays have lost meaning because of commercialism and X's ;)

It absolutely is Christmas. Complete with a Christmas tree, Christmas presents, and Christmas dinner. Sorry if you don't like it or if anyone else doesn't like it, but celebrating a secular Christmas is part of my CULTURAL history. I'm not going to change my culture to accommodate anyone's religious beliefs.

And I wish more Christians would learn their OWN history before they get all offended about things. The use of X as a substitute for "Christ" in Christmas, Christian, etc., was actually COINED BY EARLY GREEK CHRISTIANS. The "x" shape character is the "chi" in written Greek, which is the first letter of the Greek word for Christ. In a lot of early Greek texts the letter is used as an abbreviation for "Christos" or "Christ". Many early Christians used the abbreviation XP to describe THEMSELVES.

And in fact the labarum, the x/p superimposed on each other, is a common symbol for Christ in a whole bunch of Orthodox churches.

It isn't a way to take "Christ out of Christmas" and any non-Christian who uses it as such is actually just reinforcing the origins of the Greek form of "Christ".

Edited: I had to go find the Greek letters online ... but the Greek word for Christ is written like this: Χριστός
And the labarum, for those who aren't familiar with the word but probably will recognize the symbol, is here:
http://www.tattoosymbol.com/religious/labarum.jpg


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It's obvious my POV is very unpopular, and I don't think I can successfully defend my thoughts or articulate them in a way that everyone would understand.

I have expressed my beliefs, I stand by them. This is what I think. I never said I would go out and interrogate people about thier citizenship status or thier spiritual beliefs. It's just what I think. I never said I'd tell people they couldn't celebrate the holidays. I never anything about race. At all.

While I am supposed to be tolerant of all that is around me, no one is tolerant of my POV. It's fine as long as I feel the same as everyone else.

For that, I'm taking out the odd element, and bowing out of this discussion, taking away the 'bad direction' this discussion is taking.

hear hear, PhotoChick!

Yes, EZ. If they are committing fraud, that is a criminal behavior. But that just makes them undocumented aliens who broke a US criminal law -- and they could be tried for the fraud. Of course, it has also been written into the immigration code that past criminal behavior, such as SS fraud, can be used as a basis for not granting a change in their immigration status. None of this, however, provides a basis for linking "illegal" to the front of "immigrant". Undocumented immigrants can do illegal things just like you or I could do illegal things -- such as commit fraud, but their basic status, living here in this country without the proper documentation, is not "illegal". That was my original point.

Thanks SCHUMEANY...that is what I wanted to know, if they were illegal because of fraud. Now another question if they came across the border, as in over a fence and not through a check-point...is this a crime?

Thanks for the input Photochick