[SunDrop]

Hi guys!

I have a question for you knowledgeable women. The plan I am following is low-fat as well as low carb. In my book it says that I should choose low fat dairy products etc. because I'm trying to keep my calories under 900 4 days a week and under 1300 3 days a week, and fat has more calories per gram than carbs and lean protien.
So here's the thing I would love to use heavy cream in my coffee or 4% cottage cheese. I think it would add some real quality of life points to my day.

Would I be just crippling myself if I added it. Is there some mystery factor to this low carb eating that I am not getting?? I don't hit ketosis every single day just 2 days a week. I am enjoying my results, about 3.5 pounds a week and I'm rarely hungry and I feel very energetic. I don't want to screw this up but reading the shakes thread had my mouth watering with all the heavy cream and whole milk you guys who follow a lower carb diet get to use.

Can someone tell me where the fat that you eat every day goes??
Could I maybe just use heavy cream on my ON days when I'm hitting ketosis?

Any thoughts on this would be helpful.

[Leenie]

I can only tell you that the fat I eat goes right to my big belly, I wish it would go on a few people I know but thats another story in itself

I don't see the cream in your coffee hurting you especially since your on low carb. Sorry I can't be of more help.

Leens

[jiffypop]

someone wiser than me is bound to come along later, but i don't see the harm in using little heavy cream in a cup or two of coffee. and some ladies dilute the cream with water, so that they don't need as much.

as for cottage cheese, i HATE the low fat stuff... the 4% tastes much better. again, i think the key is portion control.

and even 4% milkfat cottage cheese doesn't have many calories!!!

good lluck! i'll be interested in what others say

[SunDrop]

Thanks ladies. I appreciate you confirming what I was hoping for.
I think I'll have cream or half and half in my coffee on my On days. My Dr. already told me that if I'm going to veer off the diet I should do it in the fatty direction rather than the starchy direction.

And 4% is a whole lot better than fat free cottage cheese, I whole-heartedly agree.

[nasus40]

why is the doc having you on 900 for 4 days at a time?

and in essence it is the insulin that will make your body store the fat more. ys fat will slow down the weight loss but not that mush. how do you count your cals? do you use a food counter or doyou guess?

[goodforme]

Dr. Atkins says use heavy cream INSTEAD of milk which has a lot of carbs. I don't even check the fat/calories in it, I just use it! Sorry couldn't be more help!

[L144S]

Humm, I personally like the 2% stuff. I use soy milk for coffee of 1/2 and 1/2.

I am going to be the Rainer on the parade...I think 900 cals and 1300 cals is really low for a person of your weight. Not to be mean but it seams to me it boarders on starvation to the body particularly if you are exercising as well. I assume this is a Dr diet...but taking a look at very low calorie diets like optifast, (different from low carb I know but still low calorie comparison) in the long run the people that did that ended up fatter then when they started.

I am a WW and do believe in low carb, but even ww puts you into a much higher caloric bracket.

Just concern for a fellow chick and life long dieter....please forgive me if I have over stepped, I wish only success and ease and lifetime achievement.

-L

[MamaJ]

I have been keeping this big Tx mouth shut....but I've been thinking the same. Why in the world does your doc have you on such a low calorie plan?

I stayed at goal weight for a bit over six years when I started eating wrong (LF for the doc) and put on about ten pounds. I went to a nutritionist (at a friends suggestion due to my age) and he put me on HIS plan. Once I went off of his plan AND the phen-fen I gained 12 pounds in one month.

Please hon, don't misunderstand, I do not mean to suggest that this will happen to you, but could yu share a bit more about your plan?

Out of concern -

J

[jiffypop]

interesting thoughts ladies. now, let's talk about the starvation mode we all know too well. it looks as if sundrop's doc is trying to fool her body into NOT going into starvation mode. she gets nearly 50% more calories 3 days a week! proportionately, that's a big chunk!

just wondering... and sun drop... please excuse us talking adn speculating without benefit of real knowledge.

my adorable surgeon tells us that in order to break a plateau, we have to eat more calories for a couple of days, then get really strict, and push more water and more exercise. of course, all i did was eat a little more for a couple of days, then get strict, and i lost 5 pounds in a week...

[MamaJ]

I just knew that you'd have more info!

I can understand the on/off due to the starvation mode BUT what IS THE PLAN?

Sorry, but I've been to the nutrionist that helped send my body into chaos which I am still recovering from. I am only concerned, hon.

I don't mean to meddle. (Listen to some of these great chicks and you can't go wrong !!!)

J

[Giggles]

Hey SunDrop!

Let me add a few thoughts to this discussion.

First, I guess you are following a book's diet plan, but we do want to know which book, or is it your MD who gave this plan to you?

Secondly, if you are watching for ketosis, the high fats in the cream and the cottage cheese, depending on the amount of total fats you consume, could fool you into thinking you are burning fat from your body, when in reality you may be burning the fats you are eating. Don't misunderstand: I am not suggesting you should not use the cream or 4% cottage cheese. Just be aware that if you take in lots of fats (I didn't see the shakes thread, but I have made some "to die for" key lime pie and cheesecakes which are lethal) you might show positive on the keto-sticks but it may not be accurate.

That said, I need to agree with those who suggested 900 calories may not be wise for you. Now (watch out, I tend to lecture so much you may fall to sleep out of boredome right here at your computer) let me explain some of the reason it may not be a good idea to decrease your calories too low.

The body cannot lose more than 1 or 2 pounds per week of adipose tissue (fat) on a diet. It simply is not a medical possibility (I have heard this from a few sources). And if you are losing more than this, you may be losing muscle tissue and may not be having enough bilding blocks to make goodies like antibodies, blood, neurotransmitters, and other essential substances which are constantly being replaced as some of them are used up and pass away (okay, so they dissolve and get disposed of some way or other - same difference). You may be depriving your body of enough food to keep your body healthy.

Also, you should be losing slowly for another reason: being able to stick with the food plan and being able later to keep the weight off. If you are depriving yourself too much, one day you may feel you have to eat more, and soon it may be too hard to stay on this diet and you may give up. I am not accusing you of being a failure or of not having will power. Losing weight should not be a matter of will power but of knowledge and persistence. And if you did reach your goal weight, you will gain it all back if you return to your previous eating habits.

That is why you need to eat sensibly, but not deprive yourself much. You need to start a new way of eating that you can continue for life.

The reason low carb is very helpful in weight loss is because you feel less hungry by eating fewer carbs and more protein and fats. Carbs produce insulin in our bodies, and insulin is the culprit that makes you run back to the fridge to find the ice cream or the piece of cake that the kids didn't want. Fats and protein do not produce very much insulin, and you therefore feel full (or not hungry) longer. This way you can eat fewer calories and not feel you are struggling every day. Therefore, you can really hurt your body by going too low in calories, and you can undermine your plans by feeling sorry for yourself while others are eating hamburgers and fries (oooo, now THAT is nasty food for sure!).

I know it is hard to believe your doc or the book is incorrect, but it is becoming known more and more by dietitians and obesity researchers that very low calorie diets are quite harmful. Finding a new way of eating that you can do for the rest of your life might give you a chance to be succesful in reaching and maintaining your goal weight.

Again, forgive me for meddling in your life as though I was a guru for weight loss. I am huge and have not found a way (yet) to lose. But my problems have to do with other medical problems that I need to overcome before I can shed my piggy attire.

This is just my very humble opinion. No great wisdom in my words, but I do read a bit about all of this and know there is an answer in the world for those of us who have the weight-loss goal as our best friend and constand companion. I, like all others here, am just trying to find a way to sanity and happiness.

And heavy cream is very close to happiness. Especially when cream, stevia, and cream cheese are added to some other ingredients, and it is poured into a pie pan.

So, SD, I hope you find your answer and success comes along soon to your world.

[SunDrop]

wow,
Well, I'm sort of formulating an answer for you. I don't know why my Dr. suggested this diet. It's called the Two-Day Diet. I got the book off amazon at his suggestion. He uses it for cardiac patients. My only health problem is that I developed hypertension during my first pregnancy, while I was still slim and it has hung about. I'm high normal, like 135/85.

I really wasn't aware that it was that extreme.
Just to clarify, Monday, Tuesday Thursday and Friday are ON days. I stick to a low calorie (under 900), low carb (under 70), low fat (less than 40% fat) sort of plan.

On Wednesday, Saturday and Sunday I eat about 1300 calories and aim for under 200 carbs. I also get 2 Cravers On OFF days or foods that are usually Off limits -Icecream French fries, candy bars etc.
So the benefits of this plan as I see it are that on OFF Days, I truly feel like I'm Off my diet even though I'm still losing weight. And since maintenance phase is learning to llive a life time of Off days, it's sort of practice. learning portion control and how to delay satisfaction a bit and then really enjoy every morsel of it.
I also get to (in fact it's recommended with lunch and dinner) have Pasta and Rice (brown and whole wheat)on my Off days and I would really miss having them absent from my life all together.

So that's my Plan I hope I haven't sounded deffensive. This is really my first try ever at weight loss. I am not a nutrition maven by any measure and I got to 275 pounds with my second child because i simply ate whatever looked good. So, this is like bootcamp re-learning what is good for me and the ammounts I should eat.

My question for you guys especially Giggles (Thank you!!!) is what damage could 900 calories a day do to my body in the long run?? I expect it will be October before I reach goal weight and slide into maintenance.

I am finishing up my first 6 weeks today and have lost 23 pounds. I try to do 5 hour long bouts of moderate exercise a week and chase my kids up and down the stairs all day. The plan is not striking me as restrictive, or leaving me hungry. I'm feeling the best I have in years. I have really only "cheated" a couple of times, in the beginning the OFF Days flipped me out a little, the freedome of those extra calories was a little heady and I'd end up snacking all day. But I seem to have the rhythm now.

I keep track at Fit-Day (started last week) http://www.fitday.com/webfit/publicj...wner=TwoPillow

Again, thank you to every one of you who replied to this. i'm having to do some rethinking and that's not a bad thing.

Also apologies for grammar and spelling in this post, I'm sure it's rife with mistakes.

[jiffypop]

first off. giggles. it's nice to see you posting againl life has been quiet without you. well, not exactly quiet, but it's great to have you back.

and sun drop. frankly, i'm getting around 700 calories a day. it's the eating plan i must follow since i had the gastric bypass. and here's what they tell us: we MUST get in the protein, and precisely for the reasons giggles outlined. we MUST lose the fat, but we can't afford to lose the muscle, adn the only way we can hope to do that is through lots of protein and exercise.

so, all these superheavyweights are doing it. and we all use low-carb, relatively low calorie, and definitely low carb, protein shakes. check with your doc, since he's supervising you. and to tell you the truth, the fact that your doc seems to understand the starvation mode problem is a real plus.

oh. our protein goals: most of the folks who start off weighing under 300 or so are supposed to get 60-80 grams per day. i'm 'special' because i was 409 at the surgery at the end of january. i'm supposed to get 80-100 grams per day. and i'm usually in the lower 80s. sometimes higher. but almost never lower.

and it all seems to be working for you. and not just working, but working GREAT!!!! just watch out for muscle loss. maybe weight lifting is in order for you? check with the doc... but if you're chasing the little ones and picking them up, who needs more weightlifting!!!????

keep up the good work!!!

and please believe me. we're not yakking at you because we think you're wrong or because we're doing it differently or anything mean spirited like that. we're concerned for you, but also very curious. if it works for you, it might work for someone else, and that would be a very very happy thing since we all struggle with these same issues.

[Giggles]

Well Ms. SunDrop,

You answered very well. In fact, you have piqued my curiosity about your diet book. I see why there are on/off days - as Jiff suggested, it fools the body into believing there is no need for going into "starvation mode" as we have often heard (for those of us who have lived the diet life for many years).

What I have heard about the starvation mode is this: if your body does not recieve enough calories to do all the work for the day, such as chasing kids up and down stairs ninety-gazillion times a day, it slows down metabolism so that you do not need as much energy as before to get things done. Then, when you finally increase calories it takes the body a while longer to figure out that it does not need to be in first gear. You [well, I should put my own name in there, actually] ... I am pouring in bread and Hershey bars and my body is conserving all the extra energy for the next time I have to go for a long time without enough food. Hense, dieters go on diets and then get back to their previous way of eating and they gain it all back ... AND MORE. It is a phrase often heard by people who have tried many diets.

As far as the long term problems with eating too few calories... I seem to have a problem with my memory and am not sure I can defend that statement. (Maybe I just did ... maybe you lose a few brain cell for every calorie you don't eat that you need....) ... (okay, I shouldn't do that... I kid too much and if you can't hear the sound of my voice or see my face, you might think I am being serious...)

What I have read about eating too few calories for the work needed to be done that day is that you can only pull so much fat and convert it to glucose when you make your body use fat for energy instead of the sugar of the foods you eat.

All carbs, ALL CARBOHYDRATES are changed into a little sugar molecule, called glucose, before it even can get through the cell walls to be used as energy (glucose runs all the processes in the cells; it is as though each molecule of glucose was a tiny battery).

So, if you eat bread, an apple, or a handfull or ten of Skittles, those foods are sent through the gut and special little guys, called digestive juices, disassemble the foods into pieces small enough to get through the cell walls of the gut and into the blood stream. Then the carbs enter the blood stream and head to the liver (the boss) for directions. The liver sends some out to the brain, some to the arms, and some to the heart, and so on. The ones that are not glucose, but are other sugars from the foods (for instance, most fruits have fructose for their sugar) have to go into the liver's day surgery office to get changed into a glucose molecule. After this happens, they are also ready to go to work.

If you eat few calories, or few carbs, the body has to find glucose somewhere. It can pull some out of a warehouse in the back of the liver, but there isn't many of those temp glucose workers there. So we are thinking the liver will send messengers to the globby hips or abs and asks for fat cells to give up some of their fat, 'cause the liver said so. But the liver has only so many messengers, and they aren't very fast workers. The liver looks around and says "We gotta have more glucose NOW!" and he tells the protein molecules and the fat molecules that we just adopted (ate) they have to stop doing what they were doing and rush to the head as glucose. The brain cannot live without lots of those batteries. (In plain talk, our bodies will pull fat, carb, or protein and convert any of them to glucose since glucose is vital for life - no glucose and we go into chapter 7 bankruptcy - we stop being.)

So, if you eat too few calories and the body needs energy and you are not able to pull enough fat for energy needs, you end up not supplying the heart, brain, kidneys, muscles, pancreas, and lots of other stuff with the needed protein, carbs, and fats. Our bodies need all of those products to replace all the parts that are needing repair or replacement.

Now, .... what was the question? Oh, yes, how does it cause long term damage to eat too few calories? It isn't something you can tell right away, and I guess no one has done research to prove anything, but I suspect some of the problems us older people have might be partially caused by or at least aided by the lack of the right building blocks for our bodies' parts.

Aren't you sorry you asked? I do go on past infinity in my explanations. I don't really know how many calories you should be eating to prevent the story above from happening in you. But 900 is quite low for someone with kids and who exercises.

One or two pounds is a good loss, nice and slow loss so that you have pleanty of energy and pleanty of good building block material to be made and for you to stay healthy, while pulling some of those chubby fat guys out of the hips, tummy, legs, arms, lips or any of those parts that could use some slimming, and making those chubbies into batteries.

Two books I have read about low carbing (and you thought carb was a noun!) mention ways to determine if you are losing too much or too little and give instructions about how to eat to correct that problem. So, I guess it is considered a problem to lose too much per week. What a bummer!

Okay, wake up everyone. Lecture is over.

Oh, Jiffy! I wrote this dissertation for so long I didn't see you come and go again. Nice to see words from your brain too. My, you certainly have tact down to a science. Very nicely stated, your last comments.

[nasus40]

You are so good at explaining things giggles it is so good you are here. I just can not fantom all that typing to get that all said. You are 100% correct as usual. We need to talk to Ruth and see if we can get a forum under the low carb just for these informatnion posts like this one. and have her move it there and save all this wonderful info so others do not miss it. I know that many times we repeat this info and this would save info from being missed.

I was thinking the varied cal intake was due to the trying to kieep out of the starvation mode like you said, but i to am very concerned about what and how you are eating.

In PP book they talk about how the insulin will stimulate the BP to raise, and well if you are eating up to 200 carbs on off days and depending onthe foods that you eat i can not see how much this is doing you much good for the bp I am sure that you are going to see some results but i think you really need to decrease your carbs. NOT the cals though. I do not want to be presumtious but There are some concernes here for that.

I did want to add to giggles that if you do not eat enough calories the body will break down protein as it can make glucose out of protein in a process called gluconeogenisis, but hrer is the catch it will ONLY turn to glucose only the ammount the body needs to survive. that is why it is so important if you cut your calories that your body takes in enough protien so as it does not have to resort to burning your muscles. so also with that as giggles said the body can only burn 2 - 2 1/2 lbs of fat a week as there is only so much the body can use the fat for, it is not an endless suply of energy it will only fuel certain things.

so here is the scoup from the best of my knowledge.

Your body needs energy to burn so you eat your foods.... the limited carbs turn to glucose...and is used for fuel so then what
is left??? well the body will go for the protein for energy it will burn what you eat to glucose (If you over eat the protein it will not turn to fat as it is too difficult to do that, but easier to rid your body of the excess through the body) if you have not eaten enough for the body it will turn to the muscles and breakthem down to use. As there is limited uses for the fat energy the body will only burn a small amount of fat a week.

that is why we are so conderned over the caloric levels your doc has you on. your body will turn to your muscles when you get down that low. you should only go down to just under well let me figure this out.... 3500 cals per pound...... 7000 cals for 2 that means that 8750 cals a week below your weekly caloric level. there are formulas to figure your levels.

check back here for info and where to get some links when you are ready. OK?