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Old 10-25-2006, 08:53 PM   #16  
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L144S - Once again the harsh voice of reason in the pets forum!

I know you mean well in your breeding efforts, but it sounds like the operation you've got here puts you in the class of "backyard" or "hobby" breeder. Genetic testing and all sorts of other precautions and vast experience with the breed of dog and breeding practices are very important, and that doesn’t sound like what's going on here. Any breeding should be done for the betterment of the breed and should be left to the pros. Bringing more puppies into the world, as cute as they may be, indirectly sends more dogs to shelters and more dogs put to sleep. I think you'd be better off getting your dog spayed and enjoying her for the wonderful companion she is.
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Old 10-25-2006, 08:56 PM   #17  
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I agree with the post above.

Sure the thought of having puppies might be cool... but think about it in the long run.

There a millions of dogs that die each year because they have no home.

Please watch this:
http://brightlion.com/InHope/InHope_en.aspx
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Old 10-26-2006, 02:32 PM   #18  
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Oh my,

You know, I watch these kinds of videos often, and they always make me cry...my stomach turns and I feel nauseous.

My little one, Geo (8 months) just got spayed last Wednesday, and I would have NEVER even considered any other option.
When we brought her home as a tiny baby in April, the first thing our neighbour asked us was "are you going to breed her?" to which my reply was a horrified "No!"
The video above shows the reason why.

Lilybelle..I know you have the best intentions and I know you are a wonderful person. It is obvious that you love your dog very much. I'm glad you are going to get her spayed.

Please consider this. If you feel she MUST have this litter of puppies, maybe you should draw up an adoption contract. Do home checks to see that the home they will go to are suitable. Have the puppies spayed/neutered before they leave your home (hopefully there's a vet in your area who does pediatric spay/neuters) or at the very least, include in the contract that they MUST be fixed or they are to be returned to you. Also, include a stipulation that if an adoption should not work out for ANY reason at any time...the pups should be returned to you, and only you. Not given to friends or family...not dropped off at a shelter...not sold. If you bring these lives into the world, you are responsible for anything that happens to them, for the rest of their lives...even if it's 10 years from now.

I don't want to be harsh or unkind, but even people who seem like they will be perfect homes will sometimes dump their pets at the first sign of trouble or inconvenience. Nobody's pets should be having babies, period.

Here's another horrifying video to prove this point. Knowledge of the truth is very powerful. You can't fight what you are not aware of. Warning, EXTREMELY GRAPHIC, like the one above.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLtrq...elated&search=


Linda
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Old 10-26-2006, 03:33 PM   #19  
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another good one, thanks Linda.

And I agree about the contact.
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Old 10-26-2006, 03:40 PM   #20  
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Thanks for sharing that video, so so sad. I get so upset when I see animal abuse, no different than a human!
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Old 11-04-2006, 08:23 PM   #21  
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Um...what the heck?

Yes, it's terribly sad that dogs die each year because no one wants them..but HOW is this Lillybelle's problem????

If you all are so darn concerned about homeless animals, then go adopt one yourself. There is nothing wrong with having her dog attempt to have a litter. And all of this flim-flam of 'upholding the breed' is a load of crap. It sounds to me that if she wanted top-of-line pedigree merchandise, then she'd go pro. But she just wants puppies, people. From her own dog. What's the big deal?

You all should be ashamed of yourselves for attacking someone thusly for her personal choice. Spay and neuter the puppies before they leave home? Come on, people. Are you going to pay for that vet bill? What if the future owner didn't want that? Contracts!? My God. Who in the heck signs a contract stating to spay/neuter an animal? Not me. That's the owner's personal choice.

Don't get me wrong, I support the spaying/neutering of domestic animals. But if my neighbor's dog/cat was not..I wouldn't cry and fuss about it nor point my fingers in blame.

Man. Get real people. Lillybelle, better start praying heavenward now because according to these folks you are on a one way trip in the other direction.
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Old 11-04-2006, 09:45 PM   #22  
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With the careless breeding attitudes as expressed above, no wonder millions of unwanted dogs and cats are euthanized every year. The misinformation about the "needs" of these animals is staggering. The benefits of spaying/neutering are clear, well-established, and obvious. I just shake my head at posts like that above...
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Old 11-05-2006, 12:57 AM   #23  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by freiamaya View Post
With the careless breeding attitudes as expressed above, no wonder millions of unwanted dogs and cats are euthanized every year. The misinformation about the "needs" of these animals is staggering. The benefits of spaying/neutering are clear, well-established, and obvious. I just shake my head at posts like that above...
Woah now. What is careless about it? Two dogs. Male, female = Puppies. I think that allowing her lab to breed with another is fine and dandy because it's her personal choice. Others are pointing their fingers at her for doing such and are blaming her for 'dirtying' the gene pool...when all she wants is puppies? She said she found homes for the majority of the litter, save for one for her and the male's owner.

All I'm saying is that it's wrong to point fingers and attack her for wanting puppies from her own dog. And I find it hilarious that those who are snobbing at lillybelle for doing this are fur-moms to what appears to be a black lab and what could possibly be the cutest boston terrier in existence, both of which can be assumed to not have been rescued. (Though, that is an assumption.) To me, purchasing a cat or a dog is far more a crime against those who have been abandoned then begetting a litter from their own dog. (Especially when responsability has already been assumed for the litter!)

I never said that I was all for letting domesticated animals run rampant and screw eachother, thus contributing to the problem that is already in abundance. But if someone doesn't want to spay/neuter their animal and maybe wants them to have a litter or two...that's their personal choice. What's the big deal with that? I'm all for it. What I don't support are irresponsible owners that mistreat their furry family members or allow them to mate and contribute to the problem when spaying/neutering comes free or next to nothing to poor people in our area.
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Old 11-05-2006, 11:37 AM   #24  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Allycatisfat View Post
To me, purchasing a cat or a dog is far more a crime against those who have been abandoned then begetting a litter from their own dog. (Especially when responsability has already been assumed for the litter!)

I never said that I was all for letting domesticated animals run rampant and screw eachother, thus contributing to the problem that is already in abundance. But if someone doesn't want to spay/neuter their animal and maybe wants them to have a litter or two...that's their personal choice. What's the big deal with that? I'm all for it.
Ally, You make the assumption that people that do back yard breeding assume responsability for the litter. MOST if mot all do not they sell the litter just like a reputable breeder does. The difference is that a reputable breeder has take the time to choose a mate for their dog to enhance the breed, not promote joint and eye and other genetic problems and they work hard at maintaining the overall standard of the breed. BYB tend to do what feels good, think that because the neighbor has a dog, all is well and aren't the pupies cute. they have not spent time to test their dog for genetic defects andhope to gain a few bucks. Most reputab breeders barly eek out any money, based on what it cost for the x rays, genetic testing, stud feed (if you have the mother) pre natail for the puppies and post birth vactinations. These BYB are responsible for the influx of things like cacapoos, puggles and godendoodles. all of whch are mutts fetching thousands of $$. in some places.

Yes I purchsed my Dixie, I spent 14 years with a recue dog that had hip dysplasia, eye and joint problems. I love this breed and after spending THOUSANDS of dollars to keep this pet healthy over the years I wanted a chance a pup free of genetic problems.
I have rescued 5 cats in my adult life, 7 dogs that have moved on to wonderful homes and feel just fine about my purchase. Frankly if i had gotten a dog from rescue, or a shelter I would have donated the same amount it would have cost me to to that orginization to help other animals.

The contract I spoke of frankly is a standard for most breeders. They too want to continue with the betterment of whatever dog/cat they love and want to continue to be geneticly defect free.

Unfortunatly the "attack" apears to be on lilly, but it isn't just her, it is all the people who do the BYB for what ever the reason,my dog is the best dog in the world, make a few bucks, or even I can't bother to fix my pet. You are making the assumption that BYB take responsability for the litter. How? by selling them to people that are going to feel the same way,? Giving them away? I don't understand what the level of responsability you are speaking of. Responsability to me comes from proper vet care, vacinations, proper grooming, good food and shelter, trainning to make them good pets that won't end up in the shelter because no one bothered to teach them the rules of the house, and helping your pup through its senior years, not from selling pups because they are cute. it is the mentality that everyone deserves the right to do whatever they want with their pets, and it is true they do, but it is the hard working people in the shelters and resues that end up cleaning up the mess of BYB. That is what the big deal is all about.

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Old 11-05-2006, 11:45 AM   #25  
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Never had a "pure breed" animal - ALL have been from humane societies. As for letting a dog breed BECAUSE YOU WANT IT TO is, as far as I am concerned, irresponsible. Volunteer like I do at the local humane society, spend a few hours with those animals who have just been euthanized because some owner thought it would be "cute" to see more puppies and kittens without regard for the consequences to them when they lose their "cuteness", and then talk to me. This breeding is selfishness at its height. And I agree, I DID urge the cute boston terrier owner to get a humane society dog and got soundly blasted for it, but all one can do is try. I still think breeding a housedog "just one more time" is ridiculous, unfortunate, and shortsighted. And YES it IS my business, as I am the one who, with my tax dollars that support the humane society and my volunteer time that puts me where my money goes, gets to deal with the aftermath while still MORE animals are bred irresponsibly in my community thanks to the attitudes that you express. Help control the pet population and SPAY/NEUTER your pet.

Last edited by freiamaya; 11-05-2006 at 12:12 PM.
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Old 11-05-2006, 12:22 PM   #26  
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Quote:
Glad you've got homes lined up! With labs being so popular (and overpopulated), it's a bit of a worry for a lot of breeders.
I think I'm sticking to what I said before, which I thought about a lot before going off the deep end one way or the other.

As a fancier of the breed, a breeding for breeding's sake by someone who doesn't know much about breeding makes me profoundly uncomfortable.

As a person who got into the breed with a "back-yard-bred" dog at a reasonable price, I try not to cast stones. I loved my BYB boy with all my heart and miss him still.

But then again, I know that I got VERY lucky with a newspaper dog that didn't have any genetic problems that affected his quality of life until he was elderly (eventually, his hips or back were arthritic, but at age 11 it was too late to worry about why... and no, I never bred him...).

But then again, even the most stellar pedigree is a crap shoot, and I still feel lucky that my current dog (darn good breeding) remains healthy and has passed all his genetic clearances so far.

I would probably never buy a dog with a limited registration or a spay-neuter contract. I take care of my dogs; I want the responsibility, and feel insulted at the implication that I can't handle it and shouldn't be given it. AND I think it's a terribly slippery slope to slide down to require this sort of thing on any sort of government level, or, for that matter, for it to become the cultural norm that it's irresponsible to have an intact animal at all.

On the other hand, I think it's any breeder's right and responsibility to decide to require that of their own puppy buyers. I think in some circumstances, it is absolutely the right thing to do. Perhaps this is one of those circumstances--I wouldn't presume to decide for anyone over the internet. (Who am I to decide? Who are any of you?)

But sometimes I think spay-neuter contracts or limited registration is a cop-out, in place of selling to responsible owners that have been carefully screened. And sometimes I think it's a marketing ploy. And I think the occassional breeder uses it with some breeds to keep the competition out of the ring or keep new fanciers out of the special circle. But then again, isn't it a serious breeder's right and responsibility to protect their kennel name and reputation?

And I did say "probably" above--I'd probably make an exception under the right circumstances.

Could the bottom line here be that this woman has the right to do what she wants with her pet, whether anyone approves or not?

Could it just be that the issue is complicated?

And so I'll say again,

Quote:
Glad you've got homes lined up! With labs being so popular (and overpopulated), it's a bit of a worry for a lot of breeders.
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Old 11-05-2006, 12:53 PM   #27  
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Never had a "pure breed" animal - ALL have been from humane societies. As for letting a dog breed BECAUSE YOU WANT IT TO is, as far as I am concerned, irresponsible. Volunteer like I do at the local humane society, spend a few hours with those animals who have just been euthanized because some owner thought it would be "cute" to see more puppies and kittens without regard for the consequences, and then talk to me. This breeding is selfishness at its height. And I agree, I DID urge the cute boston terrier owner to get a humane society dog and got soundly blasted for it, but all one can do is try. I still think breeding a housedog "just one more time" is ridiculous, unfortunate, and shortsighted. And YES it IS my business, as I am the one who, with my tax dollars and volunteer time, gets to deal with the aftermath while still MORE animals are bred irresponsibly in my community. Help control the pet population and SPAY/NEUTER your pet.
I don't think it's about a "cute" issue at all. My dog, growing up, was a Rodesian Ridgeback. My mother and brother found her as a puppy in the wintertime (We live in Florida, so she wasn't in the snow or anything.) in the mall parkinglot. She was dirty, sick, and very skinny. We had assumed that she was a lab mix and since she had no tags and was obviously in need, my mom snatched her and took her home. When we took her to the vet, the vet revealed that she was a pure bred dog.(We thought maybe the pet store had lost her or something? Could never figure out why a pure bred puppy was lost and starving in a parking lot.) But to us, she was just our dog. Her value to us was the fact that she was now furry family and not something we could make money off of. Low and behold, we found another rodesian owner in our area. We bred her with that dog in the BYB way as you call it. None of her puppies were sold. None. She had four puppies. One went to our neighbor who was very close to us (and loved Daisy to) that had recently lost one of her dogs to old age. One went to my Grandpa. The other two stayed with us..because we wanted to have her legacy, not because it was "cute". The only way I can put it into words as explanation is that Daisy was our furry kid, and her puppies were our furry grandkids. No one profited from the experience in terms of wealth.

I hear you about the situation. My fiance and I volunteer to. All my cats growing up were rescued or given to us because the owners were moving away or their condos were banning pets. My neighbor (who took Daisy's puppy) was the same. Between us, there had to have been 25 animals. Yikes. (Thankfully, we both had big, fenced in yards.) I try to go to the animal shelter once a month to walk the dogs and take the cats out of their cages. I'm a cat (and bird) lover, my finace is a dog lover. It's heartbreaking. All the people who volunteer and work for the shelter really care.

I wish I could take them all home with me but my landlord will only let me have the one cat I do have (my feral rescue who's now a big, lazy butterball of snuggliness.) I always end up leaving in tears. My point is, I feel your opinion but I don't begrudge Lillybelle either for her wanting her fur-kid's kids, either.

PS. How is the capturing of your neighborhood feral going? Did you get him yet?


L144S - I understand your points to an extent. By responsability for the litter, I ment she had already undertaken future plans for the puppies. (Found homes for them.) How do you know that she has not already secured medical care for the puppies? You don't. And you point fingers. If she sells them, that's her choice. If I was her, I would sell them to...for the cost it took to get shots and medical examinations so that I was not out so much money..but that certainly would not be a "profit". Maybe she knows these people personally and know that the future owners of these puppies will be taken care of, get them their shots, and whatnot. Seriously, you said you had rescue animals that you found good homes for. Would you have just turned them out to any ole body? No. I'm sure you made sure that the people that recieved these animals were loving, responsible owners. So why assume that Lillybelle would not do the same? How is she in the category of irresponsability when you don't even know the circumstances. It is wrong of your to be so harsh and critical of someone's situation that you don't even fully know the extent of.
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Old 11-05-2006, 12:56 PM   #28  
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I have to add that my dog and the breed dog are very well taken care of. I didn't let my dog run loose to be bred by just any dog, which would have given us Mutt puppies that would have been hard to find homes for. I already have good homes lined up for the puppies. Her only previous litter, I know where every single pup is at and there were 14 of them. Several of her previous puppies are with the police department and being used as cadaver and drug sniffing dogs, 1 is with my BIL and is a trained duck hunting dog, 1 is with my niece(it is spayed) and is her family pet. 2 of them are being used as seeing eye dogs. My BIL is a veterinarian and knows the complete history on the male and female dogs and they both have a completely clean bill of health. Another pup is with my SIL and is trained for duck hunting. Every single puppy had all of it's shots prior to being sent to new homes. I will add that with the cost of food and caring for the puppies, and vet bills, I might have profited $50.00 per pup if that much. The 8 weeks of sleepless nights, clean up of puppy waste, bathing them, worming them and vet trips made up for any profit that was had. I'm not doing this for money. Otherwise, I wouldn't give a care, sell each pup for $300.00 (the going rate where I live) and let people worry about their own vet expenses.

I appreciate the input. I have rescued many animals over the yrs. from the shelter and also taken in many strays. Had them spayed or neutered every single time. I have sent the male dog home and do not think they bred while he was here. She is no longer in heat. I'll wait 6 weeks before having her spayed. The next time I have a question about my dog, I'll ask my BIL who is the expert, not the people on here who just THINK they are.

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Old 11-05-2006, 12:59 PM   #29  
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LUV,
I do agree with you. The truth is, how many of the pups from a litter are really "perfect enough" and an owner really does not have the full picture until the animal is at least 2, to continue on as good breeding stock. i personally did not mind signing a contract because I have no intention of going in the show ring or breedingmy dog I could still do tracking, rally-o and obediance with an altered aninmal.

Any kennel (breeder) selling to another breeder knows that this is what the owner is looking for and will develop a contract to suit the need of the owner. In general most kennel owners are looking for a good companion and as you and I both know labs make great ones. to have a contract that says so is not a problem for me, but if I was a kennel owner, I would not be looking for a BYB nor would I be looking for a pet I would be looking for the best breeder I could find with the right liniage to continue the betterment of the breed, which is why your pup is who he is, so taking this down to the pet level is more the issue than the person looking to gain titles and alike.

People that own dogs have EVERY right to do exactly as the please with the animals, but encouraging them to be concerned with the ultimate outcome of cute pups or just because I feel like it is really the point here and a contract is one way for an owner to be responsable for what the ultimate outcome would be for these pets. It also means that if these dogs end up ia rescue/shelter it is one less concern for the new onwner if the pups become so lucky. This is not the case with the dog fanciers. it is an apples and orange comaprison.
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Old 11-05-2006, 01:24 PM   #30  
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Lillybelle,

I'm glad on all counts--your puppies are well-placed, your dogs are well-cared-for, and...

now you know all about how awful talking about dogs on the internet can be! It's a special world--Aren't you a lucky gal to have gotten into the thick of it?!

L144S--

I think we're on the same page here, minor distinctions and perspectives aside.

That said, the world of high-quality lab pups without strings attached is getting smaller and smaller--in many practical/overpopulation ways I think that's a very good thing, in other ways I think it's a shame. A pet owner should have an opportunity to become a fancier--without the option, the dog sports become increasingly professional and elitist, and I think one could argue that the gene pool is pressured in unusual ways.

Then again, without unusual pressures in the gene pool, labs wouldn't be labs. All dogs would be Australian schnauzer-doodle-whatever-poos. (And I'm sure the Australian schnauzer-doodle-whatever-poo is a fine dog in its own right--please don't anyone take offense!)

Oh well--I'm off to train my dog! (Geez, one would think that after three and a half years he'd be "trained"... what have I gotten myself into... )
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