STYMIED: Rapid Weight Gain
 

I have had much success following phase 1 of the ip protocol using alternatives. I have attempted for years to lose 30 lbs. without success until I embarked on this plan.
I really enjoyed phase 1, I had already given up my soda habit and letting go of bread and fruit was not difficult for me at all.
I am a person who tends to focus on what I am doing in the moment, without giving a lot of thought to the bigger picture.
Eventually it came time to consider phase 2 as I was at a weight that I was very happy with and was ready to phase out. I had previously read the phase 2 protocol and knew what was expected and was feeling very leary about my ability to do it and kept putting it off. However, I realized I could not continue on phase 1 forever, no matter how much I was enjoying it. So I began phase 2. Following through with that did prove to be difficult for me. I managed 9 full days of phase 2 ( admittedly there was a crab and sushi meal out during those 9 days), but by the time my dinner for day 10 came, I was pretty much chocking down the last ½ portion of my protein. I remembered reading that some ladies who phased out before vacation (or to continue with protocol) were saying that their coach said it was okay not to do the whole 14 days of phase 2 and move to phase 3. I thought great...I will move on to phase 3. When I read the protocol sheet and saw that phase 3 was still 2 8oz. servings of protein a day with the addition on a piece of fruit or some toast, I balked. What!!! I knew I would be unable to eat all that protein from my experience of 10 days on phase 2 and I am really not sure that I choose to continue to eat bread, or even fruit for that matter. My decision was to set that all aside and continue on phase 1 with cheating....ie crab and sushi 1 day a week and a handful of raw almonds almost everyday. I am pretty sure I am not in ketosis most of the time because of these cheats.
Now I don't have a clue what to do. I know I cannot stay on phase 1 forever. Since Christmas I am not losing weight, nor do I necessarily want to, and happily, I am maintaining my loss.
I read somewhere in this forum where a gentleman had said that the plan works the way it is so don't try to change it. I so agree with that, and I sincerely wish I could phase out the way I am meant to, but it is just way too much food for me to sustain that for 4 weeks (phase 2 & 3). I am 5'2” and weigh 138lbs at 59 years of age. I teach 5 yoga classes a week and participate in 2 fitness classes a week, so activity is not an issue. I still take my supplements. The only downfall for me is that my hair is falling out at an alarming rate. I have read the forums on that issue and 1 gal commented that it was actually not falling out, just not growing. I have to disagree, my hair is most definitely falling out and maybe it isn't growing, I don't know.
I spend some time almost every day considering what to do next and I am stymied. I feel like I am right back to where I was before losing weight, obsessing about what to do with my diet. That was what I loved about phase 1, I didn't have to think about it.
I have had fun packing up and handing down my larger sized clothing as much as I have loved shopping thrift stores for smaller sized clothing. Like I said, I am very pleased with my results, but it does need to have an ending....just not sure how to play it out.
Any thoughts on this would be gratefully received. Perhaps you have had a similar experience and were able to work through it.

ommamma
I highly suggest jumping into the maintenance thread and asking your question there. Those are the folks with the experience.

If the basic architecture of phase one allows you to maintain. You may not need to do much except find real food replacement for your packets. You only need to kick in enough calories to maintain. You don't even have to get out of ketosis if you don't have issue with ketosis.
You can be ketosis and maintain. Performance athletes do it all the time. Ben Greenfield is a triathelete, Mark Bell - power lifter, I also know of a high level grappler all use a ketogenic approach but weightloss is not the goal. Especially Greenfield, he is super skinny. People also treat nervous system and dementia with ketosis.
If you find real food equivalence and up you fat a bit to maintain. Your hair may stop falling out. The hair can be linked to thyroid down regulation. Fat helps that. An every 10-14 day spike in insulin (single meal or treat) can also help again it a hormone thing. This can be playing with fire depending on what got you to need IP but it works. Bodybuilders use this trick all the time because it also signals an anabolic response to the body when wanting to build lean muscle.
More so cholesterol, it is the primary building blocks to the hormone cascade. Like BCAA are for building muscle.


My wife is lucky if she eats much more than 1k a day. She isn't over weight or have any metabolic issues. She just has some ability to eat for her fueling needs. It really impressive because she doesn't read or practice diets. She is 5' something and maybe 110-120#. I avoid asking specifics.

You can get to a maintenance level of calories using fats and you don't have to worry about excess protein or getting too many carbs and the insulin fat storage mechanism related to that. Plus being more energy dense it takes less volume of it to get there if you feel like it too much food. Fats @ 9 calories per gram vs Protein and Carbs at 4 calories per gram.

In my experience, part of the success with IP and Phasing Off is twofold.

One is integrating into eating your own foods into your own lifestyle. If you cannot eat the whole 8 ounces of protein, consider a smaller portion. Could you manage 6 ounces?

In Phase 3, you don't have to eat bread, but it is good to reawaken the pancreas in the way the program does, so it does not go back to overproducing insulin and storing fat. It is to retrain the pancreas to respond properly, so the 2 weeks on Phase 3 is important, in my opinion.

The second aspect of Phasing Off with the IP recommended time frame of the four weeks is to consciously become aware of and work through the emotional fears that are surfacing with the reality of moving into maintaining. In my experience, people often have a few fears and insecurities that arise, so this is the opportunity to work through them.

Some people have breezed through the Phases, and then their real work for long term maintenance, the inner work, surfaced during the Phase Off period.

Perhaps that may offer some insight.

wylothar you are a wise man in more ways than one lol. What you have said makes sense to me, thank you for the clarity. How interesting that I have gravitated toward crab (cholesterol, protein, fat) and sushi (starch, sugar). Turns out I have been doing pretty much what you have suggested. To replace packets I have been using 2 eggs (more fat & calories)w/2 whites or 1 can of tuna or salmon or leftover chicken or ground poultry. I also continue to have green shakes with protein powder and I do still enjoy Simply Protein chips on my salad and Quest bars. I have been adding fats, in the form of almonds and olives.
Lynxxie you addressed my concerns about the role of phasing off on the pancreas, and you hit the nail on the head about the fear around phasing off. That is a big part of why I put it off. I feel ready now though and I feel I could do 6 oz. of protein instead of 8 at 1 of my meals.

Thank you both so much. What I am going to do is commit to 100% op for 2 weeks in phase 1 and then do 1 week of phase 2 (not sure about doing 2) and 2 weeks of phase 3. Also, I am going to take a look at the maintenance thread as Lisa has suggested. Man I feel so much better, much more relaxed now that I have direction, thanks again.

I am still on Phase 1 but have been researching maintenance and adding back in bread/carbs freaked me out also. Also, I am going on a vacation at spring break so I talked with my coach about phasing off. She encouraged me to reach my goal weight but told me that I could shorten the Phase 2 and Phase 3 to a week each (or less) and then go on my vacation, have fun but in phase 4/maintenance.

Regarding the 8 oz of protein - you can probably cut it down to 6 at each meal with no problem. My coach cut me down to six after I'd lost about 70 pounds. Said us shorties don't necessarily need 8. You can also break it up so you don't have to eat it all at once.

Thanks Ruth Ann, I was wondering about needing less calories as I loss weight but didn't factor in my height. Good point! Congratulations on your outstanding success! With teaching yoga, and needing to not have a full belly when I do, some days my window for eating a meal can be tight. I am going to keep in mind splitting it up, that would make it so much easier on those days that I need to eat earlier.

You are only 5'2" and at a good weight now. 5 to 6 oz is likely fine for you.

I won't be adding in any grain based carbohydrates into my maintenance. Or refined sugars.
I will go with safe starches minimally. http://thedomesticman.com/2014/12/26...arch-cookbook/

Our family health has improved by dumping grains and sugars even for the wife and she doesn't have weight issues.

Very interesting thread...I'm about 10 lbs from goal...I don't want to add grains & sugar/fruit back to my diet. I feel so much better without them. I'll be reading this thread as it progresses...thanks everyone!

Love this patns: Make choices today that your future self will thank you for!
I am considering a trip to your neck of the woods next month to surprise my granddaughter on her birthday!

wylothar you have sent me on a very interesting and enlightening search of safe starches. This resonates with me and I am going to look into it further.

Yes becky123abc, me too! I figure if I am not missing it, it probably wasn't anything I needed in the first place. Take a look at the link wylothar provided, an informative read.

Here is some information. I know most of the prominent people in the JERF (paleo) movement have different position. I think it boils down to the individuals response. For me it will have to be minimally. Jimmy Moore has this article and it includes some of the prominent people in the movement. I consider Jimmy a personality more than anything, but Dr. Kurt Harris, Robb Wolf, Chris Kresser, Diane Sanfilippo, Paul Jaminet are legitimate sources to consider.

http://livinlavidalowcarb.com/blog/i...arb-diet/11809

I think much of the traditional grain carbs are dependant on the unique biology and any sensitivities and hormone imbalances.

I have experimented (still firmly in P1 equivalent) with different types of bread, flours (mainly almond, hazelnut meal, coconut flour) and had no issues with weight loss stalling or feeling the "grain brain" or sluggishness that many gluten-sensitive folks suffer.

The only way to know how it will affect you is to try reintroducing it in very small amounts over a period of time so you know what is happening.

There are some great arguments from Wolf, Kresser, Greenfield and co that are backed by their own scientific research but, again, they don't know YOUR unique variables. :)

For sure, Kresser himself needs more carbs to operate he admits. I am not sure what types he uses. Knowing his history I doubt much grain is involved. His book 'paleo cure' in paperback and 'personal paleo code' in hardback offer those kind of troubleshooting information to design a tailored diet to an individual body responses.

Rapid Weight Gain
 

Please help me explain what is going on.
After 6 months, I went off Phase 1 last week for 6 days. I didn't go off the rails or anything - I would say I consumed approximately 2500 calories each day.
I weighed myself today and scale shows 20 pound gain. Although concerning, what is even more concerning is how my clothes fit - it seems my fat cells grew as my clothes fit as if I am truly 20 pounds heavier. Common sense tells me this is crazy but is it possible that our BMR is lowered so much on this that these kinds of numbers are somewhat accurate and not all water weight.
Has anyone gone through this and found their size went back relatively quickly because at this rate, it seems I need 6-8 weeks on phase 1 to compensate for 6 days off??!!

Interesting link wylothar. I think paleo proponents forget that the Inuit also gathered berries, lichen, and sorrel and prepared them for winter storage & use as well as eating the stomach contents of the caribou for greens and the livers of many animals which do contain higher levels of Vit C than we might expect. The 'country foods' weren't just meat. The vegetation was prized when available as it was pretty scarce, considering the climate and land.
I agree though with the idea that we eat far too many carbs (especially processed ones as a general rule). I would tend toward more organic whole foods including some fruit but more veggies, and less grains especially the overused ones like corn & wheat & white rice (I'm GF due to med issues).
I don't think that there really are 'safe starches' for some people... but they would have to monitor what's happening in their bodies and tweak food plans accordingly.

Great thread, all!

Liana

It isn't just about the calories... but just thinking about that - you ate 150% more calories per day than on P1, if not more.
Just fyi.
How much sodium did you have? Were you drinking the same amount of water as P1? How much of your eating was processed carbs (fat & sugar combined in foods/meals)? These things all affect weight gain which isn't always just fat. Inflammation, sodium, etc? Still taking your vitamins??
All things to consider....
Just hop back on the wagon and maybe considering how your body reacts to that huge sudden increase might encourage you to keep on plan until proper phase off. :hug:
You'll get back into the groove again and get healthier.

Liana

Not from the primary people in the movement. They are up on most research as it come out. The local personal trainer now they can miss large elements of research I agree. They also coach on super vague guidelines, much like IP does in fact. Very few people want to get in the weeds of what is actually going on in their diet practices. The more your messed up the more people tend to dig deep.

Especially guys like Wolf, Kressor, Matt Lalonde, those guys are pretty much on top of the research and aren't afraid to throw a BS flag when needed. Kresser did a write up about the radiation levels in fish in relation to Fukishima event and used a very calm and educated approach vs the huge scare tactics that many in the 'real food movement' where doing. Recently did a podcast going over the cancer/ red meat relationship (more like lack of relationship).

Even I know of that concept you described above. Eating stomach contents that is.

Dr Kiefer (not paleo but keto/ VLCD) believes the safe starch position came about recently because people trying to find excuses to eat starchy foods. White rice and sweet potatoes seem to be decently tolerated in large. Really depends on person and the glycogen needs. I am one who can't have much starch or carbs period. But 'Resistant starch' does seem to have an benificial effect in improving the gut flora balance. Lots of info out on that also. Wolf has had great success with it. Mark Sisson still hasn't made a personal position on it.

The high protein idea everybody puts on 'paleo' isn't the position of the top tier or anyone truly versed in it. I listen to hours a week of podcasts from these guys. As far as physical volume veggies are primary. Asshats early in paleo movement have made certain untrue media stigma stick. Dr. Terry wahls protocol is very veggy dominate and I don't see anyone say it isn't in paleo guidelines. Weston A Price is very similar also. They use some sprouted legumes, lentils and such and the spent decades living with different hunter gatherer population to observe them and run test. WAP website loves to bash paleo but many top 'Paleo' people think they are more alike than not. Rob wolf I believe had a WAP representative on his show despite the negative writing that WAP put out on 'Paleo'. Searching for link will post later if found.

They are all 80% or more in agreement and argue and name call over the last <20% of differences. Then those outside the movement use broad generalizations to bring it down also. Real food Vegan actually have more in common with 'Paleo' than what they disagree on.
I don't think the misinformation stigma will go away, they will have to adopt a new name. Paleo does not equal perceived paleolithic period diet either. Another flaw in the name. we have sources of foods that seem very safe that likely "caveman" didn't have access to.


Two very 'Paleo' friendly plate images. http://goo.gl/SZGA30 and http://goo.gl/PH1e2h (Dr. John Berardi)
Other plate images do exist but of the speakers at PaleoFX, I bet everyone of them recognize the as 'Paleo' representations and healthy.

It is actually having the opposite reaction - knowing how my body reacted, perhaps this isn't the best long-term plan and I should switch to a program that increases my BMR because this impact is outrageous.
All the things you mention should not result in rapid weight gain and increase size in just 6 days to the extent it has.

It is crazy how fast you gain it back if you don't phase off correctly. I went off the diet without doing it properly and have gained 14 of 18 lbs back in about 3 months. Most of it has been in the past month. I have never gained weight so fast. I blame myself and have been trying to get back on track. It makes you question if we are going to be forever going on and off this diet. Having said that I did feel much better when I was eating this way.

1. Replenishment of glycogen stores = approx 5lbs
2. Water retention from sodium = possibly 2-3lbs
3. Full bowel from carbs without corresponding fiber or protein = anywhere between 5 to 10 lbs
4. Bloating from food intolerances - when your body is trying to recover from a less than agreeable reaction to a newly reintroduced food it's going to hold onto water to try and help flush it out

At 5'8 your BMR (assuming you're a healthy able-bodied woman) should be around 1750-1800 calories. Let's be nice and add 200 for physical activity to the top of that range. 2000 calories per day to maintain. You said roughly 2500 per day for 6 days would be a maximum gain of roughly a lb (working on the slightly averaged 3500 calories = 1 lb of gain). You haven't been on IP long enough to see a massive reduction in your BMR, unless you are a rebooter.

Keep drinking your water and eating your veggies and healthy fats and this will probably resolve itself. The fact that you are seeing bloat indicates it's probably a combination of all of the above.

Is IP a healthy diet? It depends on how you use it, how well you plan your real food within it and how much you understand about how your metabolism and body processes work and how IP is tailored in to those factors. It isn't the BEST diet out there, but it shouldn't be causing undue harm.

Many people disagree that you should be testing your body's boundaries while on IP, to see where your tolerances are, but I find it essential so I can plan for the future. I like to periodically push my calories and carbs up so it keeps my body on its toes. Does it cause slowdowns? Yes, sometimes, but as long as the trend is down I'm ok with that.

The only person who can decide whether IP (or its alternatives) is right for you, is you. The only program that will increase your BMR is increasing your exercise and building muscle, preferably strength training with lots of protein snacks before and after. No diet can do that for you.

The reason BMR decreases on IP is because you are shedding body fat percentage. Fat, while not a desirable component of our bodies, actually does contribute to your BMR - but at a substantially reduced rate than muscle.

As your body mass decreases your BMR goes down anyway - this is normal, because a 100lb body has no need of the same caloric intake ratio as a 300lb one.

True, I think when people hear that word 'Paleo' it does come to mind about the all meat & coconut oil sort of diet (being facetious here ;)), but that is true that all the healthy 'old days' eating plans really did revolve around mostly vegetables with large amounts of meat during special periods of availability only. Thinking of hunter gatherers mainly. But that also goes for farming many years ago when a cow or pig was killed, the meat was the focus for many meals (due to worries about spoilage) and then the rest of the year was the veggies with fruits along with eggs etc.

Meds can have a huge reaction in the body, I'd check that out first with your doc and see if it isn't exacerbated by the medications, and if there isn't some other kind of med you can use for your anxiety.
It isn't all IP to blame, when you eat low VLC for a bit your body adjusts and needs less - lower BMR. If you go back to eating the way that gained your weight in the first place, you will get the same results. That's why it's so important to phase off properly.

Liana

I believe the research is about 3 weeks max of any restricted protocol the body will begin to turn down the metabolism. And use other methods to conserve energy. Nice little pdf from Gary Taubes,
https://www.dropbox.com/s/q8cwjiw2qi...Bonus.pdf?dl=0

The metabolic turndown is why many in performance fields use a CKD, Carbnite, Carb backloading (for the top energy athletes, crossfit games type athletes) approaches. It keeps the body from finding homeostasis with the diet/ energy expenditure relationship.

Have you watched the documentary 'Perfect Human Diet'? It is interesting and includes actual paleontologist analyzing dug up civilizations. I really wanting to watch the new documentary Origins http://origins.well.org/ Their is a way to view it free. Just been busy.

Thanks, Amanda. Interesting data points. I guess I will have to see how my body responds by being back on Phase 1 because with the data you cite, I should see these 20 pounds come down pretty quickly - say within 2 weeks.

Keeping fingers crossed for you, as I'm sure it was a nasty shock to gain that much unexpectedly. :)

Curious how the title for this thread got changed.
Great information everyone, enjoying the discussion.

Don't forget hormones...I blame EVERYTHING on hormones! :)
I remember a few years ago, I had gone 6 months eating very low carb...lost 60 lbs...went to a weekend retreat and ate whatever I felt like eating (lots of sugar) ...TOM came...when I got home two days later I had gained 13 lbs...it was like the perfect storm! A week later 10 or 11 of those lbs were gone. You'll get back to where you were...

I read the blog and followed another link about "safe starches". Very interesting discussion (I fell asleep with my head on the laptop I stayed up so late reading). Wylothar, I think I might follow the same type of maintenance that you plan. When I do add in carbs, I'll add in potatoes, sweet potatoes, and maybe rice (that just seems so wrong and from what I read last night is probably the bigger debate). Also, I think there are other types of paleo discussions about whether dairy is okay or not. I know I ate a lot of dairy during my last big successful diet (Atkins) and I lost and maintained quite well until I had multiple pregnancies and kids.

Dairy is good for people who can tolerate it. Mark Sisson (one of the top tier people) is an advocate. A lot of people choose Raw dairy or goat cheese and milks. And it seems to be better tolerated. The milk and yogurts I personally will not be using but I will likely add some hard cheeses and fermented cheeses rarely. I already use grass fed butter. If people are super intolerant to dairy they can try ghee as it has almost all the proteins and sugars removed that would cause a dietary distress. It really depends on how your body will respond. I get a pretty big inflammatory response from dairy myself, the phlem starts almost instantly. It isn't new, even as a kid on eating normal dairy wrecked me.

Update on me in case this happens to anyone else...

I am down 9 pounds in 2 days. Given that I am probably not even back in ketosis yet, I'll take it even though I am still shocked at a 20 pound gain in 6 days, regardless of the reason why. It has me that much more worried about results upon phase off - I guess the phase off is critical so this doesn't happen when one moves to phase 4. For now, I am just hoping these 20 pounds are gone within 2 weeks if not sooner.

It certainly sounds like you may be in ketosis, Ro22, as that sounds like depletion of glycogen stores and loss of some water weight.

Glad to hear it's coming off and putting you back on track.

I've read a few complaints from people who have gained weight after IP, but when you dig into the stories, and see the questions asked and answered, it's nearly always people who think that phasing off isn't necessary. Just look at how successful our 3FC IP vets are at not gaining - because they phase out and keep a broad eye on their macros.

So many people seem to believe that a diet is a miracle cure that allows them to go back to the old habits once they reach goal weight, and they tend to be the ones who don't think the protocol is tried and tested and should be followed.

Ro22, thank you for sharing your experience and update. I will be doing IP for several more months, but I am already thinking about maintenance and weight gain after the diet. This thread has taught me a lot about the importance of phasing off appropriately when it's time. I definitely feel more informed. Thanks to all of you who contributed information as well!

I know dairy can be a big issue for many people. My older son was dairy intolerant as a baby/toddler and it's in a ton of processed foods. He's outgrown the intolerance and we actually have a local farm that delivers our dairy, eggs, and butter!

This is the most troubling part for me - I didn't go anywhere close to old habits - I had what I thought was a normal/slightly above normal caloric intake expecting to gain a few pounds - I actually wanted to gain a few pounds as I have been experiencing symptoms for last 3 weeks the way they describe what happens in week 1 so I just wanted dizziness and fuzziness to go away. I never expected a 20 pound gain and an increase in numerous inches. I joined this program because of its phasing as I have never successfully phased off - I'm either gaining or losing and I wanted to get off that roller coaster. I am glad I got right back after 6 days because I didn't feel well abruptly being off phase 1 either. The good news is that it was very easy for me to get right back to phase 1 protocol on Monday - lesson learned.

Well, it does seem alarming that you went up 20 pounds so easily but losing 9 in 2 days is also a lot. So, it does seem that you body reacts pretty strongly to something. So, I would take this as a sign to follow the phases pretty closely and maybe add back in food groups slowly to see how you react to them.

You're welcome. I will keep providing updates as I am learning through this too as I am anxious to see how long it takes to get the 20 pounds off. I will give an update tomorrow and then I'll be traveling for a week so I will provide another update when I make it back off the road next Friday.

Btw, I don't think I am yet as Ketostix does not show that I am. I am going to check again tomorrow. I am hoping for another big drop tomorrow. I can see myself shrinking back to size I was a week ago. Today was a big difference as compared to last 2 days.

Ketostix don't really tell you anything useful. They are designed for diabetics and people with kidney issues, and if you register more than trace on a ketostick, that means you have EXCESS proteins in your urine which is a BAD thing. In Ketosis, you don't have excess proteins because your body is using ketones for energy.

Whether you are in ketosis or not has little to do with the calories you are eating, and much more to do with the carbs you are eating. Ketosis happens when you deplete your glycogen stores (which are replenished by the carbs you eat). If you are following P1 and are not unusually sensitive to carbs, you are in ketosis.

Ok, after 3 days back on phase 1, I am down 12.2 pounds. I am flying out today so I won't be able to weigh myself daily to check my progress. I hope when I get back next Friday, I am back down below where I was.

Interesting on Ketostix - I know what ketosis is but hadn't heard that info regarding the sticks - I measured moderate ketosis for many weeks for first few months on this program and now I am hearing this was a bad thing...hmmmm. If that were true, why didn't my coach flag that as a problem? In fact, he told me not to change a thing as he said I was getting optimal results.