Have a happy holiday, bopeep, and celebrate this season of love and joy any way you wish :hug:

How silly of them! Don't believe a word of it (to the OP).

Just as many Christians at Christmas time celebrate in non-Christian ways (outside of church and at the mall), I think this is a time of year for people to just enjoy the season no matter what the religion. If Christmas is supposed to be about giving and celebrating time with family and generally promoting the "season's greetings", I would think everyone would be on board with that. With all the bad in the world, we can all make room for those that want to participate in the good.

Kumbyah ;)

No one person, group, nation, etc. owns a single day of the year. We each get to walk this path through life any way we choose...and that means that as long as we do no harm to others, we each get to celebrate or not celebrate any darn thing we want to in any way we please. While governments, religions, organizations, etc. may try to deny, hijack or even subjugate the outward trappings of that celebration from time to time, it is a simple truth that what we celebrate, the things that bring us joy, cannot be taken from us because they are not really about outward trappings. "Getting together with friends and family" is just an external manifestation of the feeling -- an outlet for your enjoyment of a very special, cozy and sparkly time of year. If you don't like the commercialism, ignore it. If you don't like the secular aspects, don't include them in your family's choices. If you don't like the religious aspects, avoid them. If you want to celebrate Casper the Ghost, have at it. The world is a big place, and there is room for ALL of it. It is diversity of belief and diversity of thought that makes it such an amazing place. I, for one, am waiting impatiently for Santa to come down my chimney so that I can see the looks of unbridled joy on the faces of my three little boys. It is a complicated issue, but it is, in a very fundamental way, very simple too.

I think that's going on my greeting card next year ;)

IOW, very well put.

See, this is my point. I'm not celebrating Christmas. I'm not a Christian. I have been told many times that 'this is Christmas', and I can't have a good time. It's not all about Christmas. Would you tell a Jew not to have people over for dinner or give gifts at this time? No. What about a pagan? No. A Buddhist? No. So why can I not do it? Why don't I have the right?

I don't give Christmas gifts, eat Christmas dinner, go to church, believe in Santa or any other tradition that is typical for a North American Christmas. But some people seem to resent that I enjoy giving any sort of gift at all (even a bottle of wine in a fancy bag) or host people over for dinner at this time of year.

I give gifts and host dinners at other times of the year, so why do I have to become a hermit for this specific couple of weeks while others have a good time? The answer is I don't, and I won't. But some people have a hard time seperating the Christian religious holy day from general merriment.

BP

:yikes:










... ;)

Hmmm... maybe I better change my mind on that. I suddenly need a new monitor and keyboard. Mine now have tea all over them.

:lol:

BP

Thanks! :D Tonight I am having three friends over for dinner - a lapsed catholic, a practicing muslim, and a shinto follower. We are going to celebrate Friends! :grouphug:

BP

BP - that sounds phenomenal. I'm not particularly religious (exploring things, but not practicing anything), but use the holiday time to reflect on my family traditions, value my family and friends, and generally show people that I care about them through words and deeds.

And I'll never understand why in this world, which is so devoid of love and friendship and good cheer, anyone would try to prevent anyone else from spreading it, no matter what their religion or the time of year.

Bopeep, why so much concern? Are your friends refusing to come over? Are they throwing your gifts back in your face? Is the sheriff at your door, arresting you for your atheism? Have you been refused by any retailer the right to buy the makings for dinner or a nice bottle of wine to share with the people you care about? I am pretty sure the answer to these questions is "no".

We live in a nation where the majority of the citizenry is Christian, but NOT in a Christian nation. This country, at least for now, is, for the most part, secular, and we retain the right to think and say what we please. That means, however, that Christians get to think and say what they please...including that they think you shouldn't be celebrating "their holiday" if that is what a segment of them believe to be truth, but belief is NOT action...it does not harm you unless you give those beliefs power over you, and the fact that their beliefs are different than yours and different than mine and different than Joe Schmoe's down the street, and all of us get to keep believing as we wish, is a thing worth celebrating.

Pretty much everyone goes through life doing the best they can...there are, of course, exceptions...but for the most part, it is true. We each come from a unique set of experiences, traditions and family dynamics...but with the tools we have, we all live our lives the best we can based on what we have to work with. Just embrace who you are and what makes you unique, and enjoy the things that matter to you and yours.

I was raised in a very religious home. I went to church every Sunday, youth group Sunday and Wednesday nights (middle school through high school), went to weekend retreats, summer camps, went to and later taught vacation Bible school. In our home, we always celebrated Lent, not just Easter. Christmas was about Christ's birth and we always attended the midnight candlelight service, but it was ALSO very much about Santa, gifts, and cookies and food galore. Yes, we always had a manger and an angel on top of the tree, but the secular/cultural elements were there as well. As much as it pains my mom (who is wonderfully restrained in not bothering me about it), my faith faded away beginning in high school and was for all intents and purposes gone by my early twenties, despite the fact that I found a church to attend in college and despite the fact that I wanted desperately to believe all that I was raised to believe.

I simply had too many questions that no one could answer for me. I was always told you have to just have FAITH, and well, I guess I just I just lost that faith along the way. Back to the point at hand -- For me, it would be very strange not to celebrate the season in anyway. It is VERY much a part of my FAMILY TRADITION and has been for 40 years. So, yes,I do celebrate, but I try not to do so hypocritically. I can NOT stand the hypocrisy and consumerism of the season. I have not been caught anywhere near in a mall in December for many, many years. Several years ago, I implored my in-laws and my own family not to exchange adult gifts anymore. It was always such a stress inducing enterprise - running around like crazy a day or two before Christmas buying gifts we couldn't afford that we weren't even sure the other person wanted. My in-laws (who are Christian but who have NEVER attended church) were particularly bad about spending heinous amounts of money on shockingly bad/ugly gifts. What a waste! It was tough for my MIL to let go of the spend spend spend mentality, but when she finally did, she too enjoyed the stress free nature of simply spending time with family at the holidays. My own family embraced the no gifts for adults - if we see something during the year we know a family member would love - we buy it and give it. But there is no pressure to buy just for the sake of buying. We do moderate gift for the 6 kids, ages 10 down to 1.

So, we do celebrate Christmas with my family, and I think it would just kill my mom if I were to say, "Well, you know DH and I don't believe the story of Jesus rising from the dead anymore, so call us next week. We won't be over at Christmas, and sorry, we have no gifts for the nieces and nephews." That would be just nutty. I think it would be equally odd if DH and I did not get together in a celebratory way with our friends (Christians and non) during the holidays. We are off work for 2 weeks - should we just sit home or leave town or something? I have one very devout friend, and I might add that she is one of my closest friends and she is what I consider a "true" Christian (sorry, but I don't believe most of those who call themselves Christian are very devout). Anyway, she and I have discussed this before, and she is understanding and accepting of where I am coming from. I wish everyone could be as tolerant (WWJD?? I don't think he would bash anyone for having friends over--hmm... maybe you present a small xmas gift to your friend, a WWJD bracelet!).

I think most everyone on the thread is of the mindset of live and let live... I'm sorry if I have gotten tangential, but this strikes a cord with me. Celebrate the season - whatever that means to you - and peace and good will to all!

Bravo!

.

Of course no one is *preventing* me from doing as I wish, but you would be quite astonished at the hostility I have received over the years as an out of the closet atheist. I have had several family members estrange themselves from me, and actually have lost friends over this. While I take the view that they were obviously not true friends (or family I want to associate with), it is frustrating to see people behave this way. :(

It *does* harm me to be on the receiving end of intolerance. I am not being thrown in jail for my belief, true, but I am being ostracized, and criticized for not adhering to a more common belief, and that is wrong. It doesn't matter if it is one person, ten or a thousand, that is telling me I should not be social now. If I don't stand up and say that I have every right to have friends over and give a gift today, then when should I stand up? What intolerence should I tolerate, and what should I protest?

I think it would be nice if we could all get along and accept everyone's belief's without any judgement. Most people I know already do that, and I am happy to find that as time goes on, that intolerance is becoming rarer. But it's still there, and it won't go away if I ignore it. ;)

BP

Bopeep, I'm an atheist as well, but not 'out of the closet' to everyone in my life. I'm like Claire - my parents pretty much now, but I still celebrate Christmas with them and don't point out that I don't believe what they believe. If people ask me, I tell them. I just don't advertise it. I also celebrate Christmas at home, and actually have a displayed nativity scene that was in my room when i was a small child, and another figure of Mary & Joseph that was a gift from my mother. Both of them are beautiful. I don't believe what they depict, but I appreciate the artistic beauty of the figures.

I have gotten pushback from some of those people, as well. I make my stepson an Easter basket and one of my friends read me the riot act about it, since it was celebrating the resurrection. My basket had nothing to do with the resurrection and everything to do with chocolate bunnies and jelly beans. :) I have also had people ask me what I'm doing for the holidays, since I don't believe in anything. Again, like Claire, I believe in spending time with friends and family.

I have friends who are pagan and they receive much less flack for their beliefs than I get for mine. People have more tolerance for them because they believe in something, where I do not. It was explained to me once by a Christian friend that you can try to convert someone who has a basic belief structure, harder to convert someone without one. He sees talking to me about religion as 'casting pearls before swine' or something like that I guess. :)

Have a great time, whatever you do!

Of course you have the right to stand up and say what you believe, but to think that there will not be personal consequences, like the loss of some friends or some family members who will not associate with you, is not realistic. A lot of people simply do not have the resources to deal with beliefs that contradict their own. It is upsetting to them...sometimes threatening to them...even terrifying to them to have to think outside of their own belief system. So you have a choice. Your beliefs are YOURS...to keep personal and private if you so choose or blast to the world if you so choose. It is up to you to decide what is worth losing in exchange for the right to say what you think. You can decide that not everyone has to know what you believe all the time. That it is not necessary to throw your beliefs in the face of those who you KNOW will be disturbed by them...yes, even when they are doing the same to you. It is kind to be gentle with people who cannot accept a wider view of what is possible. As long as our nation's laws remain strong protecting your beliefs and theirs, that is what REALLY counts. If and when the time comes that those LAWS are threatened, and I mean REALLY threatened, not the pissy little "ten commandments on the wall of the courthouse" kind of stupidity, I will be standing shoulder to shoulder with you, protecting your right to believe whatever you want. ****, I'd die to protect your right to believe whatever you want.

I am sorry, by the way, that you have suffered because of your views on the existence of God. Atheism is a VERY hard thing for some people to swallow because it gets to the core fear that is shared by everyone...that we are FINITE, and the possibility that we are finite leads to the ultimate question, "So why am I here?" For the atheist, there is no why...you just are. A lot of people cannot face that concept...cannot listen to it. Even if they do not "believe" it, the little niggling voice in the back of their head still asks the question...and so your beliefs represent the terror of every five-year-old lying awake in bed at night, obsessing about the fact that they are going to DIE someday. Recognize that some people's five-year-old never grows up. But those people, as long as they are given no real world power, are harmless...except in as much as you let them personally hurt your feelings or offend you, and, to some extent, you can control that with what beliefs you choose to voice to them.