If you're okay without K for P certification, that's fine. Some of us are looking for assurances. Are Splenda or Equal inherently chometz? No. However, it is important for some people (like me) to be told that a rabbi supervised the plant, and that there were no non-kosher chemicals or soaps used to clean the equipment, and that the employees of the plant did not inadvertently bring any chometz into the plant while making the K for P items.
During the year, there's a rule that if 1/60th of the vessel is non-kosher (i.e. accidentally splashing a bit of milk into a pot of chicken soup), the food in that vessel is still considered kosher. However, there is no such rule for Passover. And, to your point, Equal does have OU certification year-round. Perhaps there's an extra expense associated with Passover certification (most likely there is), or perhaps there's actually a reason that it is not certified.
As for legumes and such, no, there is no halachic reason for it. It is tradition. I was told that if you touch something with kitniyot (thanks for the explanation, Bumby) to your K for P dishes (i.e. string beans), it doesn't make them chometz, and eating them doesn't, per se, mean that you 'broke Passover'. However, tradition for many of us dictates that we don't eat it.
What defines Kosher l'Pesach? It depends. For me, everything I eat has to be heckshered. For someone else, it might just be not to eat bread. For another, it might be to eat things that aren't inherently chometz (sounds like Bumby is in this camp). Religion is a very personal thing, and, really, it's to each his/her own.
As for the baking powder and peanut oil, I did get explanations for those items at some point in my life, but I don't recall what they are at the moment. If I remember or find out, I'll post it.
If anyone is interested, the OU site has a listing of items that are certified, including a listing of things that need to specifically say K for P and those for which just the OU is fine. There are other heckshers out there for Passover, but this one is most common. http://www.ou.org/chagim/pesach/pesa...01/default.htm
Dina - I commend you for the tactful and informative reply.
Also, although the rice/legume rule is, in fact, a tradition there is a rule saying that old traditions that Jews have practiced for years become, in essence, a law. That's the reason we still apply this rule now.
I agree w/ the law/tradition concept, which is why I cited it in the first place. All the facts are valid. What I did was attempt (and from your response, rather poorly) to explain an answer to the question on legumes and such (by the way, it IS more expensive for the hecksher for pesach because of the cleaning that must be done.) I don't know if any of you is old enough to remember that coca cola used to have to change their recipe for pesach because they used to use corn sweetener during the year, and for pesach use changed to cane syrup... Anyway, if any of us has provided some assistance to any of you with questions, that is a beautiful thing.
I remember the coca cola change! Don't they still have to do it? I believe that the label says corn and/or cane syrup. The big thing about it was that without the corn syrup, it was the REAL original recipe. I haven't looked at non-diet soda for so long, though. Now, if only Heinz Ketchup and Hellmann's Mayo would accomodate.....
Although I agree that the cleaning can be expensive (probably more the kashering), when I mentioned the increased expense I was referring to the fact that a rabbi has to be there more frequently during the time that they're making K for P items, to keep closer supervision. So, I'm sure that when OU writes the contract it's something like $x amount for year-round supervision and $y amount for Passover certification.
Dina: Exactly -- about the Rabbi's presence. Oy, what we do for pesach! (I have no one to sell my chometz to, either, so don't ask what happens to my den during that time...) Which mayo do you use? I'm almost exclusively on Season brand products during the holiday.
Bumby: the potato noodles are fine -- and the marshmallows too, probably. I've always had a problem w/ klp "noodles" made from potato starch because of their texture. My feeling is, the holiday is all about SEPARATING yourself from your usual foods, so the substitutions, while I laud the effort, don't even have a place in my life. A week w/o noodles won't kill me. The matzo does that very nicely. (Do you eat egg matzo? The purists do not...
Selling your chometz doesn't mean that you need to get it out of your house. You just need to separate it to an area that you won't touch for the holiday. I just cover the wine rack over with a sheet, and we'll find a place for the rest of the stuff. I actually sold mine through Chabad online. I just filled out a form with all of the relevant info, and the Rabbi will take care of the rest (of course I'll send a small donation for their trouble -- I do it through the Chabad at my alma mater).
I don't like Passover mayo very much, but in the past we've used Streitz. For whatever reason, my supermarket didn't have it this year, so DH bought Unger's regular mayo, and I got Unger's lowfat.
As for Egg Matzo, it's more the additional calories than being a purist. I usually purchase a box to eat between when you can't have chometz anymore the day of the 1st Seder and the Seder itself (for those of you who are not aware, the law/tradition is that you're not supposed to have matzoh until the Seder itself). However, I'll probably be eating it a day longer this year, since I have to be completely changed over before sundown on Friday, and the seder isn't until Saturday night.
imaleader, I find your view on not eating the noodles interesting. That's where the personal aspects of religion come in! I still consider it a separation -- after all, the noodles aren't chometz -- and I still have to think a lot more about what I'm eating during that time of year than any other. Besides which, the substitutes aren't nearly as good as the originals.
There are some people who don't "do" non-dairy creamer, tofutti, etc. with meat because it seems like getting around the rules somehow. I guess it would be easy to feel that way about Passover breakfast cereal, Passover bagel mix, Passover pizza crust mix, Passover spaghetti, etc., etc. But to me, they are different enough from our usual that the challenge of getting through the week without chometz (or kitniyos--harder, actually) is still there, even if we do have the Passover Cheerios for breakfast. The noodles, however, are gross. Tried them once. That was enough.
Actually, it makes me nuts at a local Kosher meat restaurant when they've asked me if I want yogurt sauce with my appetizer/meal, and I can't remember what it is now, but it was something else that was a substitute and they were calling by its dairy name. I don't mind using the substitutes. I just prefer they be called by their real names and not what they are substitutes for.
Bumby, I tried the noodles one year and disliked them as well. However, I did find that the Savion brand wasn't terrible -- it was a lot like whole wheat pasta.
Thank you for your suggestions! They were very helpful!
I'll be at the Academy house on Locust and 15th, I think...it's very close to Center Foods..I passed it by many times! I'll be sure to stock up on food when I'm there.
I'm also sure to be at South Street...my kinda place! I was there last time, but it was pretty late at night so I don't remember where everything was!
imaleader -
The do, in fact, change the coca-cola recipe for Passover. Instead of using corn syrup they use sugar. You'll notice that coke bottles for the past few weeks have a yellow cap on it instead of the usual white. It indicates that it is kosher for Pesach (besides for the OU-P on the cap).
Yes -- right! And to me, it's not a meal w/o coca cola. How pathetic is that? I mean, I can't have dinner w/o a glass of coke -- of course right now I only drink diet, but still (my non-jewish friends think it is soooo peculiar that I don't drink milk w/ meals. ick.
Oh, and Bumby: I agree w/ you on the (non)yogurt dressing too. My local McDonalds (kosher) sells a "cheese"burger. Feh. The whole point of kashruth, in separating the concept of dairy and meat, means that we shouldn't be using the substitutes either. I don't know. We could discuss this until the cows come home.
You have a kosher McDonald's in Armonk?? (I grew up in Edgemont--I think we played Armonk in sports.)
I, personally, do eat cheese "burgers" consisting of dairy cheese and non-meat (soy) burgers. That doesn't trouble me, but then again, I grew up on REAL cheeseburgers, ham, pork chops, shrimp, you name it. I've only been making any efforts in this area since I was 15. I could see if you had always grown up with it, the idea would just be beyond gross. I tried melting soy "cheese" with turkey once (back in my treif days, any kind of meat with melted cheese was my #1 favorite thing. The microwave was a miracle product for that reason), but it tasted too treif to me and I couldn't eat it. For whatever reason, I have no problem with soyburgers or soy "meat" sauce in lasagna or soy-filled tacos/chili with cheese. Maybe it's because I really have no recollection of what real ground beef tastes like in these contexts.
It's my position that the dietary laws create a mindfulness of religious obligation at whatever level of strictness they are observed, from the most careful "hecksher snob" to the person who at least thinks to himself "gee, I really shouldn't be having this cheese on this burger." I think this because I was the person who didn't even have that thought for the first 15 years of my life, and who is moving gradually (and not always consistently) toward a greater degree of mindfulness.
Fun how this thread has been hopping. Dina started a Passover thread last spring and she and I pretty much had it to ourselves.
imaleader-
There is certainly nothing wrong with eating the substitutes. The only thing that you have to be careful about is that people who see you eating a "cheesburger" for instance, should know that it's a substitute and not the real thing. The same goes for a restaurant that sells these imitations - it should be clear to everyone who enters (and from outside too) that these are imitations and not the real things - and that this establishment does not sell dairy products.
Otherwise, feel free to enjoy it- there are no restrictions on enjoying something that is absolutely permissible by Torah law.
You reminded me of the first time my DH had a Boca Burger with cheese on it -- he said it tasted exactly like a fast-food cheeseburger. Being that I've never eaten one in my life, I don't know what they taste like, so the substitution doesn't bother me in the least. Come to think of it, since I've never had any milk and meat together, none of the substitutions would bother me from that standpoint -- since I don't know what the 'real thing' tastes like, a substitute can't taste 'treif' to me.
However, the smell of bacon is the epitome of treif to me, and that flavor bothers me in anything. When DH noticed that Shake and Bake was heckshered, he asked me to bread some chicken breasts in it. I had trouble eating it because the smoky flavor in the breading was too much like bacon to me. Again, perfectly permissible, but I have a mental block to it. Same with Bacos on salad (or as DH likes them, in egg salad). Different things are going to bring things up for different people.
Now, if only Heinz Ketchup and Hellmann's Mayo would accomodate.....
