Although I am disagreeing with you, I do not mean this harshly. This is just my understanding and interpretation of the topic.

I think you have found a way, but I don't think you've found the one and only way (not even for all Christians).

As you said, "Jesus, says all over the new testament that we are not supposed to be caught up in the rule of law," but that doesn't mean we're obligated to break any of the rules/laws (either religious or mundane). If rules make your life easier, you're perfectly allowed to follow them (as long as you're not overblowing the significance of the rules, or considering yourself morally superior to those who aren't).

Many early Christians did, and some modern Christians do continue to keep the dietary laws. Some argue that while all food is allowed, that not all food is healthy and wholesome and that God's original laws did and do serve a higher purpose. That God wasn't telling us what we HAD to eat, but was telling us what we SHOULD eat, so there may be health advantages to following the old law, at least more often than not.

Science even backs some of this up. Following the "old laws" do (even today) significantly decrease the liklihood of foodborn illness (which was even more true before modern sanitation and cooking practices). A Christian isn't obligated to eat pork and shellfish, but pork and shellfish even today are more likely than beef and other old-law foods to carry potentially harmful illness.

Also for some people, even some of us Christian people, the structure of a food plan (a diet), allows us to obsess LESS about food, so a diet can help us give food it's proper attention, and no less or more.

For myself, I lived as you suggest for many years (some of those years as a practicing Christian, and some of those years were during times when I wasn't living my faith). Whether I was in Christ or not, "not dieting" did allow me to stop gaining weight, but it didn't allow me to lose weight. It was a peaceful way to live, not letting food control my every thought. Dealing with food only when hungry, and trying most of the time to choosing healthy foods as close to God's creation as possible, but doing so allowed me to maintain, not lose. To lose, I had to restrict my food intake, and to do that I had to know what I was taking in.

Calorie/food intake monitoring is not inherently incompatible with Christian doctrine. The Christian program FirstPlace4Health uses an exchange based program, and focuses on putting Christ first, using a biblical approach to weight loss and overall health management. The "diet plan" doesn't prevent people from doing just that.

http://www.firstplace4health.com/about/

I couldn't find a FirstPlace group in my area, so I chose a TOPS group (which although it's a secular program, also encourages an exchange plan). I'm diabetic, and my doctor also recommended an exchange plan.

I believe in callings, and different people are called in different directions. I believe in gifts, and people are given different gifts, and God asks us to use those gifts in service. How we use those gifts, and how we balance the secular and sacred is not a one-size-fits-all endeavor. It comes in many shapes, sizes, and flavors.

That is so great that restricting your food has helped you to lose weight, however most people who diet, or restrict what type of food they eat, will fail. This creates a strong desire for the restricted food, so they eat too much of the restricted food, knowing that when they start to diet again they may never get another chance to eat that food. Also, if what you are saying is true, can you explain what this Scripture means.

Hebrews 13:8-9 (New King James Version)

8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.9 Do not be carried about with various and strange doctrines. For it is good that the heart be established by grace, not with foods which have not profited those who have been occupied with them.

Especially the part that says Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever.

the definition of Occupied is, to engage or employ the mind, energy, or attention of...

Really, I am not talking to everybody here, but there are people who are compulsive dieters. (I was one of those) If you are not one, I am not talking to you. If you are... In the last ten years, God has given me an amazing amount of Scriptures and I would love to share them with anyone who would like freedom from dieting, and food issues through Christ.

Bootsie, you didn't hurt my feelings at all! And you go with what God tells you to do. However, I am not sure if you were saying that I am tearing apart the work of God for the sake of food??? Like I said, I am just talking to those who are habitual dieters. Those who are like I was, I would try a new diet, have some success, then fail, then start all over with the latest diet. It was an unhealthy cycle.

Bootsie, but please don't go with how you feel, God says in the Bible that Satan can give you feelings (can't find the reference tonight, I will find it tomorrow). You like Joyce Meyers, she talks about how Satan always works in your emotions, and God always works in your brain.

Pray about it, ask God if dieting is taking too much of your time. I know this is a radical idea that doesn't go along with what the world has preached to us. But the Bible has always been contrary to the world. I am not saying go crazy and eat all you want to eat. I am saying, don't worry about what you eat, pray before you eat, ask God to stop you from overeating, and have faith that He will, then... and here is the hard part, trust Him.

Actually I was a compulsive dieter. I was put on my first diet at 5, and spent most of my life on the diet rollercoaster. I've learned that food doesn't come first as long as I'm using my foodplan and avoiding overindulging in "addictive" foods (just as I avoid overindulging in alcohol and other seductively addictive behaviors). Where food is concerned, my food plan just helps me decide whether or not I'm overindulging.

As to Hebrews 13:8-9, I am not a biblical scholar, but it's my understanding that this passage is very specifically talking about religious food observances, both the "old law" of the Old Testament, and pagan food rituals, such as foods being offered to idols and then consumed by devout followers of the particular religion. The issue is muddying Christian religious beliefs, by adopting the religious practices of Jews and pagans in terms of food rituals out of superstition or partial-belief in the religion. It's reminding us that there's no value to be gained by following non-Christian religious/ceremonial food practices.



Modern translations make this more clear such as in

(New International Version)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

9 Do not be carried away by all kinds of strange teachings. It is good for our hearts to be strengthened by grace, not by eating ceremonial foods, which is of no benefit to those who do so.

(Good News Translation)
8 Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today, and forever. 9 Do not let all kinds of strange teachings lead you from the right way. It is good to receive inner strength from God's grace, and not by obeying rules about foods; those who obey these rules have not been helped by them.




To me it seems very clear that this Scripture applies only to religious food observances, not to diet for health or weight loss (unless you make health or weight loss YOUR RELIGION). Only you can determine, with God's grace whether you have elevated your food "rules" to that position in your life. If you had to choose between God and your food rules, would you choose your food rules? If you can say "of course not," then you're in the clear. If you would say "Gee, I'm not sure," then you have a problem.

Also, I think it's important that the emphasis in the scripture is that these practices are of no benefit to their practitioners. I understand that to mean "this is not doing for them (the people who believe in the food rituals), what they think it is" (that is benefiting their spiritual growth).

That doesn't mean it's doing physical harm to them (or necessarily spiritual harm). Rather the Scripture is reiterating that there is no spiritual merit to the food you take in. You do not spiritually benefit from food rituals (and it's fairly specific that the Scripture is talking about religious food rituals, not habits or secular food choices, it's only the religious food observances that are being talked about).

That's my understanding. You may find it helpful to talk to a pastor who has studied Scripture in the original Koine Greek. Our church has had some amazing bible studies discussing Scriptures that are difficult to understand without understanding the original language of the Scriptures. Sometimes the culture of the time is needed to understand the Scripture too. It's very clear (to me) that the first century apostles were not discussing weight loss diets with new Christians. I'm not saying that bible passages can't speak to modern situations which were not a concern to early Christians, but I do believe that stretching the message to specifically fit modern issues in a different way than was intended in the original is, well a stretch.

Since it is clear (to me) that the original was talking about Judaic and pagan religious food ceremonies and rituals, it also seems clear to me that to say that in the modern world it means dieting (and not religious observances from non-Christian religions) would be a huge, and illogical leap. If you've elevated your diet to a religion (and some people do) that's a problem, but it's because you've replaced Christ with the diet. You can follow Christ and follow a diet, just as you can follow Christ and be a sports-team fan. If you love food more than Christ, or if you love football more than Christ, then you've got a problem. If you're on SouthBeach and watch the Packers game, that doesn't mean you're not following Christ.

You didn't explain the part that says, "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever"

Kelli, I apologize....I misunderstood you (I think)...I was assuming you wanted food to be dull and lifeless forever....

Also, (I think) we all thought that your thoughts on this were the ONLY way at first....(I think) you cleared that up.

I do have scripture and commentary on a couple of things you mentioned that I would like to share. As it will take me time to write it out I will share it later today.

GREAT COMMENTS EVERYONE!! Keep them coming....Peace be with you!

I found this last night on our church (LCMS) website.....I think you can change the word hymn to diet and get pretty much the same message.

Why Learn New Hymns? (Part 1)


By Rev. Dr. Paul Grime

Part One of Three Parts

Part 1: Why change?

Change and decay in all around I see.
O Thou, who changest not, abide with me!
(LW 490:2; TLH 552:2)

Only the spiritually blind can deny the truth that we are surrounded by change and decay. Let's consider the second one first.

Decay
Decay is all around us. Put a new car on the road, and it isn't long before it loses its pristine condition: A chip in the windshield, a bit of rust on the door, a noisy muffler. Or build a new house, and see how long before it requires maintenance. Everything in this life will eventually wear out or decay. Most of our possessions will go the way of the junk heap, and our bodies will one day return to the dust and ashes from whence they came.

In response to this rather sobering reality, the triune God enters our decaying world with a message of hope. The few times that the word "decay" is used in the Scriptures, it has one of two meanings. The first is the common understanding that we've been considering? things decay and fall apart.

The second use of that word, however, is the complete opposite. In his Pentecost sermon, the apostle Peter made very clear the following point concerning the crucified Christ: "His body did not see decay" (Acts 2:31). In His death and resurrection, Jesus provides the antidote to the decay of this sinful world. He overcame death and won the victory for us. That doesn't mean that we get to escape this decaying world; rather, with Job, we can confidently say, "I know that my Redeemer lives, and that in the end He will stand upon the earth. And after my skin has been destroyed, yet in my flesh I will see God" (Job 19:25-26).

Change
We also said that change is all around us. Is that ever true! Have you ever sat down to balance your checkbook and suddenly realized that the bank has completely redesigned your bank statement. You were comfortable with the old design, and it worked fine for you. So why did someone at that bank find it necessary to make the change?

Or consider the fast-changing world of computers. It's simply taken for granted that when you buy a new computer, it's out-of-date before you leave the store. And just as soon as you become comfortable with a computer program, the manufacturer releases a new version that supposedly offers all kinds of improvements.

There are all kinds of change in our fast-paced world. Some are mostly cosmetic, like putting a new face on an old product. Quite often we adapt to change without even realizing it. Other times, however, change can be downright frustrating, especially when we don't know what's going on. Change can be scary, especially as the world around us goes faster and faster. And so we live with the fear that if we don't keep up, the world will pass us by.

Our Unchanging God
Change and decay in all around I see.
O Thou, who changest not, abide with me!

What does it mean that God doesn't change? And what does it mean to have a changeless God in such a fast-changing world?

In Malachi 3, God says, "I the Lord do not change. So you, O descendents of Jacob, are not destroyed." That was a tremendous word of hope that God gave to His people. These were the exiles who had returned from Babylon to rebuild Jerusalem and the temple. They had plenty of obstacles to overcome, including their own stubbornness. Yet, God repeated His covenant promise to them. As surely as it was true that God doesn't change, so was it equally true that He would not abandon them, but would keep His promise to be their God.

In the last chapter of the letter to the Hebrews, we hear the same assurance of God's changelessness: "Remember your leaders, who spoke the word of God to you. Consider the outcome of their way of life and imitate their faith. Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever" (Heb. 13:7ó8). Whether it was our grandparents, the Saxon Lutherans who came to this country and formed the Missouri Synod, or even Martin Luther, they all believed in and preached the same Christ. He has not changed, and He never will.

And that brings us to the heart of the matter: If God doesn't change, why should we? And more specifically, as the title of this essay asks: Why should we learn to sing new hymns?

New and fresh expressions of God's Word
Your pastor doesn't preach the same sermon every Sunday? at least you hope not! Rather, he brings the Word of God to you? freshly interpreted and applied. In his preparation, he wrestles with the biblical text, reflects on the current state of affairs in the community, the nation, and the world, and takes into consideration the many concerns of the members of the congregation. He doesn't preach a new truth every Sunday, but instead opens up the treasures of God's Word to show how it speaks to us in every situation in life. The truth doesn't change, but the expressions of it are beyond counting.

Consider this illustration. When a jeweler inspects a diamond, he holds it up to the light to see how the light refracts into a dazzling array of colors. As the jeweler peers in from different angles, the colors shift, revealing an ever-changing hue. It's the same jewel, no matter how you look at it. But it's a jewel that never ceases to amaze us and to entice us to look again and again to enjoy its beauty.

The Word of God is our jewel, and it is full of surprises. As pastors study that Word to preach on it, they uncover new insights that they share with us. The same is true of those who prepare Sunday School materials, devotions, and so forth. And the same goes for hymn writers. Through their craft of rhyme and meter, they put the Word of God into words that we can not only understand but also remember.

So why do we learn new hymns? For the same reason that we listen to new sermons or read newly written devotions. Through Christian poets, God is blessing His church with fresh expositions of His Word that call us to deeper reflection and devotion. Of course, not every hymn is of the same caliber. Some, in fact, are theologically incorrect or poetically inferior. For every good hymn, there are dozens that never make the cut.

What he (EZMONEY) said LOL.

I didn't explain "that part" because I didn't realize that was what you were asking. To me it seemed the only part of Hebrews 13:8-9 that is self-explanatory and perfectly clear (to me). It just goes to show one of the challenges of bible study. Different people can't help but come up with different interpretations, because you bring yourself to bible study, and there's no way around that. You bring your experiences to the table, so to speak.

In my eyes, because the passage is talking about Christians drifting into Jewish and pagan practices (following the religious food practices around them), within that context, I believe "Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever," is a reminder of the danger of allowing Christianity to morph into a hybrid religion. It's a very natural thing for people to do. In general, people find it easier to blend new beliefs with their old ones, rather than "convert." I think the passage is warning for Christians not to incorporate other religious beliefs and practices into Christianity.

It's a bigger challenge than it seems. Because it's such a natural impulse for people to incorporate the traditions of the people around them. Look at decorating and hiding eggs for Easter - originally a pagan custom. Taking the custom isn't un-Christian, but if we had taken the pagan meaning and incorporated it into Christianity, that would have been wrong. That the original meaning has been lost (except possibly to historians) means that we didn't incorporate the pagan religious significance of the egg into Christianity.




I like discussing Scripture, but after a while my head starts to hurt, because I do see so many ways to interpret them. It's why I don't often try to interpret Scripture entirely on my own. I'm too "creative" for my own good, and I can often come up with at least a dozen possible messages for some passages (some of them at odds with each other - they all can't possibly be equally true). That's why I like group bible studies better, especially if they're pastor-driven, because it's good to have some guidance form someone with theological training. I'm not saying I can't think on my own, but I've so often in the past felt "devinely inspired" by a passage only to realize later that I clearly had misinterpreted it. So it wasn't God speaking to me, it was my human ego (I AM NOT accusing you of this, just stating my own personal experience).

Hey All,

I must admit, I am a bit confused by your answer Gary, are you saying that it's okay to compulsively diet because it's like a... new hymn? Or a new sermon? Or are you saying that it's okay to explore new things, like letting go of the security blanket of dieting and just give it over to God.

Bootsie, I wasn't upset at anyone when I said it makes me sad that every time I start a thread every body starts telling me about their latest diet, (although looking back on how I worded that I can see why you would think that) I wasn't sad for me, I was sad because it seems like we are so in bondage to food and dieting. I love you! you are my sister. I have actually laughed out loud at some of the stories about your animals, you have the best personality ever, and I really think you need to write a book.

Kaplods, Hummm. I guess if you think that Hebrews 13:8-9 is only for the Old Testament laws and not for today, how do you pick and choose which ones were for the time they were written and which ones are for us today? You said
These are the people I am talking to, I was one of these people, I dieted compulsively, My weight and what I ate or did not eat was the first thing I thought of, when I woke up and the last thing I thought of when I went to sleep. It was always at the top of my brain. I was either depressed or happy, depending on what point of the diet, success, fail, cycle I was at. That is no way to live. So if this is not you, then don't worry about it, this thread is not for you, however... I am not saying you should stop posting. I just don't want you to worry that I am talking to you if this does not apply.

I am talking to those of you who are tired... so tired, Jesus loves you and He offers you freedom from this madness. Matthew 11:28 (New King James Version)

Matthew 11:28 Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

It's not will power that will give you freedom, it's His power. Trust Him. Pray, ask God if it's the food that has made you overweight or if it has been the dieting rules. I know it's scary, God has just this week confirmed this to me. I have been fighting with Him about this for months! How scary is this! To just let go. Give it to Him. If I just trust Him, and eat whatever, and whenever, just praying that God will not let me overeat, will that work? I am scared! But I know, that I know, that I know, that this is what He has revealed to me through His Word, and I know, that I know, that I know, that He has told me to tell others.

I don't know if you know this, but I am a very timid person. I have always hated controversy. One of my worst fears was that somebody might yell at me or get mad at me, but God told me last night that my ministry will cause a lot of controversy, but when I got scared, He reminded me that His did too.

Proverbs 27:6 (New King James Version) 6 Faithful are the wounds of a friend, But the kisses of an enemy are deceitful.

Hi Keli and all, just wanted to check in. I did not weigh this morning first time in a long time, but what good would it of done never went to bed last night. Since 1 PM yesterday have walked 13 miles mainly in the house cleaning and have a long way to go. I decided I am going to put our Christmas tree up in my Mother in laws kitchen where the Siamese twins (cats) cannot get to it but I have to put a lock on the door for they have learned how to open the doors! I have to get to bed tonight and get some rest, for I have to go to town tomorrow. You know I am not hungry but I feel like road kill have had no supper at all, just wore out.

You misunderstood what I said completely. I did not say or mean that Hebrews13:8-9 is not just as true and applicable today as it was when first written, but the meaning has not changed. The scripture was about religious food practices (foods eaten to gain spiritual benefit), and that's still what it is about (in fact, the scripture even stresses the unchanging nature of the message). It was about religious food rules then and it STILL is about religious food rules (not secular ones. It's only your spiritual outlook on food, not your secular one that's being addressed). It is still every bit as true today that Christians should not incorporate other religion's religious food practices into Christianity.

If you want to give up pork because you believe it's unhealthy, that's fine. But if you want to give up pork because you think maybe Muslims and Jews are correct that we are disobeying God if we foods the Old Testament forbids, then you're wrong, because Hebrews13:8-9 tells us so.

If you want to follow Jewish kosher law, because you think it's physically healthy, God does not forbid it (as far as I understand). You just need to know that following kosher law (even for health) doesn't have any effect on the pureness of your soul or the level of your devotion to God.




You said, "If I just trust Him, and eat whatever, and whenever, just praying that God will not let me overeat, will that work?"


I think the answer is maybe, but not necessarily. I pray that it does work for you, but it didn't work for me. I had to find a different path to put food issues in their appropriate place in my life. Thoughts of food and dieting no longer occupy my mind constantly (because I learned that when I keep carb levels low, they don't trigger the hunger and cravings I experienced most of my life).


For me, the physiological was very important. The carb-addiction. To some degree what you're saying seems to me like telling an alcoholic that if they trust in God they can drink whatever alcohol, and whenever, just praying that God will not let them overindulge.

And there are Christians who do believe that, and even a few who have found it true, but others have failed at it, and have had to impose external (secular, non-religious) rules along with their prayers to help control their behavior.


I wish you the best, but I think I will stop posting, because I don't sense that our conversation is going in a helpful direction.

I must admit, I am a bit confused by your answer Gary, are you saying that it's okay to compulsively diet because it's like a... new hymn? Or a new sermon? Or are you saying that it's okay to explore new things, like letting go of the security blanket of dieting and just give it over to God.


Hummm ~ I am confused Kelli as to how you got that out of what I posted. My feelings of the commentary I posted was that it was saying that Jesus has never changed but as a society we change...we change on how God's WORD (even though it doesn't change) changes in how it is presented to us.

I thought the commentary was useful in the understanding of Jesus never changing...even though it was about hymns.

For example if our Pastors were teaching us that our bodies are Temples created by God, with which to glorify Him, and we are supposed to take care of them in ways to be pleasing to Him then a pastor from the 1800's surely wouldn't be talking to us about the hazards of fast food.

Anyway moving past that.....I feel it is very wrong to try to compare what the legalistic Judaizers were teaching on ceremonial foods (Hebrews 14: 9-10) and what foods and diet restrictions some people are trying to follow.

I totally understand and agree with you that some people...Christians...make food and diets their "jesus"....and focus on that instead of Him sometimes.

People that choose to follow diet guidelines are not returning to the law of the old covenant.

In Romans 14:1-4....

The Weak and the Strong

1 Accept the one whose faith is weak, without quarreling over disputable matters. 2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The one who eats everything must not treat with contempt the one who does not, and the one who does not eat everything must not judge the one who does, for God has accepted them. 4 Who are you to judge someone else’s servant? To their own master, servants stand or fall. And they will stand, for the Lord is able to make them stand

Kelli, Paul tells us here that the strong Christian's understanding of the Gospel allows him to recognize that one's diet has no spiritual significance.

I think when most of us read your original post we felt you were trying to include everyone into your thinking on this matter. You have since clarified that

Because of the love Jesus has for us He wants us to share our faith...we all share in different ways.

The important stuff is what HE did for us....there is no arguing that....IT IS FINISHED!

the rest of it we will debate for earth's eternity

to you all.