Backing up a moment, I'm having a bit of trouble with someone who self-describes as obese concern trolling someone else fat.
Your classmate is an adult. She's not your problem and it's not your place to try to fix her just because you're certain that you know better than she does.
Backing up a moment, I'm having a bit of trouble with someone who self-describes as obese concern trolling someone else fat.
Your classmate is an adult. She's not your problem and it's not your place to try to fix her just because you're certain that you know better than she does.
Umm. Wow. I knew this would be a hot topic but I didn't know people were going to be so mean. I wasn't trying to "fix" her. I stated that I did not know what being an advocate of health at every size meant and that I clearly misunderstood what it was about by just hearing the name. I wasn't thinking about "controlling" her. I was thinking "hey, I've found an exercise buddy". When did wanting to encourage someone to lose weight become a bad thing?
Why would you assume that this woman is your exercise buddy?
Because she is morbidly obese. Because she shared with the rest of us that she is sick because of her weight. I did not ask... she shared. Because her eyes teared up when she couldn't fit into the desk in class. If you don't like what I have to say than you can simply not read my threads. Too easy.
Fat acceptance, as you can probably guess from the words “fat” and “acceptance” being right together like that, does not go over so well in some circles. Even in some progressive circles — which are usually known for not hating entire groups of people because of their appearances, not thinking what other people do with their bodies is anybody’s beeswax, and not uncritically accepting whatever moral panic the media tries to whip up, but wev. Fat is different! Don’t you know there’s an obesity epidemic? Don’t you know that fat kills? Haven’t you ever heard of Type 2 diabetes? Don’t you realize how much money this is going to cost society down the line? Won’t someone please think of the children?
So, before I start getting comments like that, I want to lay out ten principles that underlie pretty much everything I write about fat and health.
1. Weight itself is not a health problem, except in the most extreme cases (i.e., being underweight or so fat you’re immobilized). In fact, fat people live longer than thin people and are more likely to survive cardiac events, and some studies have shown that fat can protect against “infections, cancer, lung disease, heart disease, osteoporosis, anemia, high blood pressure, rheumatoid arthritis and type 2 diabetes.” Yeah, you read that right: even the *******ed diabetes. Now, I’m not saying we should all go out and get fat for our health (which we wouldn’t be able to do anyway, because no one knows how to make a naturally thin person fat any more than they know how to make a naturally fat person thin; see point 4), but I’m definitely saying obesity research is turning up surprising information all the time — much of which goes ignored by the media — and people who give a damn about critical thinking would be foolish to accept the party line on fat. Just because you’ve heard over and over and over that fat! kills! doesn’t mean it’s true. It just means that people in this culture really love saying it.
2. Poor nutrition and a sedentary lifestyle do cause health problems, in people of all sizes. This is why it’s so ****ing crucial to separate the concept of “obesity” from “eating crap and not exercising.” The two are simply not synonymous — not even close — and it’s not only incredibly offensive but dangerous for thin people to keep pretending that they are. There are thin people who eat crap and don’t exercise — and are thus putting their health at risk — and there are fat people who treat their bodies very well but remain fat. Really truly.
3. What’s more, those groups do not represent anomalies; no one has proven that fat people generally eat more or exercise less than thin people. Period. And believe me, they’ve tried. (Gina Kolata’s new book, Rethinking Thin, is an outstanding source for more on that point.)
4. Diets don’t work. No, really, not even if you don’t call them diets. If you want to tell me about how YOUR diet totally worked, do me a favor and wait until you’ve kept all the weight off for five years. Not one year, not four years, five years. And if you’ve kept it off for that long, congratulations. You’re literally a freak of nature.
5. Given that diets don’t work in the long-term for the vast, vast majority of people, even if obesity in and of itself were a health crisis, how the **** would you propose we solve it?
6. Most fat people have already dieted repeatedly. And sadly, it’s likely that the dieting will cause them more health problems than the fat.
7. Human beings deserve to be treated with dignity and respect. Fat people are human beings.
8. Even fat people who are unhealthy still deserve dignity and respect. Still human beings. See how that works?
9. In any case, shaming teh fatties for being “unhealthy” doesn’t ****ing help. If shame made people thin, there wouldn’t be a fat person in this country, trust me. I wish I could remember who said this, ’cause it’s one of my favorite quotes of all time: “You cannot hate people for their own good.”
10. If you scratch an article on the obesity! crisis! you will almost always find a press release from a company that’s developing a weight loss drug — or from a “research group” that’s funded by such companies.
So let’s just be clear that if you want to tell me fat people are disgusting and unhealthy in comments, all I’m gonna do is point you back to this post. And/or point you to other posts from my blog or from one of my favorite fat bloggers, and/or bombard you with quotes from the aforementioned Gina Kolata, or Paul Campos, or J. Eric Oliver, or Michael Gard and Jan Wright, or Glenn Gaesser, or Marilyn Wann, or Laura Fraser. Seriously, you don’t even want to get me ****ing started.
Oh, also? BMI is complete horse****."
I apologize for those who are advocates of HAES. Thank you for informing me about what it is really about. The comments I made were directed to what this article said.. I made my second post after reading the second reply to the thread where this link was posted. I do not take back the things I said about this article in particular.
I can't possibly interpret for you what your classmate meant when she said "Health at every size" and I haven't read the blog in question but I can tell you what it means to me.
In order to maximize an individual's health at any size:
It means treating each patient with respect, regardless of their size.
It means meeting people where they are and respecting if, when, and how they desire to make changes.
It means not making assumptions about a person's abilities, strengths, weaknesses, history or potential.
It means respecting an individual's autonomy and control over his or her own self.
Many obese people actively avoid healthcare situations because they fear judgment. They fear that the hcp will only see their weight and not look past it. Weight is one piece of a person's health and physical being. It is not the only piece. The importance of a particular piece varies based on what else is happening with a certain person.
Good luck with nursing school.
Last edited by midwife; 01-21-2011 at 04:16 PM.
Reason: added
I had never heard of this association. If the message is about the failure rate of diet in general I cannot disagree. There are many way to lose weight, some are rapid almost instant gratification that last as long as it took to loose the weight. Then you have people that take long term commitment to change their eating habits and get active, regardless of there initial size they will succeed in improving their health in general and gradually loose the weight.
Skinny people are not healthier than obese people, they have different issues. I once got very sick from dysenteria and at the time weighted 80 pounds, I had problem with my heart and could not get pregnant, lethargy, anemia, to name a few problems I had. Took a long time to get better with special nutrition and it did leave sequels.
What is important I guess is that if your health is at risk now or in the future we should try to do our best to improve our health.
I can't possibly interpret for you what your classmate meant when she said "Health at every size" and I haven't read the blog in question but I can tell you what it means to me.
In order to maximize an individual's health at any size:
It means treating each patient with respect, regardless of their size.
It means meeting people where they are and respecting if, when, and how they desire to make changes.
It means not making assumptions about a person's abilities, strengths, weaknesses, history or potential.
It means respecting an individual's autonomy and control over his or her own self.
Many obese people actively avoid healthcare situations because they fear judgment. They fear that the hcp will only see their weight and not look past it. Weight is one piece of a person's health and physical being. It is not the only piece. The importance of a particular piece varies based on what else is happening with a certain person.
Good luck with nursing school.
This, 1000 times this. This is a viewpoint I could stand behind!
If you don't like what I have to say than you can simply not read my threads. Too easy.
Uh, people have the right to agree AND disagree. We all can respond to what we agree and disagree with. Just as you have the right to post "what you have to say" we all have the same right whether we open a thread of our own or post in response to someone else's.
If you don't like people disagreeing with you, then you simply should not post. Too easy.
Sarcastic? Yep, a little. But it really annoys me when people say what they want not thinking about how it sounds to others, but call other people "mean" if they disagree or find their post insulting or offensive.
Even if I disagree, I can respect someone who stands by their statements regardless of other people's feelings and opinions, unless they don't accept the same from others.
If you're going to be blunt and opinionated, at least respect other people's rights to do the same. Otherwise it just comes off as condescenion, entitlement and self-righteousness.
Uh, people have the right to agree AND disagree. We all can respond to what we agree and disagree with. Just as you have the right to post "what you have to say" we all have the same right whether we open a thread of our own or post in response to someone else's.
If you don't like people disagreeing with you, then you simply should not post. Too easy.
Sarcastic? Yep, a little. But it really annoys me when people say what they want not thinking about how it sounds to others, but call other people "mean" if they disagree or find their post insulting or offensive.
Even if I disagree, I can respect someone who stands by their statements regardless of other people's feelings and opinions, unless they don't accept the same from others.
If you're going to be blunt and opinionated, at least respect other people's rights to do the same. Otherwise it just comes off as condescenion, entitlement and self-righteousness.
Ahhh... and what would life be without sarcasm...
I enjoy heated debates. And I want to hear other people's opinions. You quoted a comment that wasn't directed towards you. You posted your opinion... and I respected it. Even apologized for offending you... and explained several times already that my comments were for that article. MariaMaria was being condescending, so I replied accordingly to her. You made a point and dropped in your two cents which I appreciate, she was just personally attacking me without adding anything to the conversation which is why I replied as I did.
Actually, I think what MariaMaria made a good point, as I was thinking it myself. On the topic of condescencion, I think your original post and some of your responses, show quite a bit of condescenction.
I would and have been extremely offended when someone (larger than me, or smaller than me) expressed to me some of what you posted, especially if they decided they could or should "help me," before getting to know me very well, and before knowing if I needed any help at all. Many after trying, realized that my knowledge and habits were better than their own. Sometimes knowledge and effort isn't enough. Just because someone is fatter, even "twice as fat" it doesn't mean their knowledge and efforts are lacking.
Pity is one of the most useless emotions, because it's so often misguided.
To me, what comes across in your posts is that (well-intended or not) you seem to want to swoop down and save this woman from herself, and you've made some sterotypical assumptions about her. Some of them obviously because of simple and somewhat understandable ignorance. You could have educated yourself on morbid obesity (and learned that knee and joint issues are common and that her choice to not carry books and avoid elevators may have been an informed one) or on HAES and learned that it actually can be a quite reasonable philosophy, but you didn't do that. That makes you an especially poor choice of "savior" or even helpmate for this person.
On top of it, you assume she has poor self-esteem without getting to know her first. One of my peeves is the social expectation that all fat people have poor self esteem (Heck we all must, or we wouldn't let ourselves become so ugly right?). And if we seem to like ourselves, well it has to be a "cover" doesn't it? Either that or they're just crazy or stupid, because you have to be braind dead or insane to like yourself if you're fat - we all know that, don't we? (Oops there goes that sarcasm again).
The majority opinion and social expectation of self-hatred, makes it almost inevitable. We human beings are social animals, and it's very hard to hold beliefs that are counter-culture. If most people in our social world think we should hate ourselves, most of us will. If the world tells us that we're lazy and eat nothing but crap. Some of us will.
When you expect people to break the stereoype, it's surprising how often they do (I learned that as a probation officer).
You can't be a help to this woman or anyone else, until you can see past the sterotypes. Get to know a person as free of prejudgements as possible, share knowledge, share your experiences, but realize that she may have more to teach you than you have to teach her.
I think that you're identifying with this particular individual, and taking the things that I said as if they're directed towards you. And yes I was "ignorant" on the subject so I came here for information. I clearly stated that I did not know what it was. I consider what people have to say here important and legitimate, so I came here to "educate" myself on the subject.
As a former soldier, and soon to be nurse, it is just in me to want to help people. My feelings come from a place of sincerity. I was not stereotyping, this was not some random stranger on the street that I was offering to "save". It was not a snap judgement. I have had a few conversations with this individual and I spend time with her in very close quarters every day. I was not offering to "save" YOU so I don't know why YOU'RE getting so offended.
You're the one stereotyping. I was talking about this one person in particular, and you're acting like I meant it toward every morbidly obese person on this planet. She does have low self esteem, as she shared it with the class, if you don't, than good for you. Not everyone can make it to 400lbs and still feel good about themselves, it's a great accomplishment. Weight and self esteem issues usually do go hand in hand, one leads to the other, and it's a vicious cycle; it's not something I was assuming, it's cold hard fact, whether you like it or not. And guess what, whether she has knee issues or not, in a month she has to go up and down stairs when we get to the hospital, so that is what I was thinking of. My concern was genuine, not out of superiority as you're making it seem.
Your responses make sense now... they come with baggage. You've been offended in the past by people offering to "help" you. Pride can be a pretty useless and misguided emotion as well. You may not want to include anyone in your struggle, but you shouldn't stereotype and assume everyone else is like you, at the end of the day this post wasn't about you. Maybe if you open your mind long enough to realize that, you won't be so angry with me.
I like help, and I appreciate support. Having her as a weight loss buddy would be greatly motivating for me and I'm sure I would learn a lot from her, never did I deny that.
Geez... talk about having a chip on your shoulder....
