AJ buddy, I think now YOU'RE not the one being realistic. I mean, thank G-d scenarios like that just don't happen. No one will EVER be that motivated.

Although, I will say, it came to the point for me, that I DID look at my weight loss as "life or death". And one of the biggest motivators for me was the constant worry about "who would be there for my kids?". Although I certainly worried about that for a long time prior to making the commitment. Guess I had to be worried enough to make the switch.

I so totally agree with this. We *all* have issues in our lives. We all have busy lives. We all have things that we're dealing with. We all have social lives that involve going out with friends and having to deal with restaurants and eating out. And eventually the "I don't have time to exercise" and "I don't like veggies" and "I don't have time to cook" and every other excuse in the book that's been used ... eventually those excuses just don't cut it any more.

It was the same for me just as for everyone. At some point you decide to stop making excuses and start doing it.

.

Interesting scenario, AJ, but I have to agree with JayEll. That's a scenario where you might lose the weight, only to gain it back again. And that's not really a success, in my mind.

"We all know what we should be doing to lose weight, so why don't we do it? It's not like it's a well-guarded secret, I doubt if there is a forum member who doesn't know exactly what to do to lose weight.

So why do we all struggle?"

I may be the only person that has this problem: Self pity! I spent years feeling sorry for myself because so many of my skinny friends could eat whatever they wanted and not exercise and never have a weight problem. I was convinced that it was in my genes to be fat and there was no way I could overcome that. I thought it was a huge mountain that I could never get over. It just wasn't fair that I would have to starve myself and exercise to such extremes to lose the weight and keep it off. It took a shift in my thinking, no longer feeling sorry for myself and spoiling myself. When I finally got so disgusted with the whole thing, the self-hatred, the not being able to do so many things because of my weight, avoiding so many things in my life because of it. Realizing I will die from this if I don't change. I think I had to get to this age, 44, to have the maturity to deal with it. So what if I can't eat like others. So what if I have to exercise five times a week. It is worth it to be healthy and have a better life. I am the only one that can change this and it is do-able! There is so much more to it than that, but the self-pity was really the big one for me. This forum is a huge help!

First Robin may I apologize for calling you Meg in my earlier post, I got myself mixed up with the quote in your sig.

You've missed my point somewhat, Robin. I deliberately exaggerated a scenario in order to illustrate clearly that it really is all down to motivation: Most people would agree that they would lose the required weight in that situation, but what has changed? There are still McDonalds on every street corner, candy bars in every shop and peer pressure wherever you go. NOTHING has changed except one thing - your paradigm.

Of course it's not realistic, but it serves to underline my point.

Well, that's one possible outcome, another could be that the weight not only comes off but stays off. The point being - as I highlighted earlier - the only change would be a change of mind, a paradigm shift.

We are probably all agreed that in my earlier nightmare scenario we would lose the weight, so let's lower the bar a little. What if a doctor told you that if you didn't lose 60 pounds in 6 months you would most likely die before the six months was up?

I submit that no doctor would tell me that, AJ. Not any doctor that understood what happens when weight is lost that quickly.

If you want to do Socratic questions, they may need to be more reasonable.

Jay

This is a very interesting thread. I totally *get* the point AJ is making, even before he had to explain it. Didn't he just say that he was giving a dramatic and exaggerated example deliberately to highlight his point? I didn't read his post as an attempt to be literal or realistic in any way. I also took his 60 lbs. in 6 months as arbitrary, again just used to underscore his point about motivation and weight loss, which I think is the same point Robin has made several times on this thread, using herself as an example. I don't think he meant that a person like you, Jay, at 147 lbs, would ever want or need to lose 60 lbs. in 6 months! Good grief!!

It seems to me he is making the same point Robin is making when he quotes Meg as saying (I'm paraphrasing) that if a person wants it badly enough, weight loss CAN happen. Weight loss is certainly a complicated issue with many factors, emotions, and variables, but I *get* AJ's point (and Robin's).

It's a tough road, and we're all in this together... the fact that we are all here, reading and posting on 3FC, I think, shows that we all believe that we CAN lose weight. And most of us know that it won't be easy; there is no magic bullet, but we must keep trying. I struggle with 10 measly pounds, but the mind over matter issue is huge with me. I know that if I really, really HAD to lose it (for health or because I was at gunpoint or whatever ), I COULD. But I go down and up down and up. And that's what we are all talking about... motivation, mind over matter, etc.

Personally, I think it's bigger than mind over matter. My mind's will to restrict has never been as strong as my body's will to survive (and rightly so).

For a long time, I pitted my desire to be thin against my body's age-old desire to store fat and my will lost every time.

When I looked at it as "mind over matter" my feelings of failure were huge - why was I such a no will power loser who couldn't stick to a diet? I felt shame and self loathing.

I desperately DID want to be thin and I thought I could do whatever it took (mind over matter), it never worked. I always lost some weight, but invariably, my body's desire to live and protect itself from starvation always forced binges - what literally felt like helpless, out of control episodes.

I WANTED to be thin but I didn't know how. In my opinion, all the wanting in the world won't work unless you know WHAT it is you want (the old answer 42 thing).

This last time, I was able to combine my WANT with KNOWLEDGE and I was successful. I don't think my willpower has changed at all, I am still the same person, it was never my WANTING that was an issue.

I guess I also changed what I wanted - the answer was 42 (to be thin). I thought the question was - how do I lose weight? but I had to change the question "how do lose I lose weight, keep it off and live a slim, healthy person for the rest of my life." Changing the question changed everything for me.

I don't disagree with what people are saying here: motivation IS important. Wanting it IS important.

But is that all there is?

What about another extreme situation (and perhaps unlikely, but we've been down that road already). Let's say there's someone who IS motivated, who does everything right -- eating and exercise. Regularly. But she doesn't lose weight because her metabolism is really slow, and the leptin in her fat cells urge her to eat, and she's on steroids, which also cause weight gain. Oh, and she finds it hard to exercise because she... has no arms and legs (yes, I'm reaching... )

Perhaps for this person, motivation isn't enough. Perhaps in this extreme case, a mind shift won't do.

I just think boiling successful weight loss down to mind over matter is overly simplistic. Earlier in this thread I raised similar issues, by discussing some of the complicating factors but no one picked up on that part of the discussion, so I raise it again: isn't it possible many of the issues we're discussing have added layers of complications dealing with bodies that seem to have minds of their own, on some level?

How do we account the real complexities of weight loss and weight maintenance with simplified formulas?

And just to throw a wrench into the equation.....is it really our mind or is it basic science? Is it the foods we put into our bodies that cause us to want to put more food into our bodies and thereby set up a vicious cycle?

The more I read, the more I study, the more I believe it is the type of food that I put into my body that drives my obesity, that drives my desire to overeat, that drives my desire to eat foods that aren't healthy for me. The more I read about insulin and its effect on the body, the more I am less inclined to abuse my body with excess processed carbs.

There are so many complexities to obesity...some of us have abused ourselves for so long that we have metabolic problems that cannot be overcome with 'mind over matter'. I'm not saying that we can't lose weight, I'm just saying that we are all so different that there is no one answer.

Having said that, it's so good to have discussions like this! I think it's very important to be sympathetic to where others are on their journey.

Heather this is SO what I've been trying to say. My answer to "is that all there is?" Is a resounding NO!

Even if you do believe that it is always possible, with enough "will," sometimes the question is "at what cost?" And what if the cost is too high? To add an equally extreme and bizarre example, consider that you've reached your goal weight and are very happy and proud of yourself, and doing well at maintaining. Now your child is kidnapped, and the kidnapper promises to torture your child until you GAIN 100 lbs and kill her if you don't accomplish it in six months. Can you do it? Will you do it? And how long will it take you?

___________

How do we account the real complexities of weight loss and weight maintenance with simplified formulas?

My opinion is we can't. The simplified forumal takes as much real meaning out of the problem, as do our ridiculous scenarios.

I was raised with the mentality that ONLY the motivation mattered. How you lost the weight wasn't important, even to my doctor. I was put on my first diet at age 5, and was a diet veteran by the time I was put on prescription stimulant diet pills at age 12 or 13 (in 8th grade). I pretty much ate little to nothing during the week (too weak to exercise), and a little more on the weekend so I could exercise. Honor roll was also important to me, or I might have done a little better at the weight loss if I (or my folks) would have been willing to sacrifice my studies. Even so, losing weight was still "tooth and nail" difficult (can't imagine what it would have been like without the diet pills). I was able to lose 75 lbs and was within 5 lbs of my ideal weight, when my doctor lowered the boom, that he was lowering my goal weight by another 10 lbs (from the "top" of the healthy range chart to the lower middle).

In hindsight, I am horrified that I didn't have the knowledge and strength to tell the doctor to go to H.E.double toothpicks. But losing weight had become so difficult that the idea of having to lose another 15 lbs, just seemed impossible. Instead of being proud of what I'd accomplished, and decide for MYSELF what my goal weight was, I felt crushed. Instead I felt that none of it had counted, that I'd only be "good enough" if I lost the 15 lbs, and since I really felt that I couldn't, I felt none of what I HAD lost had counted. Stupid, of course, but I was only 17, what did I know?

During gradeschool, highschool, and much of college, I "wanted it" badly enough to damage my body to the point that weight loss is less and less possible. Some of my current health problems are probably attributable to simply the excess weight, but some very well may be caused by the repeated stress of dieting on my body, but I guess you could still say I didn't want it badly enough. I didn't want it badly enough to sacrifice my masters' degree, or my desire to teach college (even though it meant working two jobs), or time with my family.

How much was I willing to sacrifice? Well, I definitely DID sacrifice my metabolism. I did sacrifice much of my social life. By college, I knew that there were men who were atracted to fat women, but I didn't want to date anyone who might try to hinder my weight loss or be disappointed when I lost weight. I believe I sacrificed my healthy in many ways beyond that caused by simply the excess weight.

A friend I had in college knew that she could lose the weight she wanted to if she wanted it badly enough, even though everyone else told her she was wrong. I lost contact with her when she sacrificed her education in order to reach her weight loss goal. She was too weak to continue with classes. I don't know if she ever did reach her goal (75 lbs), or what else she sacrificed to do so, very possibly her life.

If I had learned and addressed the connection between hormones and carbs and my insatiable hunger, I would have been able to reach my goal with a lot less motivation, effort, and sacrifice. I wouldn't have NEEDED more desire and motivation.

I think that minimizing the amount of sacrifice that is necessary to lose weight, is hugely valuable. While it may certainly be possible to lose weight with nothing but motivation, it's very possible that for some people, the sacrifices may be too great.

Just wanted to say to Claire (walking2lose)--I didn't think AJ113 meant that at my current weight, I'd lose 60 pounds. That would be impossible. I assumed I was starting from my start weight--198.

And, what I said still holds. To lose 60 pounds in 6 months would have been too fast for me, even starting there. Also, the loss would have slowed as I dropped. And finally, I'm older, so I'm working with a slower metabolism.

Could I do it? Sure! Many people have lost weight fast like that. But there is a price to pay for rapid weight loss.

The real challenge is keeping the weight off.

Jay

I agree Heather. I think there are many factors, some of which are recognizable and some of which have yet to be identified. This is my third effort losing weight. Why has it worked this time, but not the others?

Motivation is great, but without knowledge and tools, it won't get a person where they want to go. As far as implying that people who post on this board already have the knowledge for how to lose the weight....I'm not sure I have been reading the same board then. I see on this board all the time people desperate for strategies and knowledge. My own knowledge continues to grow.

So I think motivation is one piece. But I think there are other pieces. I might dare to say that some might feel motivation is enough to lead people to these other pieces---ie with appropriate motivation one will seek out knowledge and tools.

Jay, I still think you are taking his analogy too literally and kinda missing the forest for the trees (NO OFFENSE!! ) I thought he was being metaphorical, not literal, and not even referring to you at your current or starting weight. He was simply making a point that weight loss IS possible with enough internal motivation, which as I pointed out, is the same thing Robin has been saying on this thread. That is simply her view. I didn't in any way see her post as one that touted rapid weight loss. She and Robin and Glory and many others seem to agree that weight loss is possible with the proper knowledge and motivation. This has worked for them and others. To a point, I agree with their premise, although I acknowledge that I don't have enough education (or even personal experience) to adequately speak to the efficacy of this premise being a viable one.

And, their point is a debatable point and one with which not everyone agrees. Heather and Colleen have raised the issue that there are MANY complexities - physical, emotional, etc. that contribute to a person's ability to lose AND to maintain. I agree with this too! The realm of obesity and weight loss is in the forefront of study by physicians, psychologist, and scientists- we read new articles and studies every day on this topic. I certainly think Heather is right that boiling it all down to a simple formula of mind over matter is way oversimplifying the issue. Many overweight people exhibit tremendous willpower and determination in many areas of their lives - why can't they apply that will to losing weight? Because it is not so simple. And I sure don't have all the answers. I was trying to clarify what I saw as a misreading of AJ's post.

We all have a lot to learn from those who have lost and maintained. They have done battle and won... and continue the battle every day. We must also learn from our own struggles and journeys - each one is different and no one is better nor worse than an other. I again go back to my point that we are all here trying... trying to be healthier, trying to lose or maintain a loss, and these are clearly difficult things to do in the culture in which we live.