While I feel sort of appreciative that someone is sticking up for "my kind," I acknowledge that A) Being fat isn't healthy any way you spin it and B) It's my own fault that I got this way. Now, if by "fat acceptance" someone means saying a size-14 woman can be beautiful, I'm all for it. But 5'5" 300 pounds is not ok. Ever.

MyBestYear, I think some of us are getting out wires crossed and not understanding each other. I see from your posts that you're talking about fat acceptance on a personal level. That's not what I'm talking about and I think a lot of others here aren't talking about that either. I really don't feel much different than you do with regard to my own body. I don't judge my own worth based on my body type, but I also am not happy with my body. I accept my fat in terms of "this is how I am, right now and there's no other way I can be in this moment" but I would not be happy to be this weight for the rest of my life. The fat acceptance movement, however, is not about individuals accepting their own fat (if your definition of "acceptance" is thinking their body is the best it can be or that fat is better than not fat). FA is about social change, and the social acceptance of people who are chubby, heavy, fat, fluffy, obese, etc. Now, as an OP stated, there are individuals within the FA movement that have negative opinions about those who want to lose weight for any reason, but I don't think the movement as a whole supports that.

THIS. 100%.

I don't think the majority of people would ever tell someone to just accept thay they are fat. Let's face it - As a whole, society would prefer it if we all dropped the pounds!

But not everyone is going to make that descision for themselves, because some people are blessed(And I do mean blessed) enough to feel totally okay with themselves in their own skin... Even if it holds an extra 20... 50... 100 pounds or more. Some people... Are just happy being themselves. And some aren't, but don't know how to change it. But neither of these two groups should be ridiculed or put down for the way they are... And THAT, I believe, is the true message of the FA movement. :smug:

Something that isn't often taken into account is that some of the most popular ways to lose weight, often contribute more to weight gain than weight loss. If you're "doing it wrong," the harder you try, the fatter you get.

In a very real sense, I "dieted my way" to my highest weight. I stopped gaining weight nearly the moment I embraced fat acceptance rhetoric (which at the time was very much focused on HAES (eating whole foods, being active and letting your "natural" weight emerge).

I looked forward to my BBW magazine every month, because I found articles about fat and very fat athletes. Women participating and even teaching aerobic exercise, hiking, white water rafting, horseback riding, swimming, dancing, bicycling and even jogging (personally I think jogging is irresponsible at morbidly obese weights, but it was still great to see people not afraid ot be seen doing something active).

I was exposed to the idea that crash dieting caused more weight gain than loss, and it sure seemed true for me. When I stopped crash dieting, I almost immediately stopped bingeing and I stopped the gain/loss cycle. I didn't really lose weight, but I didn't gain either. I suspect that I would have been a normal weight or only slightly overweight if I had never dieted in the way that I was taught (which was primarily crash dieting). If I hadn't been forced onto the roller coaster of crash dieting at the age of 5, and put on amphetemines at age 13, I think course of my weight and health would have been much different.

It's easy to say that a fat person should have enough confidence in themselves that they shouldn't care what people think of them in a bathing suit - but if no one has confidence in you from the time you're a "worthless, fat kid" it's pretty hard to have confidence in yourself.

I was very lucky in that I excelled in school, made friends easily, was exceptionally creative and funny (escaping bullying by making fun of myself before the bully had a chance to), but I still learned early what people expected of me where weight was concerned and I internalized a lot of those messages.

Swimming was the one athletic activity where I could excel and actually compete successfully with "normal" peers, so I was willing to endure the "death march" to the water. Once in the water I felt safe, because even if someone did say something nasty I didn't have to hear it, if I was swimming.
I don't know why I was able to overcome the social pressure to stay out of the water, because I wasn't able to overcome all of the other activities on the fat people shouldn't list. My mother convinced me that I would injure a horse if I tried to ride one (at 11 and about 200 lbs). She had her own "fat people shouldn't list" ingrained in her so deeply, she had to burn it into me too, regardless of the cost.

My husband is fond of saying that "people are sheep." It's a kind of nasty thing to say, but it's true too. We learn how to treat ourselves and other people by the way we are treated. If we're taught that we are stupid, lazy, crazy, and worthless - we will believe it. It's how the human brain works. "Majority rules," if almost everyone thinks it, it must be true.

My journey to treating myself better runs parallel to my learning that I deserved better and that the common opinion isn't always the correct one. Exposure to FA inspired me to begin that journey. Even though I thought I was a pretty cool person most of my life, I still compartmentalized the fat. I was intelligent, hardworking, ambitious and highly motivated in all areas of my life except my weight. When it came to my weight, I believed the social hype - I was lazy, stupid, crazy, greedy... all the things I was taught to think about fat people and as a result turned on myself (it's why fat people actually have the WORST sterotypes against fat. It's a common finding in the research that fat people hate and hold more stereotypes about fat than even thin folks do).

How can any of expect to be respected if we've not been taught to respect ourselves? And fat people are not taught to respect themselves. They're taught to hate themselves until they become thin enough to be worthy of respect and kind treatment.

I haven't kept up with the arguments of the FA. The last time I belonged to NAAFA was in the early 90's. At the time, the push was to stop crash dieting, stop eating processed foods, and get out in the world and MOVE. HAES didn't mean that you tried to stay fat, it meant that you could improve your health and start participating in healthy behaviors NOW, not just after you'd lost 20 lbs, or 50 lbs or 200 lbs.

Oddly I still see people reacting to a fat person having any kind of life as proof of the person is immoral or crazy. If fat persons (woman persons especially) are seen enjoying themselves in any way they're "deluding themselves into thinking fat is ok." Any fat person who stands up for his or her rights in any way is a weirdo who loves being fat.

My mother was mortified that I dated when I was fat, because I was only going to "get" a guy who would try to keep me fat. Even after marrying a man who outweighed me (which was finally ok only because I was too old to be picky at 35) I was advised that I wouldn't be able to "keep him" unless I lost weight (even if he didn't lose weight. A fat man is often still seen as a better catch than a fat woman).

The wrong ideas about fat have to be combatted, so that people aren't afraid to be seen, aren't afraid to try to get healthy, aren't afraid to participate in life until they become acceptable.

I learned the hard way that putting your life on hold until you lose the weight doesn't help you lose it. Only by living your life can you make progress in chaging it. "On-hold" never works because it fosters depression and depression fosters hopelessness and hopelessness and change are mutually exclusive. You can't change if you don't believe that change is possible.

And we are social creatures, the more people who believe IN us, the easier change becomes. Working in social service most of my adult life, I've learned that it's universally true. Whether it's a career criminal trying to go straight, an addict trying to get clean, a smoker trying to quit, or an obese person trying to lose weight - the more people you have supporting your intended change, the more likely you are to succeed.

Often fat people have very few people truly believing in them. As a society we don't have much faith in people's ability to change (but most especially in regard to fat). We don't hear "you can do it," nearly as much as we hear "you haven't succeeded yet, what makes you think you can succeed now."

I would suspect that 3FC members are more successful than those without such a support network simply because the folks here are saying "you can do it," not "who are you kidding Fatso!"

In an odd synergy of timing, I'm currently reading Lessons From the Fat-O-Sphere - Stop Dieting and Declare a Truce With Your Body. The book begins by emphatically stating that diets and lifestyle changes never work and it's literally impossible to lose weight and keep it off forever, so don't even try. Of course, I don't agree with that.

Otherwise, it's a pretty enjoyable read.

I refuse to take the world view of a victim. My fat, once I became of an age to do something about it -- is as a result of my choices. I am not fat because someone didn't believe in me, or because someone hurt me. I am fat because of my own choices. I can hold those beliefs and still love myself. Because of my personal convictions and belief system, I don't look to the world to validate me (except in my weaker moments).

I refuse to look at the world as some sort of war against fat people. Sure, there are some jerks (what else is new) but by and large, we can choose who we surround ourselves with and who we allow into our personal lives. Even at my highest weight I didn't adopt a world view that says fat people are the 'untouchables' of the world. That hasn't been experience at all, (except in middle school where I couldn't choose my peers) because I didn't allow myself to choose that experience.

I guess my issue with 'movements' of this kind is that along with promoting an alleged 'you go girl, beauty at any size!' attitude, they simultaneously support and encourage a victim mindset -- everyone is against you, the world hates fat people, poor you, you can't help it, if you attempt to lose weight you truly hate yourself and you're weak if you can't just be happy as you are.... They simultaneously remove personal power as they 'claim' to build esteem. They simultaneously tell you that you *aren't* your weight by making the movement all *about* your weight.

and I don't align with that. It just doesn't feel empowering to me at all, but obviously experiences vary.

I kind of have to say, I agree with what most of MyBestYear has said.

It boggles my mind that someone would be so adamant that she is the picture of health and obese. That’s such a contradiction. If your organs and bones and joints could speak…they would probably ask for some relief, as would mine. I’m 24 years old and it makes me sad to think of the wear and tear I’ve put on my body by being overweight for the past 8 years or so. Why have unnecessary strains on your body? To prove a point?

I’ve struggled to learn to accept my body for what it is and to appreciate the things that are beautiful about it in spite of my weight struggles. I try to be positive, but I am never going to be the one on the podium, defending my right to be fat because to me, that’s ridiculous. Of course I have the right to be fat…I have the right to cut all my arms and legs off too, if I wanted, but why would I? Make a list of the ADVANTAGES of being overweight...

I think the very basic idea of Fat Acceptance is a good one. We should all be tolerant of each other; we should all have the same opportunities and be treated equally, regardless of our size. No one should be ridiculed or mocked or excluded because of their weight. But, then again, our society tends to work in cruel ways…most people have been left out or made fun of at one point or another and it’s not always weight related.

Things said here kind of reminded me of watching an Oprah show many years ago with my wife...

she had a lot of heavy people on and the point of the show was to be happy with yourself....be content in who you are....

I agree with that...but it seemed the focus was it's OK to be heavy/fat/obese....

Then for years we all know the attempts Oprah has made trying to lose weight...

complicated :dizzy:

Everyone's experience is different, because my experience with FA in the 90's, helped me gain more control over my life, not less

The message "you are not your weight, and you do not have to use your weight as an excuse to avoid living. You do not have to hide your head when others make fun of you, they are wrong, not you." Those messages weren't out there before.

Taking back my body and taking back my life out of the hands of social pressures led me here, not away. I would still be trying to lose weight by the inefective methods I was taught. Without FA, I'd probably weight 700 lbs today.

I agree 100%. I think FA is great- I think more people need to be understanding of overweight people. Personally when I see someone who is overweight I don't have "negative" thoughts towards them- but I do feel "bad" for them. I think it's cuz I project my own feelings onto them and wonder if they struggled like I have.

I agree our society is cruel- I know for a fact there are jobs I didn't get because of my weight. No matter how great of a candidate I was- my weight was more important than my skill set.

I hear you Kaplods :hug: I think there is a general agreement in this thread that the message I bolded is a very positive one. I guess my issue with the FA movement has to do with the fringes of the group. The messages that I don't feel are at all positive or productive (or to be honest, truthful) toward obese people.

Telling someone they are just swell the way they are is not always conducive to positive change. Now, I am not suggesting shaming or berating someone is the way either. It isn't!. However, I think there is a middle ground between

''You're wonderful, you are doing nothing unhealthy, obese people can be perfectly healthy (their whole lives), never change!"

and

"You won't be worthy unless you lose weight"


I think to me, that middle ground is where I am. Yes, I am wonderful, I love myself, God gave me so many blessings and traits that I am extremely proud of and happy about and grateful for.... but obesity is not one of the 'gifts' I was given.

It is a self-inflicted condition born of the inability and unwillingness to control myself, regulate my food intake, or direct my emotions in a healthy way. I can say that and still love myself. Loving myself and admitting the truth are not mutually exclusive. Saying that isn't berating myself, it is just a fact of life, and getting real about that instead of living in denial is very freeing to me. I am worthy [of love] regardless of my size, no one can give that to me and no one can take that away without my permission. Being thin doesn't give me worth, being obese doesn't remove it no matter what society says. Society tells me that admitting my lack of self-control or self-discipline is a weakness but I reject that because I don't answer to society. I answer to God. The 'weakness' lies in the denial and perpetuation of traits and activities that are unhealthy, not in admitting I have them and seeking positive change.

I think that you can be overweight and have perfect bloodwork and stats. Very likely, you're probably still young and your organs are capable of keeping up with the extra strain/extra calories coming in/etc. I see a lot of overweight 50 and year olds, who are fine with good bloodwork, but I think your body becomes more stressed with the added weight when you become elderly. I don't necessarily know a lot of obese people with problems at 55, but when they get older, the extra weight becomes a big problem. Suddenly, the body isn't as good as handling an excess of, well..everything. I know a lot of people develop health problems when they become elderly, but I think a more physically fit person with more proportionate weight for their frame would have a better chance at better health.

For a person who is 200 pounds and 5 foot 5, are they going to maintain this weight, or steadily put on more weight? We all seem to gain as we get older, so I would think overweight folks would be in more trouble more quickly if they didn't watch.

Are some people naturally at a setpoint of 200 pounds and 5'5? Doesn't it seem just a bit excessive for such a short person? How much muscle can it really consist of, unless you're a bodybuilder. It's an EXCESS.

I know that there are a ton of obese elderly people in nursing homes, but maybe they wouldn't necessarily be in a nursing home if they were in better shape. I'm not saying obesity will hurt your life expectancy, but I think it will hurt your quality of life in the longrun.

Here is website to look up all of the published literature on obesity:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/sites/entrez

Correlational or not, do you really want to take the chance?

Here is MY point of view!

How many fat people you think are truly healthy?
I can understand that maybe some of them have all the “perfect” numbers. But is it true for EVERY SINGLE one?
It is the same case that someone who smokes and don’t have (yet) lung cancer. That one person seems fine, but would it be true for EVERYONE who smokes? And it doesn’t mean that because you didn’t develop health issues so far you will ALWAYS be this way. If you keep smoking and is health now, you have a lot more chances do develop lung health issues down the road, than someone who doesn’t smoke.
It seems just logical...
At the same time I think that any individual has the right to choose to be health or not. You choose if you want to smoke or not, just like you also have the right to choose to eat health or keep weight on or not.
In my case I was an unhealthy obese (the 142 at my signature is the weight I was when I started my last journey of losing weight. I've weighted way more than that). I was overweighed because I was lazy and didn’t care about what I eat at all... and I was constant in “miracle” diets...
I am not ashamed to say that if I choose to change my lifestyle it wasn’t because of my health (it obviously improved, which was a bonus to me). I choose to lose weight because I didn’t like the way I looked and the way I lived. I few much better now when I go to the store and can finally choose what to buy because it looks gord on me and not to bring home clothes that only fit me. I didn’t like them, but I had no choice, because they were the only one they had on my size.
You can all call me vain... I don’t care... I have the right to be vain too... and have the right to want and enjoy being thin, just like I think everyone has the right to want to be fat, despite of it being healthy or not.
And I don’t think anyone has the right to mock or make fun of anyone because of their looks, race, religion, etc...
We all already have our issues with life as it is and we don’t need any more pressure from the society...
My point then is that we should be happy with whatever we choose to be and should not be afraid of being picked on because of our choice.

Hope my words don’t hurt anyone... I repeat: They are just MY point of view on this subject!

My weight is such a personal thing. Nobody can look at me and think, "That girl is the picture of health!" Nobody can look at me and think, "I want to look JUST like her!" either.

My problem with the whole "society decides who is beautiful" and fat girls ain't it, is that so many women and young girls who ARE beautiful people inside and out, believe that they aren't because they are different.

I don't love my fat. My fat is an integral part of myself, just like my eyelashes, I've had it my whole life and I've come to the point in my life where I can truly say: I love myself, but in not loving myself for many years, I have abused my body. Now my body is something I am NOT proud of, and not accepting of.

But the FA movement should not be about loving yourself just the way you are, and damn the consequences. It should be about promoting individuality and getting away from the idea that the perfect body resembles nothing more than a matchstick. We don't have to abuse ourselves to be perfect in society's eyes, BUT we should not abuse ourselves to continue being obese if we are not happy in that state.

Just like other civil-rights organizations, FA gets judged by the fringes. Just as gay rights has been and often is judged by ACT UP, and animal rights has been judged by PETA...

The extreme always gets the attention, and the moderates are judged by the fringe. Even low-carb is judged by an extreme example of diet (all-bacon-and-eggs-no-vegetables) so extreme that very few people follow that version of the diet, and yet all of the low- and moderate- carb diets are judged by the fringe.

In my short experience with NAAFA, the people I actually met (and there weren't nearly enough for me to say even at the time that they were representative of the whole group) held moderate view points. I suspect that's still true today. But the moderate viewpoint never gets the attention. Only the extreme "nut-case" version ever seems to get the spotlight.

Even this discussion proves it. It isn't the whole of the movement that is being criticised, it's the fringes. There's so much criticism of the fringes, that on the surface it seems like many folks are willing to thow the baby out with the bathwater. Reject the logical arguments because they're coming from (some people within) a group of people (some of) whom are also making illogical arguments.

I think the group has to be judged as you would any person or groups of persons - case by case, argument by argument. Even the most intelligent and wisest people on the planet still say stupid stuff occasionally. No one ever speaks only wisdom, some crap comes out of the minds and mouths of even the smartest, wisest among us.

I know that all of my beliefs are not true. I can't tell you which ones might not be, because to believe them by definition I assume them to be true. However I change my mind on topics often enough to know that I've been proven (to my satisfaction) wrong in the past, and probably will be in the future.

It just saddens me that everything from the group (and ones similar to them) is often dismissed because of the few irrational beliefs expressed by representatives (or bad examples) of the membership.