Appalling...
 

So I was directed to an article today, online and it seriously disgusted and shocked me. It was an eye opener as to what the modelling industry sees as "overweight".

The article went on to say:

-Twenty years ago the average fashion model weighed 8% less than the average woman. Today, she weighs 23% less.

- Ten years ago plus-size models averaged between size 12 and 18. Today the need for size diversity within the plus-size modeling industry continues to be questioned. The majority of plus-size models on agency boards are between a size 6 and 14, while the customers continue to express their dissatisfaction.

- Most runway models meet the Body Mass Index physical criteria for Anorexia.

- 50% of women wear a size 14 or larger, but most standard clothing outlets cater to sizes 14 or smaller.

What really got me though, was the size of plus-sized models. At what freaking point did a size 6 or a size 8 become plus sized?

Now, I don't want to be, nor did I ever want to be a model, but I think this sets a HORRIBLE example for our children. I knew models were a lot smaller than they used to be, but really? A size 8 is plus sized? I just don't think so.

You know, I am going to be honest here. Yes, this is a bad example for children, both little boys and girls. Girls, it is so obvious - but boys too. After all, male eating disorders exist, not to mention the "image" of a woman that they look to.

On the other hand - I think we should admit that obesity is also a horrible example and the rising statistics of childhood obesity is a direct reflection as well.

Models aren't real people. Everybody knows that. :rofl:

A size 8 is plus sized? Then I can hardly WAIT to be "plus sized"!!!

And I agree - this is not a good example to set for future adults. And neither is obesity. As a society, we simply must find a common ground. But what's common anymore?

The thing is, skinny parents don't always mean skinny kids.....just like overweight parents don't always mean overweight kids.

Obesity is rampant, absolutely, but *I*, as a morbidly obese woman, am extremely careful about how food is approached with my 2 girls. Neither of them is overweight (one's actually very slender), I strive to not make food an issue in my house almost compulsively.

I think unrealistic self images will absolutely do more harm than good. I think there should NEVER be a time when a size 8 or 10, or ever 12 is considered plus size! I believe Marilyn Monroe, iconic sex goddess wore a size 12.

Wow. Size 6 to size 8? I think that probably has crushed a lot of women who had good body images with a slight worry. I know that recently clothing sizes have once again changed. I worked hard to get into 1X's and now I have to browse the 2X's even though my girth hasn't changed :(

I will post the link for the article (sorry if it gets deleted) here.

The "plus size" model in question is NOT what I would call "plus sized", and it shames me to think that such a beautiful woman would have to go into the "plus size" modelling business!

That's insane about size 8 being plus size! My little sister has a great body - she's 3 inches taller than me, much more well-endowed than me (haha), and probably on the low side of the healthy BMI for her height/body frame (140lbs). But we both have wide frames (strapless dresses look terrible on us!) and she's a 6/8. We were shopping for a prom dress for her two years ago and my mom was giving her SO much s**t for being that size. I was like, um, hello, I don't think she could lose any weight without being sick! She's just a very active person and has had great fitness her whole life. And here's my mom, making HER feel fat simply because of her dress size. I was so incredibly pissed.

She did! She actually fluctuated, like most of us do, between sizes 12-14! Yep! Such a beautiful, curvy woman she was! And back in her time, their magazine covers read "Don't be skinny", and had articles on how to boost your curves. Now EVERY.SINGLE.MAGAZINE starts with 'How to lose 5lbs in a week', or something to that nature. It truly disgusts me to think about it. :(

The plus size model thing makes me laugh all the time and I used to get so annoyed when I was plus size. Size 12 on a 6' tall woman is a LOT different than size 12 on a woman my height. Now that they're using tall size 8 and 6 women...how are actual plus size women supposed to see how the clothes look?

No, she didn't. Not in today's sizes anyway.

She had 36" hips at one point. That's a size 2/4 in most sizes today. However she never really had a "size" assigned to her. Most of her clothes were custom made and some were even sewn on to her so they were skin tight.

She was 5'5" or around there. Size 4 in a woman of that size looks a lot different than size 4 on a taller woman.

Let's not start about vanity sizing though. Sizes in the 50s were completely different than they are today.

Marilyn Monroe did something I would love to do if I had the means—clothes made for MY UNIQUE CURVES

Thank you, sontaikle. Marilyn Monroe was not a modern 12/14- anyone curious can look up the size creep that has happened in women's clothing measurements. A 12 of the 1950s was something like a 6 today.

Additionally, couture clothing is cut to the old school sizes- think wedding dress sizes. An 8 in Marc Jacobs' catwalk collection is not an 8 at the Gap. I'm not getting my panties in a knot that a woman wearing a street size 10 or 12 is considered plus size in the world of haute couture.

I shop a lot at one store and the jeans I just bought were a size 12. Now let me tell you that noway, nohow am I a size 12. I usually wear a 16. So, that is what vanity sizing has done to us, who are we kidding?

I'm sure Marilyn Monroe was never the size 12 I'm wearing. She would be a size 6 by today's standards. When I was a teenager, there were no size 0's or 00's. Having said that, depending on the manufacturer, I could see where a size 12 could be plus size, because that's what used to be considered a 16 or more.

There's a really interesting thread on 3FC regarding weight/height/size. It's fascinating to scroll through and see how different women who seem to have similar stats, wear different sizes.

Also, not only are models getting thinner, but with the general population is getting larger, I can believe that they weigh 23 percent less than the general population.

It's a crazy world.

im anywhere from a 12-22 in n.a sizing and 18-20 in uk sizes. sizing is just annoying but its hard to judge whose thin or fat these days, obviously the extremes are easy to tell but ive seen girls call other girls that are 140lbs fat saying things like wow she needs to eat salad and once that girl is lost like 10lbs its oh who does she think she is being that thin! she needs to eat a burger, it seems theres a very thin line has to whats considered fat or thin when you get down to ppl that wear general 0-8 a tiny amount of weight can make the difference between fat or thin in a lot of ppls eyes than. im not saying its right or that its my opinion, i dont think any size 8 is fat, but its what ive noticed ppl saying. could just be cattyness too lol just seems the standards leave very little room between plus and thin

It's not that models have gotten skinnier. The rest of of us have gotten fatter.

And when I got to 170 last month, I was beginning to be able to fit into size 10. By the time I get to 160, I will probably wear a mix between 8-10 depending on the manufacturer, but in haute couture, I would still be about a size 14. Sizes have changed that much in the last 25 years. And.... I will nevere be a model, but at a size 8 in today's sizes, yes, that is a larger woman and would have been considered plus size for sure 25 years ago. It's a small plus size, but today,s 8 isn't small!

I'm a size 8, so therefore I'd be considered "plus sized". And to think I worked my butt off to get here. :dizzy: Not cool, modelling industry!!

sizes have changed so much. I remember in about '84 a friend worked in a clothing store and holding up the first 1 we had ever seen. It didn't look big enough to fit a barbie. Those days being really skinny meant fitting into a size 6. It was scary to think anyone might actually be smaller than that.

I've known about the plus size models for a while. They take small models and pad them because they want the slim calves and jaw line.

Size 12 or 6, doesn't really matter I guess- she was a CURVY woman and looked beautiful in her curves. None of this nonsense, sharp bones poking thru your clothes crap. Blech!

It's unfair to insult other body types though, I was underweight when I was younger (under 20) and it always hurt me when people made fun of that. You can be proud of your size/curves/whatever without demeaning others.

Wow really?

Nobody should shame people's bodies--regardless of what end of the spectrum they fall on

Thank you, ladies. I wanted to say something to this effect but nothing I wrote came out quite as tactful.

I'm a little curious why anyone would be upset about this article? Or what the modeling industry says about sizing?

Unless you're a model, does it affect you in any way? Lol, it sure doesn't to me!

I'm a size 2 in some stores, a 4 in others...a size small in one store, and xxs in another (wtf?). But at the end of the day, a size on the tag is one little thing compared to the biggie to me: what do I look like naked? Am I seeing muscle tone? Am I losing fat?

I'm even starting to let go of the numbers on the scale... I will probably always weigh daily, but I know that I can change my body at this point with body recomposition without seeing big number changes on the scale.

There are a lot of women who are 5'0 and 110lbs who probably look a heck of a lot better than I do naked :)

And I could care less what any industry would have to say about my size.
ESPECIALLY the modeling industry, lol !!

According to the top modeling agencies in the world (Ford, Wihelmina, Elite, Click, Next, et al), plus size models are booked at sizes 8 through 16/18. It's a fact when you're dealing with the modeling world.

Plus size clothing vendors, designers, etc. request models starting at a size 8, and that is what agencies book as plus size. The most requested size is 14, but yep, size 8s are too big for straight size modeling gigs for the most part.

Yeah, but the difference is that no one's promoting obesity or holding it up as an example of the ideal woman/man.

No, but it is okay to take issue with their methods. It would be one thing if models were naturally thin. But, they're not. They go to vastly unhealthy extremes to maintain very low weights, then promote themselves as if their efforts are effortless, so everyone should be their size. It's not the teeny sizes of the models that bug me; it's the lie that the industry perpetuates; it's the taking of extremely impressionable, healthy young women/girls and turning them into shells, husks of their former selves. Skinny women are beautiful. But, models...models WERE beautiful before they entered the industry and they will be beautiful after they leave. But, IMO, no one in that industry is actually beautiful.

That doesn't give anyone the right to say "gross! bones!"

The modeling industry is another issue entirely, but I think it's wrong to go after skinny women in general. There are many naturally skinny women who are just small. I firmly believe that while there are people who can be safely above the "Normal" BMI range that there are people who can be safely below it as well.

I think going after the modeling industry is fine, but we have to be careful how it's done. You can't say "ew, disgusting, you're bony." because there are people out there who are just naturally that way! How do you think they feel when they see that?

I have some friends who fall into that "underweight" range and they don't look as if they're starving and they're perfectly and utterly healthy. They're just built really small. Should we shame them because they're underweight? No, nobody should be shamed because of their body.

It's one of the reasons why I cringe when I hear people describe size 0 as anorexic size or something. If you're short or just small framed, size 0 might be a perfectly acceptable size to get into.

Just as it's wrong to go to an overweight person and yell at them to lose weight, it is wrong to go to a skinny person and tell them to gain.

If they have a health issue that is another matter entirely, but for the most part we should all just accept bodies for their differences and quirks.

Realistically, an "8" IS a plus-size....in the modeling world. Its like how I'm pretty smart---within my peer group. Put me with a bunch of genius people, suddenly I'd be the dumb one.

Now, do I think that a size 8 should be the Vogue model example of the general "plus-size"? Absolutely not. But realistically, as someone who works with teenagers all day, every day, I think a lot more media sources are affecting youth (and therefore the growing generations of women) than model and magazines.

Some random thoughts on this, many of which have already been expressed here...

Well, sure. The average woman in the U.S. has gotten fatter in the past 20 years and the weights for models have stayed the same. That would make a model further away from the average now than she was 20 years ago.

I just did a quick online search for the data so take these numbers with a grain of salt, but average bmi for 18 year olds around 1990 was 22 and average bmi for 18 year olds in 2000 was around 24.5. For a 5'4" young woman, that's a move from about 132 to 147.

Can't size inflation explain that? If you're wearing jeans in a size 24W from Target, you're supposed to have a 45" waist. If you decide to sew your own jeans based on a pattern from Simplicity, a size 24 means you have a 39" waist. Those are pretty dramatic differences. If memory serves, the Simplicity pattern sizes have remained pretty constant over the years while store-bought clothing has been very, very generous in revamping their size numbers.

I don't mean to a jerk and criticize any of the other comments on this issue, but reading variants on this always upsets me because - for me - it reduces a painful, horrible eating disorder to a number. If you're under an 18.5 BMI you're anorexic. End of story.

I've never been anorexic, but I do struggle with my weight (to wit... I'm posting here!). There's so much that goes on mentally when it comes to gaining and losing weight that to reduce any eating disorder to a number and have that be the end of it... well, I think we're doing a disservice to those who are actually suffering from any eating disorder.

After another quick google... the diagnostic criteria for anorexia are complex and there are lots of factors that come into play. BMI is one part, but only one part. And there's also a difference between the BMI for underweight (where I believe most models fall) and severely underweight (where it becomes a serious medical problem).

Yeah. This frustrates me, too. :)

The article certainly has us talking .... there is 250 comments on it in our local website here in New Zealand ....

She is a beautiful women ...... and so are more slightly built models ....

If I was living a healthy lifestyle and looked like her ... I'd be very happy ... so would my husband ....

I do think the idea that she is encoraging obseity is ridiculous though ...

You're right - but I think people are looking in the wrong place if they want to blame their child's potential self-image on Coco Rocha rather than their own eating habits. A mother who struggles with weight, self-image, obesity, or an eating disorder (whether at the big or small end of the spectrum) has a far greater impact.

I just find it strange that women will be up in arms about some Paris runway model (which most little girls have no clue about) but will conveniently ignore the "MODEL" that wakes them up, makes them breakfast, sends them to school, stands on her scale each morning, buys a WW cookbook, etc...

I dunno. I'm just looking at my kid while typing this and thinking, is Karl Lagerfeld going to be to blame for whatever happens? Or is it that I am here on 3FC desperately trying to maintain my loss?

AMEN!!!!

So in today's modeling/entertainment industry she'd STILL be considered plus-size thanks to shift in the modelling agency.

I do agree with the sentiment that we have grown fatter in general, but when a man's body is the most ideal form for women's fashion on the runway, well, something is really effed up:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/ar...ses-woman.html

ETA: the article is highly uh, slanted and from a specific view point, but Andrej Pejic is a recent phenomenon in the fashion industry world and its an interesting debate no matter how you look at it.

It might be weird, but seeing those articles pisses me off. I'm like, that's NOT a healthy way to lose weight! If your goal is to lose, you know, 30lbs in 30 days, how long are you going to keep that off, especially if you did it on an all-banana diet or something? I buy diet cookbooks for the healthy recipes but I'm nearly embarrassed by the "Lose 12lbs in 2 weeks!" crap on the covers. It makes me feel desperate. Um, if it was that easy to lose 12lbs in 2 weeks, we would all be at goal right now. :P

I think, personally, that having such thin models being the pinnacle of the fashion world encourages young girls (and older ones too) to have unreal expectations about what's "healthy".

I think in the modelling industry, plus sized models should be PLUS SIZED (not plus sized for models, but plus sized for women in general). I resent the attitude that anyone wearing over a size 4 is "plus sized". There are MANY MANY women who have been called "fat" who were not overweight simply because of the stigma attached to us women by the modelling industry. Fashion models are SUPPOSED to be a representative of women in general, but that's no longer the case.

And while I am not by any means suggesting that most models should be plus sized, I think a realistic view of "average" sized women would be MUCH more beneficial, not only to the modelling and fashion industry, but to the self image of millions of women. Yes, even if it's a *gulp* size 8 or even 10!

A neighbour and I were discussing sizes one day, because I said I wanted to be a size 8 when I got down to my goal weight, and she said "wow, just keep an eye on things and don't go too far, I wear a size 10", and she is NO WHERE NEAR plus sized!

Hello, sontickle.

You're totally misunderstanding me. It's sad to me that women WORK to have their bones poking thru their skin/clothes because they allow the industry to lead them to believe that it's what society prefers to see on the runway and in magazines. Now, if one has an eating disorder and cannot HELP but be seriously underweight, then I can certainly sympathize and hope that that individual can get the help they need to become a HEALTHY body weight. I believe it is a disservice to ones body to be chronically underweight, as it is to be chronically overweight. No ones perfect, I certainly know this. I cannot expect for my choice of words to keep everyone here happy, and I won't try. That would mean we'd all have the same exact viewpoints and opinions on each topic discussed, and that just ain't happening! Have a great day :D

This This This!!

Many more women are overweight than underweight.

Certainly I have compassion for young women suffering from anorexia, but they are a minority. Those who look at runway models and cannot understand that it is not something to aspire to have other problems.

And frankly, there are measures being taken to move away from the anorexic build models- the minimum BMI that was instituted being one of them. And look at VS type models- they are healthy. Not scrawny.

I completely agree that there is no place for anorexic models - it's true that should not be seen as normal or standard - but what about shows like Mike & Molly? That show received so much positivity about there being a new type of actor/actress that's not a size two or four, BUT those are two clearly obese...is that really something positive to promote? Where is the uproar? If you had two obvious anorexics playing opposite one another, can you imagine what the backlash would be?

I just think that while we jump to point out anorexic models and get angered by normal weight adults used as plus size models, we don't judge nearly as harshly on obesity? Isn't that as dangerous as anorexia?

We are so afraid that young children will look to these models and think they are the norm - how are they going to think that when, as someone pointed out earlier on this thread that 50% of women are a size 14 or higher...

Do you watch Mike and Molly? I don't watch it regularly, but the episodes that I have seen, there is OFTEN mention of being overweight, or discussing attempts to lose weight. Mike and Molly is not a show about 2 obese people trying to pretend they are not obese. They make it obvious, even in the story line, that they are overweight.

I've never once seen a TV show, with thin actors/actresses talking about how unhealthy they look. How com only overweight actors need to address that?

There was some considerable backlash against the new 90210 because the girls were deemed 'too thin'.

This isn't the first time I've seen a similar subject on 3FC. The outrage against model sizing, the horrible examples it sets (not that I am disagreeing), but the complete disregard for how "US" (being the overweight/obese mother) is never really spoken about despite everyone knowing that the parent role model (particularly the same sex parent) having a far more profound effect.

And then of course the inevitable "skinny bashing" that comes along with it. I've been fat and I've been skinny. Skinny, without any effort, when young. And let me tell you, I've had more than a few 'bigger' girls reduce me to tears telling me that I was too skinny therefore "not a womanly', 'not curvy', etc. This sort of comments is not uncommon on 3FC, perhaps a way for girls to try and make themselves feel better by putting other body types down (oh the irony).

This isn't directed towards anyone in particular, just an observation after having spent a few years here.

The thing is, watchers being upset with an actor/actresses weight is one thing, but actually addressing it in the show is completely a different entity in my mind.

Now, I personally have NOTHING against thin women. I have 1 daughter who is very "willowy", as is my mother in law. And, as a bisexual woman, I find women from all spectrums of the scale to be beautiful and sensual.

I believe "thin bashing" is just as nasty and hateful as "fat bashing". I believe, personally, in a world where size of body is irrelevant, and size of heart is incredibly important.

I think, if we can lose the stigma that's attached to weight, we can improve the lives and self confidence of SO many women, on both ends of the scale.