Where did I say it's ok to blame one's weight problems solely on genetics?

I said it's one of many factors involved, and one that we cannot discount just because we "don't believe in it".

Nothing more, nothing less.

It's perfectly fine to have a "rah-rah-sis-boom-bah" attitude in attacking fat. In fact, that's great. That's the attitude everyone who combats a weight problem should have. However, some people simply have a very hard time losing and keeping weight off due to genetic factors.

One of my own dear sisters is this way. She is quite likely clinically obese and she has such a hard time trying to lose weight.

I, on the other hand, am genetically gifted. I've been very muscular from day one. I'm one of those people who can just look at a weight and gain five solid pounds of muscle.

Why the differences? Genetics.

And it's very easy for me and others like me, who are more genetically gifted, to look at others and say "hey! your problem is just attitude! get to work!" but as I've said, it's just not anywhere near that simple.

I've taken Phentermine. Supervised by my doctor.

Genetics predispose me to be over weight? Yes, probably because most of the women in my family ARE over weight. That doesn't mean I HAVE to be. I think of Phentermine as a boosting point, and I think it can be very useful to someone who needs a push in the right direction. Only, however, supervised by a doctor would I recommend this. The point, or so my doctor told me, is to help my body acclimate to the new habbits and help me through the rough spots. NOT to fix my problem.

Emotional eating isn't genetic. Emotional eating is something I do when I have anxiety. I tend to think, that had I not learned to numb my feelings with food at an early age, I wouldn't have the problem I do now, despite how my family looks. I know despite my genetics I am capable of losing weight with and without the Phentermine.

Why then use Phentermine at all? It helps that part of me that really really wants that recess peanut butter cup. If I wanted to eat the recess, I would anyway, the Phentermine just helps curb the 'need', it's not magic, and it doesn't work by itself. If I am really set and determined, the Phentermine is a very useful tool and it's much easier to say no to the recess urge, especially in the beginning when everything 'feel's' so difficult.

I hope you all have a great evening!

For you, it would be "of course;" for me, it would be "of course not." We obviously won't be changing each other's minds on this one, so perhaps we should agree to disagree rather than clogging the boards with our charming banter about the human genome.

Quite true. And an individual can also vehemently ACCEPT certain things (such as studies) because such studies support the preconceived opinions of that individual -- and said individual may also not be correct. There's a wonderful book called "How to Lie With Maps" which my thesis advisor gave me when I finished graduate school. The premise is that any data, statistics, or test results can be manipulated in such a way as to provide the desired outcome for the initiator of the research. I am not saying that is true of the sources you have given me (which I will be reading later tonight if this weekend's four darling-but-devious prison puppies ever go to sleep), but rather that all studies have sponsors, and all sponsors -- whether they be philanthropic, academic, political, or corporate -- have agendas. And the majority of researchers need sponsors to continue their work. Obviously. Does this mean such studies are automatically flawed? Of course not. It only means that we (as the consumers) must think critically about ANY product marketed with the words "clinical studies show." It is not enough to simply accept a study as "correct" because it looks and sounds very academic/professional/whatever, or because it supports a belief you already hold.

If subjective beliefs have no place in science, then how are scientific hypotheses formulated? Does the researcher say, "I like lemurs" and set off willy-nilly into the wilds of Madagascar? No. S/he says, "I have observed that lemurs prefer unripe limes, therefore it is my hypothesis that there is either a key nutrient or pleasing taste to said unripe limes." Thus, his/her hypothesis is based on assumptions made from observations. And observations made by human beings are by their very nature subjective because they are simply the product of that human's perception of reality based on their individual experience. Hence, subjective beliefs lead to assumptions which lead to hypotheses which lead to research studies. Leonardo Da Vinci had the subjective belief that a mechanism with weird whirly-gigs flapping around on top of it might one day fly. And his subjective belief was correct. Obviously. Which is why/how it is that the Pentagon is paying my cousin to fly around Afghanistan in a mechanism with weird whirly-gigs flapping around on top of it. As far as your point on "what the research shows," please see the previous paragraph, re: research studies.

Some research may, yes. As I said, I have yet to tackle your generous list of sources. But some research may dispute that -- it's been a long day and I haven't had the chance to look into that, but perhaps I will. NEVERTHELESS, and as I've said (ad nauseum) before, obesity gene or no obesity gene, people can improve their health and the quality of their lives by changing their lifestyle. This has been proven again and again and again by individuals AND by reputable, independent clinical studies conducted by universities, research centers, non-profit organizations, and (GASP!) governments around the world. Suddenly discovering that (a) there is an obesity gene, and (b) you have it, does not mean you are destined to be obese for the rest of your life. Nor does it mean you should seek out a "medical" or quasi-medical solution. It means you should give yourself an honest chance to lose the weight naturally. If you have never been obese, you simply cannot understand the truly mindboggling path that lies before someone with a large amount of weight to lose. I was obese for nearly 10 years, and (for me at least) it was a horrible place to be. And if someone who is desperate to lose weight has no idea how to do it or has an utter lack of faith in themselves to do it "alone," then the idea of popping a pill sounds like the Holy Grail or the Yellow Brick Road to slenderville. And this is exactly what the diet pill industry counts on -- and CAPITALIZES on. They prey on vulnerable, discouraged people just to make a buck. And yes, I am "unfairly" applying a "stereotype" to an entire industry. Again. And I do so because I have no respect for corporations that wrap themselves in the guise of "health" and charge ungodly prices for questionable products that have the potential to cause health problems for the consumer.

I don't even know how to respond to this..."risk?" As in "to expose to hazard or danger?" Should I be expecting a midnight visit from the Thought Police or something? Is this China during the Cultural Revolution and therefore I should hide my laptop under a bathmat and burn my yoga DVDs lest I upset the diet pill industry's applecart?

True. In safe amounts, yes. Which is why I said "stuffing ourselves" with caffeine is not healthy. As in, popping Dexatrim like they're magical malted milk balls is not healthy.

Unless the moron who ODed was taking a substance that contained caffeine in high amounts at the recommended dosage. Then the company that makes, markets, and sells the product is in fact questionable. And the moron/s.

Reasonable, fair, and done. I have questioned myself, re: my labeling of the entire supplement industry and have found both the labeling and myself to be quite satisfactory.

Mostly because the entire premise behind the diet pill industry is flawed. Which -- I'm sure -- is a statement that will seriously tick you off as the industry is your bread and butter, so to speak. So yet again, I sense that neither of us will be experiencing a great conceptual epiphany or grand philosophical conversion on this topic. And if my reasoning seems "criss-cross[ed]" to you, then so be it. Your analysis of my reasoning is what it is -- yours. And despite the fact that you have been an interesting diversion, as well as a thought-provoking verbal sparing partner for me today, your personal opinions about my reasoning abilities are utterly irrelevent to me.

Yup. I'll become a believer like you when a reputable, independent clinical study reports the discovery of a healthy, safe, permanent weight loss pill (and I see it in the New York Times). If I'm going to ingest ANY medication or OTC product, I want it to be as close to perfect as possible. Because it's MY body and I only want the very best for it.

Well, then you and I will either continue to bang heads until the 3FC server overloads and explodes, or we will have to agree to disagree. Clearly, you value your profession, will stand by it, and have a personal stake in the development, marketing, and sales of "supplements" and diet pills. And just as clearly, I have an altogether different view, and no stake in the industry whatsoever.

Wow, you have GOT to be a lawyer with the seletive reasoning process you use and your apparent love of debate.

Here is a possibly shocking, yet true fact: Bill Gates will never, ever, ever, ever, ever, ever break the world record in the 100 meter dash. EVER. Pump him full of the best anabolic, androgenic steroids science has to offer, put him on the best diet and training program possible, and he will still never come close. He simply does not have the genetics.

Genetics is a powerful thing. Dismiss it's power if you like, but that won't change the role that it plays.

Once again, for the nth time because you keep ignoring this part of my previous posts, I'm not saying genetics is the ONLY factor here in obesity, but I am saying it is certainly is a factor for some. So don't feel the need to restate again that someone overweight can do X, Y, and Z to help them lose weight. I know and agree.

It's pretty amazing, however, that you continue to hold your line despite the research I posted (which you admit you haven't read) and the fact that you really don't seem to know much about the other side of the supplement industry. You know, the good side, which you pretend doesn't exist because it doesn't jibe with your unreasonable position.

I go where the data and research lead me. Do I recognize the possibility that it might be incorrect? Of course. But you apparently do not even go where the research points. In fact, you haven't even read the research yet, so one has to wonder, why are you still debating? Your position may not hold any water, yet you keep going? Should you not read the research first before you dismiss something? That would be the most reasonable thing to do, yes?

So who is really the one stuck on preconceived notions, I wonder? The one who goes where the research says or the one who doesn't read the research and discounts it anyway?

And I really hope you see the absurdity of this on reflection.

If you want only the best for your body, better not drink alcohol or ingest a million other things because none of them meet your unreasonable standard.

For the record, there is PLENTY of research showing the effectiveness of things like caffeine, acetyl-L-carnitine, green tea, sesamin, and so forth, in terms of increasing metabolism and helping with weight loss.

But given your propensity to ignore research, I'm not surprised that you didn't know that.

I'm sure you a very nice lady but I really have no interest in discussing these matters with someone who does the intellectual salsa around important facts and research that contradicts their position. Accordingly, I am bowing out of this discussion, but I'm sure you'll dissect my post anyhow to inject the same ol' "up is down, right is left, genetics is a factor for you but not for me" argument.

Diet Pills Suck.

You betcha I'm gonna dissect your post even though you're leaving -- because 3FC isn't about YOU. It's about discussion. And since you've provided some very juicy stuff -- not to mention made comments that are of the "baiting" variety and even a few that are flirting with the forbidden "personal attack" zone -- I shall discuss it with myself for a while. And with the one or two profoundly bored souls who may still be reading this never-ending thread from . I'm a Virgo. And we don't like loose ends.

Besides, you may just get the urge to come back later and lurk -- and I wouldn't want to leave you hanging.

Nope. I believe I already mentioned the whole vet clinic, doggie daycare, tutoring thing. And the info that I don’t generally toss out into the public domain is that I am also a writer -- hence, my "apparent love of debate" using the written word. And in answer to your relatively obvious next question/slam/jab...yes, I am published. And yes, by a real publishing house. For real money. And as such, I find dabbling with words and ideas to be great fun and generally quite rewarding.

Poor Bill (is the only response I can possibly give -- I guess?).

I don't recall dismissing the entire science of genetics. I DO recall dismissing genetics as a valid excuse for being (and STAYING) overweight or obese. In fact, I believe I revealed that my particular cross to bear in life is bunions. Which are genetic. Which I said already. A gazillion posts ago.

I'm glad we agree . There may be hope for us yet.

As surprising as this may sound, I do have other obligations and interests outside this thread. I haven't read the research yet because of the aforementioned obligations and interests.

You really are taking this a bit personally, Sir. I'm just a nameless stranger wandering around the same server as you, and yet you are positively rabid over my alleged "unreasonable" thoughts, opinions, and beliefs.

If I were arguing this before the U.S. Supreme Court, yes it would be quite reasonable. But this is a WEBSITE for Pete's sake. I have neither the time nor the inclination right now to read your sources. But rest assured, I am intrigued. And I WILL be looking at them. Just on my schedule, not yours.

Rhetorical question, obviously.

Ah. Nope. Still don't see it. Perhaps it's because I'm not "genetically gifted" enough to have the appropriate absurd-o-meter in my Neanderthal-like brain . Or perhaps you are overly accustomed to people agreeing with you. Which I do not. Somewhat obviously.

It is not unreasonable to be mindful of what you put in your body.

That may be so, and I wish people all the best if they try these products. I simply won't be one of them. Well, except for the caffeine (which I prefer in tea-form, not pill-form, BTW). I do not, however, slather my “problem areas” with powdered caffeine in an asine attempt to “spot reduce” my remaining bits of flab. Which -- ridiculous as it may sound -- is exactly the type of product marketed and sold by some of these “supplement” companies.

"Propensity?" That's quite an assumption considering you didn't even know I existed until quite recently. And -- somewhat ironically -- 85% of my work as a writer IS research. Admittedly, I have a propensity to prioritize my life in such a way that the requests and wishes of total strangers fall somewhere between watching my grass grow and de-linting the hall carpet by hand. And since you brought up something you're "not surprised" about, I'd like to add my own lack of surprise at the fact that your comments are steadily disintegrating into poorly-veiled personal attacks.

I'm sure you're a very nice gentleman, as well, and I'm also quite certain you will find (or have already found) many individuals who agree with you 100% on all of your points. And if that sort of discussion better suits you, then I wish you well. Oh, and BTW, I can't salsa. But I can do a mean merengue.

And and one last "dissection" before I put the puppies to bed...

Wow. Have they isolated that gene yet?

I, for one, would not definitely rule out Bill Gates in the 100-meter dash.

Very nice!

Squabble, squabble, squabble! I may be genetically programmed to interfere, but the more I watch the two of you flirt, the more I think it's about time for you to just GET A ROOM! The idea of our Savage's many, many, many pounds of solid muscle (who knows how many times he's looked at that darned weight?) comingling with the lovely merengue-dancing Bassett (who is, we are assured, a "very nice lady" - a compliment that would make any woman hot and bothered) just gets me all ...

On a more serious note, a few years ago I was prescribed Pondimin, which I believe is the Canadian version of Phen. I was on it for about 6 weeks, and was AMAZED!!! It made me totally indifferent to food. (German chocolate cake? Hmmm.... maybe later....) I've never had that attitude to any ingestable before or since. BUT - and it's a big but - I slept an extra 4 or 5 hours a day, dropping off whenever I got into a comfortable chair or couch. And even worse, I was in a mental fog ALL THE TIME. So given a choice between quitting my job (which requires mental acuity and considerable concentration) and being effortlessly slim, I chose to be employed. Today, many pounds heavier, I'm slightly tempted to go the drug route again, but in spite of my advanced age am not quite ready to retire. I also have a little voice in the back of my head that really doesn't think anything that can make someone as groggy as that drug did can be anything but harmful.

Yikes! Gotta get washed, dressed, and off to work.

And by the way, I did love the way we were all so easily diverted from a "serious" debate by the mention of Nemo cakes. I think Pavlov should do a study on us fat chicks and our programmed response to the word "cake"... from beyond the grave, of course. I know he's only with us in spirit.

Well, well, this has been quite a debate going on. When I read the subject line before coming in to this room, I thought I was going to read about diet pills, and somewhere I did. Actually I lose concentration easily so I ran through the debatesssssssssssss till I found someone talking about Pondimin. I took that several years ago, I am 5'9" and had got to 298 pounds. My mother was concerned I would die of a heart attack I was so heavy. Yes, I was concerned to, but I had other health issues and wasnt sure about taking Pondimin or not. I talked to a WIC nurse-Women, Infant, and Children, she was a coworker of mine, she said it was sort of like a catch22 at the point I was at, the drug could be a problem, she didnt know but also the fact I was so heavy was dangerous too, so her advise like it should be was to go to a doctor, so I went to a doctor, got on the drug, lost 65 pounds which was making me feel good, I was able to climb stairs and walk easier then they had people with problems with the drug. The took the drug off the market or at least where I live and had me take a heart test. I was a very fortunate one, had no side effects, took all the tests to make sure, but I gained back the weight I had lost and got to 283 1/4 pounds. I decided to try Weight Watchers again for the third time, this time I did it for a reason, to be healthier, not for a baby shower, wedding or my husband, I did it for my health. My brother was diagnosed as a diabetic and I knew it was a possibilty that I could become diabetic so I was tested. The doctor said I was not diabetic, so I asked why do I have blurry vision, the doctor said it was because I have low blood sugar which can develop into diabetes. I changed my way of eating, I eat alot of sugarfree, low sugar, fatfree and low fat now. I am now a lifetime member of Weight Watchers. I have lost a total of 130 pounds since I started the 3rd time. Diet Pills can help as a short fix. I dont think they are the answer for the rest of your life. I dont say one diet program is better than the other. Changing the way of eating, portion control, I think is the key. I know every individual will find the way of eating, I hate to say diet, its a way of life, everyone will find the right way for them. If anyone has Yahoo Messenger, feel free to add me to theirs. I would glad to be your buddy. My signature id is cowgirl73160.

Thanks for the interesting reading I love this website. Back to my dominoe games!!

Thanks,
Lisa

LovesBassets - 4; Sir Savage - ZIP.

You might as well give it up, Sir Loin of Beef. especially if your ulterior motive was - as I suspect - to peddle your wares to our members. Over the past five years or so here at 3FC, I've found your ilk generally has an ulterior motive...no wonder you say things like "the FDA doesn't have our best interests in mind" "OUR" of course meaning your company...yes?

Of course because of the Dietary Supplement Act of 1994 your ilk is pretty much free to run rampant with overblown and/or unsubstantiated claims on infomercials and websites - often scamming unknowing people through snakeoil marketing. Here at 3FC, we're doing what we can to keep people from throwing their money away on these often-useless products, which I'm sure ticks you off...oh well...ttfn

Regarding PONDIMIN...it is/was *not* the Canadian version of Phentermine - rather it is the dangerous "Fen" part of Phen-Fen - and was taken off the market around 1997 - at least in the US (along with Redux).

However, I tend to believe that it was pulled worldwide.

There's an interesting book titled "Dispensing with the Truth" that I read a few years ago, about the Phen-Fen debacle. After reading what the victims went through, I wouldn't touch Pondimin with a 60-foot pole, myself...

Thanks for the correction re Pondimin, Mrs Jim. I guess it's too late to join the class action suit? For some reason I thought the other half of Phen-Fen was not so much for weight loss as to keep you awake enough to swallow the Pondimin ) Part of my confusion is because (I think) the combo was not approved in Canada. Does Phen also make you sleepy and fuzzy?

And just BTW, much as I dream of a magic, no side-effects, perfectly safe diet pill, I know perfectly well that only a lifestyle change will work in the long run. But it sure was an eye-opener to (briefly) know what some of my skinny friends were feeling when they turned down goodies or ate only half of something because they "weren't hungry anymore". What a concept. I already knew about not being hungry, but had never understood not wanting to eat good things just because they were there... Maybe they're the ones with the genetic abnormality? Sort of like those mutants who think an Ironman Triathlon is for sissies, and who want to do a triple Ironman? (My apologies to any of you who think "mutant" is a little excessive...)

RFLMAO, Carla...that is a TRULY disturbing thought.