Originally Posted by mandalinn82:

And I'll never understand why in this world, which is so devoid of love and friendship and good cheer, anyone would try to prevent anyone else from spreading it, no matter what their religion or the time of year.

EXACTLY!!!

And like PhotoChick said in her post -- that is one of the most UN-Christian sentiments ever. Get off your self-righteous high horse and start practicing what you preach.

I don't practice any religion, and yet, I find Christmas to be the most delightful times of the entire year. Everyone is happy, relaxed because they are off work, everyone makes an effort to have dinners and parties and make food and invite people and visit.

In other cultures (I lived in Saudi Arabia so I know) they make an effort to do this ALL YEAR. Unfortunately, in the western world we don't. So when we finally muster up the energy to do it once a year, there shouldn't be anyone tsk tsk'ing about how they own Christmas and we shouldn't be celebrating it. It's silly nonsense.

~CGH~

Originally Posted by Schumeany:
Of course you have the right to stand up and say what you believe, but to think that there will not be personal consequences, like the loss of some friends or some family members who will not associate with you, is not realistic. A lot of people simply do not have the resources to deal with beliefs that contradict their own. It is upsetting to them...sometimes threatening to them...even terrifying to them to have to think outside of their own belief system. So you have a choice. Your beliefs are YOURS...to keep personal and private if you so choose or blast to the world if you so choose. It is up to you to decide what is worth losing in exchange for the right to say what you think. You can decide that not everyone has to know what you believe all the time. That it is not necessary to throw your beliefs in the face of those who you KNOW will be disturbed by them...yes, even when they are doing the same to you. It is kind to be gentle with people who cannot accept a wider view of what is possible. As long as our nation's laws remain strong protecting your beliefs and theirs, that is what REALLY counts. If and when the time comes that those LAWS are threatened, and I mean REALLY threatened, not the pissy little "ten commendments on the wall of the courthouse" kind of stupidity, I will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you, protecting your right to believe whatever you want. ****, I'd die to protect your right to believe whatever you want.

I am sorry, by the way, that you have suffered just because of your views on the existence of God. Atheism is a VERY hard thing for some people to swallow because it gets to the core fear that is shared by everyone...that we are FINITE, and the possibility that we are finite leads to the ultimate question, "So why am I here?" For the athiest, there is no why...you just are. A lot of people cannot face that concept...cannot listen to it. Even if they do not "believe" it, the little niggling voice in the back of their head still asks the question...and so your beliefs represent the terror of every five-year-old lying awake in bed at night, obsessing about the fact that they are going to DIE someday. Recognize that some people's five-year-old never grows up. But those people, as long as they are given no real world power, are harmless...except in as much as you let them personally hurt your feelings or offend you, and, to some extent, you can control that with what beliefs you choose to voice to them.

Schumeany, I love the way you say things. You just summarized my entire outlook on life, much better than I could have expressed it. :) Thanks. I'm going to copy that post and save it.

Thanks Shannon. :)

Schumeany - I think you're bang on in what you say, I just wish it wasn't that way. I don't get why some people are so upset that I don't believe what they do - why they want to deny me my celebrations and traditions. I know it's an unrealistic idea to wish that everyone was more tolerant, but I am an idealist at heart. :o

It is an extreemly small minority of people that have given me a hard time about doing my own thing at Xmas, but it's a very hard to ignore minority. I have openly been an atheist for over 20 years, though I don't push it. I explain when asked, and the vast majority of people have no problem with it, the ones that do, are generally not people I want to be friends with anyway. But we all have buttons that set us off, and this seems to be becomming one of mine. :)

There is a quote improperly attributed to Voltaire, which basically has the same sentiment that you expressed: "I disagree with what you have to say but will fight to the death to protect your right to say it." (actually properly attributed to Evelyn Beatrice Hall). I agree very much with this sentiment, and always will, but I will also try to educate when a point of view is based in ignorance. :D

BP

hey all, i consider myself agnostic but i celebrate christmas because that's the way i grew up. my mom is NOT a church go-er christmas or not i just like the pretty lights and the family get to together and who doesn't love presents! and now that i have a child she'll have fun finding presents under the tree, that's my view anyway.

happy holidays!

BoPeep, for some the mere discussion of God not being real goes against their religious beliefs. They believe they are called to speak up in the Creator's name.

For For that reason I will have to say, HAPPY BIRTHDAY JESUS CHRIST, SON OF GOD.

Hey BP,

A couple of years ago I started a book club with some of the women in my neighborhood. We represented a VERY broad spectrum of religious and political views. Some of the women began to suggest books that pushed HARD their religious views and their political philosophy. There are A LOT of good books out there...it wasn't necessary, but they couldn't seem to help themselves. Our meetings began to get contentious. So, as I was sort of the "leader" or "host", I suggested that we have a rule that it was OK to read books that included spirituality and political ideas, but not books that came from a place that espoused ONLY one way of thought to the exclusion of others. The book club fell apart.

This past summer we were hosting the neighborhood BBQ in our front yard, and I was talking to one of my neighbors whose husband is a youth pastor, and they are very active in their church. I mentioned the book club in passing. She got upset and said that she had been offended that I had not respected her religious views. I asked her in what way. She said that I had said I didn't want to read about her beliefs. I said to her that that statement absolutely wasn't true. I was happy to read about her beliefs. That learning about different religious beliefs was fascinating to me, but I was not happy to read anything that claimed there was only one way to think, and I was not happy to have other guests in my home, some of whom had very different beliefs from hers, forced to read the same. I told her that with all the options out there, we could easily have chosen books that satisfied everyone without forcing a single viewpoint. A few minutes later, she and her family left the party.

When we see each other on the street, we are still civil to each other, but that is pretty much as far as it goes.

Oh, by the way, I am an idealist too. :)

For some reason, this situation makes me so angry and it didn't even happen to me! I consider myself Agnostic but Christmas to me is about being with the people you love and being happy. I love the decorations and buying gifts and just the feeling in the air. The fact that a so called 'Christian' would try to stop you from spreading the love just because you don't believe in God is just bull! No one actually knows what date Jesus was born on anyway. Christians (at least the ones I've met) have a tendency to be very hostile about their religion. They preach tolerance but don't actually practice it. I have a circle of friends with different religions (Buddhist, Muslim, Wiccan, etc) and I have never witnessed any or as much hostility towards other beliefs from those religions as there is in Christianity. Okay, I'm getting long winded so I'll stop. Schumeany, you said everything I would want to say quite nicely and intelligently. Bravo!

This might get me flamed, but a lot of people celebrate the holidays, but I do feel that Christmas is a Christian holiday, hence the 'Christ' part of it.

Jewish celebrate Hannukah as an example, they don't celebrate Christmas.

It's cool to get together with friends and family, visit, do whatever, but don't call it Christmas if you're not a Christian.

As far as church goes, I believe that God is in our hearts and souls. Ted Nugent finds his sanctuary with God when he's in the outdoors, among God's creation. Does that mean he has less faith than those who go to services weekly?


As far as tolerance goes, tolerance is fine, but just because I don't agree with something does not mean I'm intolerant. It just means I do not agree. I'm fine with people having other religions or lack there of, different traditions, etc. but while no one wants me to say "Merry Christmas" because it's offensive, I'm also not going to say 'Happy Holidays" to avoid offending people either.

I'm not going to go out on the streetcorner grilling people about thier holiday plans, but I'm not going to hide mine either, if I'm asked.

Atheists feel slighted because it's Christmas, the whole Christ thing, but Christians are villified for protecting what we see as the reverence of the day.

If I exchange gifts with friends and family ( of all faiths ), it doesn't mean that I have less reverence and value the day less than if I was in Church all the time.

It goes both ways.

While I may come across as intolerant because I do have passion for what I believe in, I'm also not going to push my beliefs on anyone either.

schumeany - that is so sad that your book club fell apart. Isn't that why one reads? To learn something new? I wish your narrow minded neighbour could have her blinkers removed. She would see that the world is an amazing and fascinating place and worth learning about!

I had a very interesting dinner this evening. My friends, DH and I discussed this topic almost all night. Despite the consumption of much wine, we were not able to become wise enough to figure it out :lol:

I think I will have to work on not letting the intolerance of others get to me. I will keep trying to teach them that the world is not black and white, but a rainbow of colours and really worth looking at (to be corny for a moment :D).

And I hope everyone has a great day tomorrow, no matter what you believe in. And the day after that, and the day after that...:hug:

BP

I don't know why, but this thread reminds me of the time someone tried to set my brother's jacket on fire. Then the guy called my bro a "stupid Jew."

My bro laughs about it now.

Originally Posted by Optical Goddess:

It's cool to get together with friends and family, visit, do whatever, but don't call it Christmas if you're not a Christian.

Actually, Christians took a Pagan celebration day and CALLED it Christmas. So, seeing as Christians called it whatever THEY wanted, I am totally free to call it whatever I want.

Regardless, Merry Christmas to everyone here on 3FC!

~CGH~

Originally Posted by :
Actually, Christians took a Pagan celebration day and CALLED it Christmas.

They did the same with Easter. And All Saint's Day. ;)

Pretty much any Christian holiday is one that was superimposed over a "pagan" (i.e. non-Christian) holiday, to aid in converting the locals.

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Totally unrelated to the discussion, but could someone please tell me why people use "XMas", or "Xtians", why is "Christ" substituted with an X?

I'm not trying to rile anyone up, I'm just curious. Even CHristina Aguilera's alter ego is "Xtina"...

Here you go:

http://www.snopes.com/holidays/christmas/xmasabbr.asp

I personally use it a lot becuase it's faster to type Xmas than Christmas. :)


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