"Christmas" is a word. You cannot own a word. You can own your own feelings surrounding words, but not someone else's. That is the basis of freedom.

EZ, the answer to your question regarding crossing the border without entering through a checkpoint may have changed in the last few years since 9/11. It did not used to be classified as criminal behavior, but I am not sure about its status now -- I have not practiced immigration law in a while, and while I try to keep up to some extent because it interests me, I do not know everything. *sigh* If it is considered criminal now, the undocumented alien would have committed a violation of a US criminal statute...but it would be equally illegal for a US citizen to cross the border without stopping at the checkpoints. Which gets us back to my original point. Just being here without documentation does not make you an "illegal alien". How you got here might weigh against you in the administrative procedure because of how it effects your "criminal history", but not the basic fact that you are here.

Thanks Schumeany....I don't think it really matters much anymore how one got here.

I am working with a gentleman now that is the only one in his family of 5 that is not a legal resident of California. He has 2 older sisters and one brother, one sister younger....all born here. He was not.

His mother was murdered by his father when he was a teen-ager....got into trouble with drugs....served time. A great guy today, 17 years later. But always on the run....sad.

EZ, I could tell you twenty stories as bad as his or worse. Being the only one in your family without proper status, for one reason or another, is pretty common. It is also pretty common to find out as an adult that you don't have proper status...because your parents lied to you or they simply did not understand all the steps of a very complicated process themselves. In some cases, those are the saddest situations. Imagine believing your whole life you were a US Citizen, and then having the Immigration Service show up on your doorstep one day and place you into custody and then fly you to some country that you have never been to in your life...and leave you there with no money and no connections. It would be terrifying.

That's what makes discussing the "situation" so hard SCHU....trying to separate humanity from laws and the expense of the "situation".

Thank you for your help.

And yes there are many more stories, I have several guys I work with with situations that scare them each and every day. Great guys but caught up in the "buy...buy...buy" of the world today, the collapse of their dreams of homes....high debt... and nowhere to go....papers not legal...companies refusing to hire them anymore because of the crime of hiring "illegal" workers....sad. Going "back" is NOT an option for many of them....staying here is becoming more difficult.

Originally Posted by bopeep:
So apparently, I can't have people over for tasty food and drink right now, because I am an atheist!?! :?: :mad:

I was told this on another forum - that I have no right to have a good time during this religious holiday. Because I am a true atheist, and not just agnostic, I should not have anything to do with any merry-making for the next week or so. And you know what really got me steamed? The person that said this is a Xmas and easter only church go-er!!! :censored:

None of my friends are practicing Xtians. A couple are practicing jews, one is a shinto follower, another a buddhist, two are pagans, and the rest are nothing in particular (agnostics), or are lapsed catholics. There is no particular religious overtone to *any* gathering I host.

I like being with friends and having a good evening. I like cooking and hosting big fancy dinners for people. I like giving gifts that make people happy. Why do I have to believe there is some dude/chick in the sky in order to do this sort of stuff right now? We don't have a tree, or lights, or giant snowmen or santas up. We don't give gifts on the 25th - before or after, but not on the 25th, and we don't have a xmas dinner on the 25th. So what the heck is the problem with these people?

This isn't the first time I have encountered this attitude, but for some reason, it really ticked me off this time. I don't understand why it's so hard to be tolerant of other's beliefs. :(

I'm off to have a very un-Xmassy mai-tai and hit the tub with a good book! :D Bah humbug! :devil:

BP

I guess what I don't understand is why do you care what this person thinks? Some cyber message board groupie shouldn't have that much control over you. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main principals of atheism is that one has no belief in a "god" or power greater than themselves. I would venture to say that you are giving into a higher power if you allow comments about Christmas or anything else for that matter to offend you.

Originally Posted by :
I would venture to say that you are giving into a higher power if you allow comments about Christmas or anything else for that matter to offend you.

Being offended by ignorance and intolerance means you're "giving in to a higher power"? Could you explain that further?

I am quite annoyed at the repeated expressions of "why do you care" that keeps being thrown out there.

Let me ask this: If someone came here and said "on another board someone told me I didn't have a right to eat holiday food because I'm fat" everyone on this board would be up in arms ... giving support and comfort and telling the OP that she should be strong and ignore those who are clueless and ignorant. But because someone is annoyed or upset because she was slammed for her atheism, then she is instead given various versions of "why do you care" and "it's your problem" and "it's just a message board".

So is support here only for those who believe in some god or gods? Or is it for everyone, regardless of their religious choices?

.

PhotoChick.... I had the same ideas in my head, and wanted to post them, but I didn't know how to word it. You can express yourself so well!

So yeh, what she said.

PhotoChick - If I had a dollar for every time I had to explain that the use of X for Christ is as old as Christianity itself, I'd be rich!! :lol: Another one I have to explain a lot is that the Immaculate Conception refers to Mary's conception, not Jesus' conception. I'm not very familiar with most American Protestant denominations, but it seems they aren't teaching the history of Christianity as much as they ought to...

Optical Goddess - I don't understand why you would want to deny any celebration to anyone? That seems just plain mean spirited. I understand you take pride in certain things you feel are important to you, but my natural thought would be to share them. One time I visited the US on the 4th of July, and I was invited to participate in your holiday. I'm not an American, nor will I ever be, but I enjoyed the traditional barbeque and fireworks - I was made to feel very welcome by the Americans I was with and I left with a great opinion of them. No one said "Go away, this is my holiday and not yours". You are always welcome to your opinion (and I would never say everyone should have the same opinion - that gets boring fast...), but to use it to try to deny something to someone else that wants to participate is unfair.

If we look at our lives carefully, we'll see a huge portion of what we do is a taken from somewhere else. I recently started belly dancing, but I'm not from the Middle East. Anyone do yoga? That's got some serious roots in Indian practices. What about katate? Judo? Anyone like French cinema? Italian opera? Sushi? Tacos? We all share and participate in things that come from somewhere else. It's one of the great things in life - sharing and exchanging ideas and practices.

And I would loooove to be able to go to a local Mexican restaurant for a margarita on Cinco de Mayo, but we don't have very many Mexican Restaurants here in Montreal, and the few that do exist can't make a decent margarita to save their lives.

BP

Originally Posted by :
I'm not very familiar with most American Protestant denominations, but it seems they aren't teaching the history of Christianity as much as they ought to...

Hardly at all. It's kind of sad really. I grew up Catholic and then in high school I began going to an independent Baptist church (mom was Catholic, dad was Southern Baptist - an odd combination). In college I found a better balance in the Episcopal church and, as of right now I'm still a registered, baptized member of the Anglican Communion, although I don't attend church. I do find the ritual to be beautiful and oddly comforting at times, but that's more about the sense of tradition and childhood comfort, I think.

I don't believe any more (and i don't really care to get in depth into my belief system on a public board for reasons you probably can relate to! :) ), but I do think my personal experience both in and out of the various denominations gives me a pretty interesting perspective.

Combine that with my degree in History and my passion for social and cultural history ... religion in all it's forms fascinates me.

All of that to say, that no, most American denominations have no clue about the history of their various belief systems. Most of them have no idea about the various shades of meaning in the original texts of the Bible and have no idea HOW the translations of the texts they use to substantiate their faith came about. Christianity is one of the only religions I know of where the faithful aren't expected to read their religious texts in the original forms and to understand the history of their faith.

Oh and the thing about the Immaculate Conception makes me crazy. ;)


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Oh and about denying the celebration ... it seems to me that attitude is the very opposite of what a real Christian attitude would be. I would think that encouraging people to celebrate the day and using it as a jumping off point to share your faith with them would be much more effective than pointing fingers and crying "you can't play in this sandbox because you don't believe what I do".

I dunno. Color me crazy, but I don't believe the Jesus of the Bible would tell anyone that they couldn't celebrate "his" day because they didn't believe in him.

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Originally Posted by Lori Bell:
I guess what I don't understand is why do you care what this person thinks?

Because it is wrong to tell me that I cannot have friends over for dinner at this time of year. If this was one singel person that had said this, I might not be as bothered by it, but it is an attitude I have encountered *many* times.

Originally Posted by :
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the main principals of atheism is that one has no belief in a "god" or power greater than themselves. I would venture to say that you are giving into a higher power if you allow comments about Christmas or anything else for that matter to offend you.

I'm sorry, but this doesn't make any sense. I am supposed to stifle my emotions and feelings because I am an atheist? Am I not allowed to be happy either?

An individual's comments *will* have the power to irritate or upset me if they attempt to infringe or deny me something I believe is important. That's life - we all get upset at comments sometimes. I have feelings and emotions, and denying them is unhealthy. When someone tells me I'm fat, I get upset because my feelings are hurt. I might try to deny it or shrug it off, but I *will* be bothered to some degree by it. When someone tells me *I* can't have a dinner party because *they* are having a religious celebration, I am upset by that.

I'm human, and I feel, just like everyone else.


BP

PhotoChick - Catholic, Anglican and Scottish Presbyterian were the big ones where I grew up, and they are all BIG on history. Like all denominations, they all have their opinion on why their version of Christianity and the bible are the 'true' version, but those big ones all insist on drumming their histories and theologies into their parishioner's heads! :lol:

I'm also a history fan, and a history of religion fan (re-reading Josephus' 'Antiquities of the Jews' right now actually (translated of course - I can't read Ancient Greek :D), so I often find myself having to explain what the origin or meaning of some practice is. :dizzy: I've not ever formally studdied these things - I just find them fascinating.

BP

Shumeany said:

Originally Posted by :
Recognize that some people's five-year-old never grows up. But those people, as long as they are given no real world power, are harmless...except in as much as you let them personally hurt your feelings or offend you

Bopeep, what Shumeany said here is the key to this whole thing. If you let what people say to you have power over you, then they win. You have absolute control of how you let others affect you. If you don't believe what they say, then those words should hold no power over your feelings. (unless you let them).

I too am an atheist and I love parts of Christmas (good will and peace on earth, sharing good times and food with family and friends, and the bright lights and glitter), and hate parts of it (the commercialism). It will always be Christmas to me.

There is nothing religious about a Christmas tree, exchanging gifts, cooking a meal, or having friends over. So to do any of those things does not mean you are celebrating Christ's birth...just that you are celebrating a secular holiday that is most likely a family tradition. And a lovely one at that.


Optical Goddess said:

Originally Posted by :
while no one wants me to say "Merry Christmas" because it's offensive, I'm also not going to say 'Happy Holidays" to avoid offending people either.

I have no problem with people saying Merry Christmas. And I think it's silly to say happy holiday to make sure you don't offend someone, so feel free to express it any way you like. :D

Originally Posted by :
Atheists feel slighted because it's Christmas, the whole Christ thing, but Christians are villified for protecting what we see as the reverence of the day.

I don't feel slighted at all. I love the holiday and the feelings of warmth and cheer. The fact that it's a secular holiday to me and a religious one to you is fine with me.

Originally Posted by :
Totally unrelated to the discussion, but could someone please tell me why people use "XMas", or "Xtians", why is "Christ" substituted with an X?

As a kid I used to write xmas, because it was easier and I was lazy, and I was a Christian at the time, so I would not have meant it to be an offense to Christ. It doesn't mean a thing to me except as an abbreviation for the day, just like I often write bday for birthday.

Schumeany said:

Originally Posted by :
Besides being a civil rights and anti-discrimination lawyer

I knew there was a reason I liked you! :lol:

Originally Posted by :
It absolutely is Christmas. Complete with a Christmas tree, Christmas presents, and Christmas dinner. Sorry if you don't like it or if anyone else doesn't like it, but celebrating a secular Christmas is part of my CULTURAL history.

Exactly!

Originally Posted by :
I have expressed my beliefs, I stand by them. This is what I think.

While I am supposed to be tolerant of all that is around me, no one is tolerant of my POV. It's fine as long as I feel the same as everyone else.

Optical Goddess, I'm not sure I'm understanding your comment. You are not being intolerant when you disagree with some of the people here, yet you think they are being intolerant when they don't agree with what you say? No need to bow out. Just understand that some of us are no more inclined to agree to your beliefs than you are to ours.

Originally Posted by :
An individual's comments *will* have the power to irritate or upset me if they attempt to infringe or deny me something I believe is important.

Bopeep, no one has the power to deny you the right to celebrate Christmas. Their words have no power over your actions. The only power anyone has over your feelings are you. I understand your idealism, but why not just stand up for your beliefs and state them proudly, and accept that others have the right to state their beliefs too, as Optical Goddess has done here. If you are not ashamed of your beliefs and feelings there is no reason to feel defensive (or angry).

Well- I celebrated Christmas yesterday with my husbands family- some Christians, some agnostics, a pagan, a Buddhist, and some athiests. We had a christmas tree, presents, and a nice dinner together. None of us non-Christians burst into flames, Jesus did not smite us, and we all had a great time enjoying the holiday and whatever it means to us as individuals.
Not one of them decided not to come over to my house because they knew I wasn't Christian.
A lot of interesting points brought up here- and some of them make me really question how people come to believe what they believe.

two side notes- July 4th has always just been fireworks and alcohol for me and most people I know. And I once did read an article that outlined why it was immoral for Christians to practice yoga. It was totally serious and written by a Christian who truly believed that spending that time was opening yourself up to the devil.

Happy Holidays- whatever you celebrate and however you decide to celebrate it.

Originally Posted by :
And I once did read an article that outlined why it was immoral for Christians to practice yoga. It was totally serious and written by a Christian who truly believed that spending that time was opening yourself up to the devil.

Yup. I mentioned above that when I was in high school I started going to a fundamentalist Baptist church. I started taking a yoga class after school and I remember being called into the youth pastor's office and "counseled" on how I was opening myself up to demonic influences by doing so.

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