Originally Posted by mmm324:
(bolding mine)
that's the part i was talking about. i mean, it's just confusing to me.

I think those are all valid questions to ask. What makes someone healthy vs unhealthy? What are our indicators of health? If someone who is obese has indicators of health, why would someone immediately say they are unhealthy?

I can't speak for WarMaiden but I think in general people tend to throw around 'if you are overweight, you are unhealthy' quite a bit. What real evidence do we have?

Also, people want to lose weight for various reasons and we also have plenty of people on this site who have lost a lot of weight and are maintaining that weight loss. Beyond that, I've heard plenty of people say something to the effect that they don't care if they are healthy, they just want to be skinny so weight loss isn't always about health.

Originally Posted by mandalinn82:
This is the thing about the FA movement that makes me most uncomfortable. It's a WONDERFUL message to say "Regardless of your size, treat your body well and love yourself - you can be healthy even if you don't adhere to a media ideal, and your self-worth isn't determined by your weight". But it gets ugly when that message turns into "If you want to lose weight you don't love yourself enough"...which to me, was the opposite of my experience...I first realized that I was worthy/good enough at my highest weight, that I had value, and then I decided that I was SO valuable that I was worth taking better care of.

Reminds me of the Tyra Banks backlash when was so proud of her big behind and then lost weight. Hmmm.

just to clarify - i definitely agree with you that weight loss isn't always about health. my own journey with weight and weight loss has historically been more about UNhealth than health. and i also agree that there are plenty of people who are thin and unhealthy. i am not obese, but i am also not even close to optimally healthy.

I want to add that not all people who are part of or believe in the FA Movement believe that any attempts to lose weight are bad. NAAFA's official position statement on "dieting" is against it, but they appear to be using "dieting" to mean commercial products and programs with low success rates that are undertaken for the express purpose of reducing weight, regardless of health. I'm not sure what the official position would be on doing something like I've done, changing my food patterns to involve whole, less-processed foods that empower me to exercise and make me feel better, and yes, also resulted in weight loss. What NAAFA appears to be opposed to is the weight loss INDUSTRY, which sells a viewpoint of fat people as lazy/universally unhealthy/ugly to sell more products that, ultimately, don't statistically result in long-term weight loss/maintenance anyway.

Some NAAFA members or others associated with the FA movement may have the viewpoint that any weight loss, even if done healthfully with healthy motives is bad. I don't believe that's the majority opinion in that group.

I also can't believe an obese person is healthy. They are a walking time bomb. If a person wants to remain obese, I think they should have to pay for the privelege with higher health insurance costs.

Like I said in my original post, I have mixed feelings. I do accept that there are people of varying shapes and sizes in the world and I do accept that people deserve kindness regardless of their size (skin color, etc).

I don't accept that an obese lifestyle is a healthy one. I don't believe a slim body is indicitive of a healthy body either (by default).

I just don't believe our bodies were designed to be obese. Yes, we have the ability to store fat in times of scarcity (not unlike hibernating bears) but to embrace said fat as a healthy lifestyle choice doesn't hold weight with me (no pun intended).

Sure, all your numbers may be "healthy" and you may be obese. My mom has smoked for 40 years and does not have lung cancer. I used to lay out in the sun for hours and don't have skin cancer. I drove without my seat belt as a young kid and am still alive. I drove drunk a couple of times in my late teens and am still here.

Yet, most of us agree that tanning, smoking, riding in cars without seatbelts and getting behind the wheel drunk are not exactly lifestyle choices that lend themselves to optimum health and longevity.

Just because my numbers were okay at 315 lbs doesn't indicate health. To me, carrying around 150 extra pounds is not healthy no matter how I slice it just like smoking a pack a day wasn't healthy even though I hadn't gotten lung cancer.

I am not about hate. I love myself immensely. Enough to get real with myself and admit that I wasn't created to settle. I wasn't created to 'get by' or to 'beat the odds'. I wasn't created to 'accept' my obesity as a "healthy" lifestyle choice. I am not talking about 5 extra holiday pounds that come off every spring. I am talking an entire person.

Originally Posted by QuilterInVA:
I also can't believe an obese person is healthy. They are a walking time bomb. If a person wants to remain obese, I think they should have to pay for the privelege with higher health insurance costs.

They do. In fact, if they're trying to self-insure or are insured by a small employer they pay a far, far higher cost than the proportional increase in actual health-care costs (to offset the obese folks who are getting a "deal" as a result of group-rates from their employer).

My husband has a friend who is "obese" by the insurance charts. If he had to self-insure he would pay "obese" rates, even though this guy is not overweight at all. In fact, I've seen this guy in shorts without a shirt and he's super-buff (every muscle built up and clearly defined, six-pack and all. Any more muscular and you'd suspect steroids). He's all alpha-male uber-athlete. There's not an ounce of extra fat on this guy, but the insurance company would treat him as if he were obese.

Originally Posted by :
I also can't believe an obese person is healthy. They are a walking time bomb. If a person wants to remain obese, I think they should have to pay for the privelege with higher health insurance costs.

Just to further the discussion, what if that person eats a varied diet of nutritious foods and gets physical activity daily, but still falls into the medical category of "obese"?

The FA Movement generally promotes a concept of "Healthy at Any Size" - basically, that everyone should undertake healthier habits, eat a varied diet, get some exercise - but that making those changes won't bring everyone to a medically non-obese weight. Contrast this with the view of the diet industry, which is promoting a message of "fat is bad, so get thin no matter what unhealthy things you have to do to get there".

In other words, would we, as a society, be better off promoting good health habits and leaving weight out of it, knowing that some people would lose weight with healthier habits, and some would remain overweight or obese, but everyone would be healthier overall?

I agree somewhat, but I don't think you can be "healthy at any size". I think you can begin healthy habits at any size. I think by definition of how our bodies are made, if an obese person is eating nutritious food at reasonable portions and moving regularly, they are going to lose weight. It might be slowly, 3 lbs a month even, but you're going to eventually get to a non-obese place barring serious medical issues.

I do agree though, that striving for health at any size is a great thing. I just think one can't be obese and doing the things above without seeing a downward trend in size/inches.

I guess I am not articulating correctly. I don't understand how one can remain obese and maintain they are eating reasonable portions of healthy food and exercising regularly (without losing steadily, no matter how slowly).

Because if you are truly living a lifestyle of "healthy at any size" I would think your size would be slowly reducing, it seems like pure science would dictate that.

Originally Posted by roxmysox:
:) Interesting.

I'm 110% FOR the FA movement. Fact is, everyBODY deserves respect, and "fat hate" is the last acceptable discrimination

HIJACK Um, can we kinda give this trope about "anti-X is the last acceptable form of discrimination/prejudice" a rest? I Google "last acceptable prejudice" and in addition to fat-ism I get hits on Catholic-bashing, Mormon-bashing, other flavors of Christian-bashing, atheist-bashing, homophobia, age-ism, mental illness-ism, physical disability-ism, southern accent-ism, suburban-ism, even ginger-ism (red-hair prejudice, the latter a British issue probably tying into Anglo-Saxon prejudice about red-headed Celtic peoples). In other words, whatever group the speaker happens to belong to, trait they boast or issue particularly close to their heart, and has truly been or has felt discriminated against or is defensive about, will be deemed by that speaker to be the target of the Last Acceptable Prejudice. If we ever get rid of anti-fat prejudice, society will just replace it with anti-skinny prejudice instead, and there will be a thread about the Society for Skinny Acceptance on 3 Skinny Chicks Trying to Bulk Up. Someone will always find something to be prejudiced about. Take a look at the link below:

http://kateharding.net/2008/06/10/qu...-victory-daps/

I'm not defending any kind of prejudice, and I think we full-figured gals have the right to be seen as attractive as anybody else, even as we strive for health and fitness (the point I trust the Fat Acceptance people want to make) END HIJACK

Originally Posted by :
I guess I am not articulating correctly. I don't understand how one can remain obese and maintain they are eating reasonable portions of healthy food and exercising regularly (without losing steadily, no matter how slowly).

Because if you are truly living a lifestyle of "healthy at any size" I would think your size would be slowly reducing, it seems like pure science would dictate that.

Not really. According to science, I've pretty much wasted away to nothing by now. :rofl: I eat almost all whole foods, exercise an average of 9 hours a week, cook every night, get plenty of veggies, fruits, lean proteins, and whole grains, and eat about 1500-1600 calories a day. That got me out of the "morbidly obese" category, but I had to actively restrict calories, to the point that I could no longer consistently get through my workouts, to get my body into the "overweight" BMI range (down to the 1200-1300 range). To get into "normal", and I've done it, I have to cut calories to a point that I start losing hair and can't get all of my nutrients in (1000-1100), or exercise more than 15 hours a week. My current weight is a precarious balance between eating enough calories to keep my body from eating its own muscle and few enough that I stay in the "overweight" range.

Given that experience, it is not surprising to me that people could adopt healthier habits and not lose weight, quickly or at all. Our bodies are all different, and respond differently to calorie restriction, hunger, etc.

Originally Posted by MyBestYear:
I don't accept that an obese lifestyle is a healthy one.

I'm obese. I'm also, as I posted proof of from a blood draw done last week, 100% healthy. I would bet money that I live every day in a way that is more healthy than approximately 99% of Americans.

Tell me exactly how I am not healthy?

Just because you cannot believe it (because it's been drilled into your head by the culture) does not make it not true.

As to the question of "why I am here," I am at 3FC because sometimes the information here has been useful to me. I did not change my life 2 years ago in order to lose weight (primarily), I changed my life in order to become healthy. I could remain healthy and not lose any more weight very easily. Losing weight is, in fact, quite difficult for me--despite my extremely healthful diet and very active lifestyle.

Any weight loss that I seek now is about athletic performance and vanity. It's not about health for me, because I am already perfectly healthy.

This is a really charged issue. I'm not comfortable embracing my own weight mostly because of the poor lifestyle I was leading that led to this weight. On the other hand obesity in and of itself is a poor indicator of health and studies are increasingly showing this fact.

I just read this article that had good supported arguments on both sides.
Is the Fat Acceptance Movement Bad for our Health?

Please read the articles for the exact studies but in a nutshell the points from studies and medical professionals were:

Being overweight is generally bad for your health especially your heart.

But...

Studies have shown that being FIT is a better indicator of health than being THIN.

Originally Posted by :
(Barry Franklin, Ph.D., the director of the Cardiac Rehab Program and Exercise Laboratories at William Beaumont Hospital in Royal Oak, Michigan.) says that studies have indeed shown that fit overweight or obese people have cardiovascular mortality rates that are lower than thin, unfit people.

On the other hand...

Originally Posted by :
"Obesity is probably the only risk factor that has such a global negative impact on so many risk factors for the heart,"

and

Originally Posted by :
Franklin says that people who are overweight or obese already have one strike against them in terms of heart health, and need to compensate by monitoring other factors like exercise, blood pressure, and blood sugar.

Studies are showing that being physically active and eating well is more important to our health then being thin. The perception that thin = healthy, overweight = unhealthy is quite frankly... wrong. The focus should be on exercising and eating well no matter what the size. The medical community and our society shouldn't jump to conclusions just based on weight alone. As well the fact that BMI may be an easy way to track sweeping trends in health it is a horrible and inaccurate way to track health on an individual level.

Beyond the health issue, treating anyone with disrespect based on how they look is just wrong. We should have all learned this in kindergarten right? But for some reason fat jokes and bashing seems to be acceptable in our society.

I usually have problems with the extreme fringes of any activist movement regardless the cause. (Feminism, environmentalism, gay acceptance, fat acceptance, racial movements etc..) Unfortunately these are the individuals that often get focused on to discredit the whole movement.

Originally Posted by WarMaiden:
I did not change my life 2 years ago in order to lose weight (primarily), I changed my life in order to become healthy.

right - because at your heaviest weight, you were UNhealthy. and as you got healthier, you lost weight. or conversely, as you lost weight you got healthier.

Originally Posted by :
Any weight loss that I seek now is about athletic performance and vanity.

right, that was my other point. about it being more about aesthetics than health.

What I am wondering now, Sarah, is what force in the universe dictated to you the ability to determine exactly what has been drilled into me by culture?

Sure, you may be an obese picture of health. You have chosen to believe that, just as you choose to believe that society is the one telling me (and not common sense and life experience) that being 100+lbs overweight is not healthy.

Given that we are both exercising our freedom of choice here, I still choose to believe the contrary and will continue to 'accept' health and to 'choose' to strive toward a healthy BMI.