I guess we have to ask what the purpose of modeling is? For the most part, I would guess it is to sell something, and for purposes of this argument, clothing. To that regard, the models shoudl reflect the target market. If you are trying to sell clothing to size 6 women, model it on size 6 women, not size 12 women, and not on size 0- women. Likewise, if you are trying to sell clothing to size 24 women, model it on size 24 women, not size 14 women with fake padding added to them.

If we're using models as an ideal image inspiration- we have problems. In general. I wish that there were a wide range of models reflecting a large range of body types, but there isnt. No matter my weight, I have a gigantic chest, a short torso, really long legs, and a flat butt. I am never going to find a model that fits that profile exactly. And short women? (who are in fact average sized, for the record) Forget it. Instead, we are always going to be idolizing a body that is out of reach for us, due to our own individual characteristics and limitations. As a whole, we need to stop looking at other people's bodies as inspirations for our own, and start working towards what OUR individual ideal is, and we should be encouraging other women (especially young women) to do the same. Even if I pick a healthy role model, say a female athlete, or even Jillian Michaels. When I'm striving for that- I'm still saying that what I am and who I can be isn't going to be good enough. And I'm setting myself up for constant dissatisfaction because I will always be looking for something else- something to be bigger, something to be smaller, the number in the back of my pants to be different. I will never have a round butt, or really defined calves. My muscle structure isn't built that way. I will never be a size 4. Even at 15% body fat, I'm an 8. And, I look like an 8. I will always naturally have large breasts, and unelss I choose to surgically alter them, they will always have a mind of their own as to how they respond to gravity. I may dye my hair, but my eyes are always going to be green, I am never going to have the freckles I find so adorable on other people, my teeth will always be big, the list goes on.
Models, on their own, don't affect our self esteem any more than a store display, a hanger, or a mannequin should. It's our comparisons to models that hurt our self esteem.

annnnnd that's the end of my soapbox rant.

Originally Posted by SouthLake:
If we're using models as an ideal image inspiration- we have problems. In general. I wish that there were a wide range of models reflecting a large range of body types, but there isnt....
Models, on their own, don't affect our self esteem any more than a store display, a hanger, or a mannequin should. It's our comparisons to models that hurt our self esteem.

My concern with using models as "ideal imagine inspiration" isn't actually for grown women, it's for the 11, 12, 13 year old girls (and older) who THINK that because it's in a magazine, it must be what's expected of them. We can tell them it's not, but sadly, kids tend to think that parent's just don't understand.

Originally Posted by jeminijad:
And look at VS type models- they are healthy. Not scrawny.

Neither here nor there, but just my opinion: I completely disagree - I think VS models are very "scrawny" looking. When perusing the VS catalog, I quite often grimace at their arms.

And like I said, just my opinion. :)

Originally Posted by OhMyDogs:
My concern with using models as "ideal imagine inspiration" isn't actually for grown women, it's for the 11, 12, 13 year old girls (and older) who THINK that because it's in a magazine, it must be what's expected of them. We can tell them it's not, but sadly, kids tend to think that parent's just don't understand.

I agree completely. And, I think using anorexic models is unhealthy for everyone involved- especially the models!
Outside of that, I still don't think that changing the models in magazines is going to change the outlook for young women until we, as a society, moms, aunts, friends, mentors, dads, etc. work on the mental aspect of it. Otherwise, there is always going to be something- wanting bigger boobs, wanting to lose weight, wanting smaller arms, wanting longer legs, etc. We can put a completley healthy model on the cover, but that's not going to stop a 13 year old from wanting to look like her, and feeling inadequate because she doesn't.

Originally Posted by SouthLake:
I agree completely. And, I think using anorexic models is unhealthy for everyone involved- especially the models!
Outside of that, I still don't think that changing the models in magazines is going to change the outlook for young women until we, as a society, moms, aunts, friends, mentors, dads, etc. work on the mental aspect of it. Otherwise, there is always going to be something- wanting bigger boobs, wanting to lose weight, wanting smaller arms, wanting longer legs, etc. We can put a completley healthy model on the cover, but that's not going to stop a 13 year old from wanting to look like her, and feeling inadequate because she doesn't.

I agree 100% that we need to change the perspectives of our youth. I think we need to focus on inner beauty, as opposed to outer beauty. I try to do that with my girls, but they are still young (6 and 7).

What it comes down to is, no matter what, we'll always want to change what we have (hence the huge surge in body art). But what I hope for, for my children, is that if they want to change something about themselves, it's with something that marks their individuality (hair colour, tattoos or piercings), rather than something that they hope will make them look just like someone else.

Originally Posted by sontaikle:
That doesn't give anyone the right to say "gross! bones!"

The modeling industry is another issue entirely, but I think it's wrong to go after skinny women in general. There are many naturally skinny women who are just small. I firmly believe that while there are people who can be safely above the "Normal" BMI range that there are people who can be safely below it as well.

I think going after the modeling industry is fine, but we have to be careful how it's done. You can't say "ew, disgusting, you're bony." because there are people out there who are just naturally that way! How do you think they feel when they see that?

I have some friends who fall into that "underweight" range and they don't look as if they're starving and they're perfectly and utterly healthy. They're just built really small. Should we shame them because they're underweight? No, nobody should be shamed because of their body.

It's one of the reasons why I cringe when I hear people describe size 0 as anorexic size or something. If you're short or just small framed, size 0 might be a perfectly acceptable size to get into.

Just as it's wrong to go to an overweight person and yell at them to lose weight, it is wrong to go to a skinny person and tell them to gain.

If they have a health issue that is another matter entirely, but for the most part we should all just accept bodies for their differences and quirks.

No offense, but actually they have the right to say whatever the **** they want. It may not be nice and you and I may not like it, but this is America and anyone can say anything they want. If you don't like it, you may rebuke their comments, but you cannot try to take that right away from them.

Originally Posted by sacha:
You're right - but I think people are looking in the wrong place if they want to blame their child's potential self-image on Coco Rocha rather than their own eating habits. A mother who struggles with weight, self-image, obesity, or an eating disorder (whether at the big or small end of the spectrum) has a far greater impact.

I just find it strange that women will be up in arms about some Paris runway model (which most little girls have no clue about) but will conveniently ignore the "MODEL" that wakes them up, makes them breakfast, sends them to school, stands on her scale each morning, buys a WW cookbook, etc...

I dunno. I'm just looking at my kid while typing this and thinking, is Karl Lagerfeld going to be to blame for whatever happens? Or is it that I am here on 3FC desperately trying to maintain my loss?

Uhhh...where have you been for the last century. Don't we blame EVERYTHING on our mothers? And to pretend that outside forces do not affect our perspectives is truly naive. No one wears high heels because they thought that they were beautiful and would be great footwear to wear. No, they wear them because they saw someone else (probably in an advertisement) wear them. Advertising isn't just a business. It's a truly effective one.

Originally Posted by lm3898:
I completely agree that there is no place for anorexic models - it's true that should not be seen as normal or standard - but what about shows like Mike & Molly? That show received so much positivity about there being a new type of actor/actress that's not a size two or four, BUT those are two clearly obese...is that really something positive to promote? Where is the uproar? If you had two obvious anorexics playing opposite one another, can you imagine what the backlash would be?

I just think that while we jump to point out anorexic models and get angered by normal weight adults used as plus size models, we don't judge nearly as harshly on obesity? Isn't that as dangerous as anorexia?

We are so afraid that young children will look to these models and think they are the norm - how are they going to think that when, as someone pointed out earlier on this thread that 50% of women are a size 14 or higher...

Yes, let's concentrate on the ONE show out of HUNDREDS on TV that has people that aren't underweight or look like "traditional" stars. I don't know what TV you've been watching lately, but just about EVERY show has (at least) two (apparent) anorexics talking to each other. And, they do nothing but talk about being fat or trying to lose weight on Mike and Molly. It's why I stopped watching that show. Why can't two fat people on a show lead normal lives? Why do they always have to constantly talk about their weight? Also, what do you mean we don't judge obesity as harshly as anorexia? This society does nothing but judge obese persons. Clearly, you don't like them.

Oh, and to the person that says that model's haven't gotten thinner, we've just gotten fatter, that's half true. Although the U.S. has gotten fatter over the years, models have also gotten thinner. Compare today's models to models from the 40s or 50s (Marilyn, Rita, Marlene) or even the 80s (Christy, Cindy). Today's models are definitely at least 20 pounds lighter than the models from the 80s. The models from the 80s had thin and fit (slightly muscular) bodies. The models from today are bones and skin.

Originally Posted by lm3898:
I completely agree that there is no place for anorexic models - it's true that should not be seen as normal or standard - but what about shows like Mike & Molly? That show received so much positivity about there being a new type of actor/actress that's not a size two or four, BUT those are two clearly obese...is that really something positive to promote? Where is the uproar? If you had two obvious anorexics playing opposite one another, can you imagine what the backlash would be?

There was an "uproar" when Mike & Molly first aired. A magazine editor talked about how "gross and disgusting" it was to see "two fatties" rolling around.

http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/...-on-television

She later apologized for the insensitive remarks she made regarding people that have weight issues.

Originally Posted by princessgina00:
No offense, but actually they have the right to say whatever the **** they want. It may not be nice and you and I may not like it, but this is America and anyone can say anything they want. If you don't like it, you may rebuke their comments, but you cannot try to take that right away from them.

And if someone called you disgusting and gross due to your weight on here, do you think that would be permitted? Now, I'm not American, but last time I checked, the 1st amendment right to free speech did not exist on a privately-run forum.

Oh, because we're talking about people who are underweight, it is okay??

As for your last condescending comments, nobody is pretending that this stuff doesn't permeate through - but look in your own mirror before condemning others. Me getting upset about the scale at home has far greater on my child than some random Paris runway.

Originally Posted by grneyedmustang:
There was an "uproar" when Mike & Molly first aired. A magazine editor talked about how "gross and disgusting" it was to see "two fatties" rolling around.

http://www.marieclaire.com/sex-love/...-on-television

You're right and what happened? She had to apologize due to the backlash she received. The magazine also apologized on her behalf. Additionally, this is a blogger hired to push the envelope.

I'm sick of reading every day that Leanne Rimes is anorexic or is too thin - where are the headlines that Melissa McCarthy is too fat? It's ok to go after models b/c children might get the wrong idea about their body types but not actresses or actors. People are afraid of their children seeing thin models but not people like Chris Farley, or Kennan Thompson, or Melissa McCarthy?


I don't find humor in or am able to support a show like M&M when faced with the fact that nearly 70% of US adults are considered overweight or obese and 20% of children are obese.

I feel bad for people who are anorexic, I hope they seek help - I feel the same for morbidly obese people...because both are extremely dangerous. Being morbidly obese is not ok, it's not healthy, it's not normal. It is the same as being anorexic - also not healthy, not normal...I just wish that we could equally address both.


To be VERY clear, I do not hate fat or obese people and am not trying to pick on anyone, I just want to know why it's ok to pick apart some modeling criteria and not the other side of the scale when it is clear more people fall on that side.

Originally Posted by lm3898:

To be VERY clear, I do not hate fat or obese people and am not trying to pick on anyone, I just want to know why it's ok to pick apart some modeling criteria and not the other side of the scale when it is clear more people fall on that side.

IMO, "fat bashing" is one of last forms of "acceptable" hate. Just look around, there are people who assume that everyone that is overweight sits around and eats twinkies all day and doesn't exercise - therefore, the people on the other side of the coin catch it as much as the "models". In fact, I think WE catch it more.

If you think that those on the other side of the coin aren't hearing it (I can't tell you how many times I've received my favorite advice in regard to losing weight - "Just move more" or "Just eat less"), here's a few articles that may help you to rethink that perspective:

http://www.ieatreal.com/278
http://www.diet.com/dietblogs/read_b...le=&blid=24234
http://john-kehl.suite101.com/fat-ba...merica-a309966

I am NOT saying that we stick our heads in the sand, sing Kumbaya, and act like this country does not have an obesity problem (and a huge issue with processed foods, but that's a rant for another day). We do. But at the same time, I think it is a bit naive to think that those that are "overweight" don't catch flack or "hear it" for being overweight.

/Drops mic and gets off :soap:

I never said it was OK to bash someone for being overweight, I'm just saying let's not promote it. I get it, I was over weight, I'm not under-weight, I'm still ABOVE average...and I have been teased and bullyed for it. It just really irkes me that all the crap - McDonalds Happy Meals, school fitness budgets being cut etc. etc. etc. etc. etc. and the huge weight problem in the U.S. that we already have to deal with, that now we are having shows come out like this.

I understand body acceptance - but there is something wrong with accepting morbid obesity, the same way it is wrong with excepting a skeletal frame. It is WRONG to bully or bash someone for being over-weight, but it is also wrong that over-weight has become the new average.

Originally Posted by sacha:
And if someone called you disgusting and gross due to your weight on here, do you think that would be permitted? Now, I'm not American, but last time I checked, the 1st amendment right to free speech did not exist on a privately-run forum.

Oh, because we're talking about people who are underweight, it is okay??

As for your last condescending comments, nobody is pretending that this stuff doesn't permeate through - but look in your own mirror before condemning others. Me getting upset about the scale at home has far greater on my child than some random Paris runway.

No one called anyone any names, as far as I'm concerned. *I* said this... "sharp bones poking thru your clothes, blech". And it IS blech, TO *ME*. MY fat rolls and stretch marks are blech to *ME*, too! It's called an opinion, and I simply stated mine. We all have 'em. A person, IMO, should not be tagged 'disgusting' by the way they look. Now something about someone may LOOK 'disgusting' to someone else, but those are two seperate issues, in my book. Yes, I have a book. Would anyone care to read it? hahaha, totally kidding.

Originally Posted by sacha:
You know, I am going to be honest here. Yes, this is a bad example for children, both little boys and girls. Girls, it is so obvious - but boys too. After all, male eating disorders exist, not to mention the "image" of a woman that they look to.

On the other hand - I think we should admit that obesity is also a horrible example and the rising statistics of childhood obesity is a direct reflection as well.

I agree with this comment. I am appalled that the model in that story was only a size 12 and she is considered "plus sized". I am appalled that ever since Kate Moss hit the modeling scene the "ideal" body seems to be more that super-skinny anorexic look than a normal woman. That's not right.

But I also believe that the push for acceptance of obesity has a potential backlash. Don't get me wrong- no one should be discriminated against, mocked or bullied because they are overweight. But at the same token, there should be a push towards achieving a healthy weight.

Whew! Lots of passionate opinions in here! I'd like to just put out a quick reminder of forum rules:

9. Respect toward fellow members is expected. You agree not to harass, flame, insult, taunt, or otherwise disrespect any member of this forum. In other words, if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all. This includes gossiping about another member. This requirement is meant to encourage the overall strength of our support system, and will benefit our community as a whole.

this explains how i can feel fatter than ever at a size 10. it's sad what marketing does to people.

I like toast! :dizzy:

I respectfully disagree that thinner people don't face name calling and general disapproval from society. Society calls people who are naturally skinny or bony all kinds of unpleasant names, and often assumes that they have an eating disorder (ie, referring to "anorexic models") or a drug problem. It's socially acceptable to say these things about naturally thin people, just as it is socially acceptable to say negative things about overweight people. Both, IMO, are wrong.

Consider, for example, the media coverage of someone like Leann Rimes. When she was younger, she weighed more than she does today. She was ridiculed in the media for being "chunky" or "chubby" throughout her teen years.

Now, she is skinnier. I have NO IDEA what methods she uses to maintain her weight, but she certainly is on the skinnier side of things. And now she is being roundly bullied by the media for being "too thin".

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/0..._n_943519.html

Clearly the media doesn't accept Rimes' weight where it is, and she is ridiculed for it, so it's not true that society accepts people who are naturally thin and not those who are heavier. And if Rancic's comment had been the other way? "Gosh, she's had a lot of stress lately, she's really put on weight, and she looks better a bit thinner, she should really come to my house so I can make her a salad". Would that be OK?

For heaven's sake, I just found a thread on a message board where people were voting on whether her frame is due to "meth face or anorexia".

We can't call people "anorexic" on the one hand, then say that "society accepts them" in another. Those are contradictory. Clearly if we're calling them derogatory names implying underweight, they're no less socially accepted than those who would be called derogatory names implying overweight (fat cow, etc). Which I think was Sacha's point in asking why people who have experienced being ridiculed or called names for being "too heavy" according to society's perceptions would think it was somehow different to ridicule or call people names (and "anorexic" is as much name calling as "fat cow", IMO) for being "too thin".

Even at my lowest weight (which was BARELY at a "normal" BMI), I was told the following: "You're obsessed with exercise", "You're anorexic and need to eat more", "You need to eat a hamburger", "You really should cut back on the exercise", and many more. People much skinnier than me get that, to a greater degree. How many comments have you seen on how someone thin needs to "eat a sandwich"?

It's no more OK, on 3FC or, IMO, in general, for someone to bash thin people than it is for people to bash people who are heavier. And we, as a forum, try to discourage BOTH. So, side note, if you DO see people fat bashing OR skinny bashing, please report the posts to the moderators.