[LovesBassets]

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

but such genes have been isolated. Check recent anatomy and physiology textbooks, or better yet, go straight to physiology journals if you don't believe me.

My understanding is that the majority of such studies have been conducted using laboratory animals, not humans. If a colony of 100 C3H mice are given a certain gene (or gene blocker) and 75% of them become obese, it doesn't mean that there is a human obesity gene. If you have a link to a genetic study done on humans that identifies the specific HUMAN obesity gene, I'd love to see it (and that type of link is okay to post on 3FC, by the way). And I'm talking about a reputable study that doesn't include the words "could cause," "may be associated with," "might be linked to," or "could lead to" in the abstract, because those types of studies -- while interesting -- do not give a definitive answer. Using my cell phone "could possibly lead to" my developing brain cancer ("some studies say"), but I'm not tossing my $200 Nokia in a dumpster until someone with impeccable scientific credentials and a boatload of flawless documentation says it "DOES."

And again, even if I went to my doctor, had him yank a piece of my hair out so he could map my entire genome -- and learned that I have The Obesity Gene -- that doesn't mean I can't lose weight naturally. It only means I have to work harder than someone who has The Skinny Gene or The Normal Gene or The JenniferLopezButt Gene. If I had a gene that made me predisposed to cancer, I'd do what I could to minimize the risk -- exercise, no smoking, etc. There are certain genetic conditions that an individual can do something about. One may not be able to "fix" the gene, but one can make positive life changes to counteract the gene. Obesity, if it turns out to be genetic/somewhat genetic is something an individual can fix if they work at it. I see evidence of that every single day on 3FC. If "many" of these ladies and gents are genetically predisposed to obesity -- and yet they've lost 50, 100, or even 200 lbs -- then how are they doing it??? They ain't all on diet pills, I'll tell you that much.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

Because we and other nations like us are victims of our own success. We are societies of great wealth and we can therefore spend much more money on excesses, such as food. In these circumstances, genetic predispositions to obesity become more apparent.

What about the Scandinavians? The Swiss? The JAPANESE? These are all people living in supremely wealthy societies. Yet obesity has not even come CLOSE to epidemic proportions in those countries. Again, I ask what is so different about American society? I'll answer that, as it's a rhetorical question. As a culture, we're "victims" (interesting term) of our own laziness and love affair with fat-laden convenience foods and a ridiculously sedentary lifestyle that revolves around the TV, the internet, and (for kids) video games. We're also "victims," by the way, of thinking we are "victims" of practically everything and don't take responsibility for anything anymore because we're too busy being "victims." Watch Jerry Springer for 30 seconds and you'll see what I mean. And the term "victim," by the way, infers that we have no control -- that someone else has DONE something to us without our permission or blessing. It's like those people who tried to sue McDonald's for "making them fat." Did Ronald McDonald sneak up behind them, pin them to the sidewalk, and stuff a Big Mac down their throats? If he DID, then yes, they are "victims." But if they walked in and ordered the Big Mac themselves, then the only actual victims are their own blood vessels, hearts, livers, and GI tract.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

It's not realistic to look at things as if there is only one variable at play and only one variable. In reality, there are many variables at play.

Yeah. Variables like escalators, elevators, moving walkways in airports, TV remote controls, and those stupid little robot vacuum cleaners that save us from getting even 10 minutes of exercise by vacuuming the living room our own darn selves. God forbid we as a society should actually MOVE AROUND. Not to mention all the fat-laden, additive-rich crap sold at gas stations, football games, school cafeterias, 24-hour stores, etc. It's easier to buy a Twinkie in this country than a really good-quality mango. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the effort to be healthy despite the fat-favorable environment. Saying it's the variables that cause obesity is just another way for people to avoid being accountable for their own health and well being. Find that mango! Take THE STAIRS instead of the escalator! It's called "free will."

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

It's unfortunate that the bad apples spoil the bunch, in your mind.

In my mind, and in the minds of those who work at the FDA. Not to mention in the minds of the relatives of the people who died due to Fen Fen (or whatever the heck that stuff is/was).

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

The supplement industry is full of BS companies, sure, but it also has a lot of products that do what they say.

I think I'm stealing/paraphrasing one of Mrs.Jim's favorite lines here: If there was a diet pill out there that actually produced healthy, permanent weight loss, it would be on the cover of Time Magazine, NewsWeek, and the New York Times -- and no one in this country would be overweight.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

It's not fair to generalize an entire industry because of a few moronic companies.

I'm sure the entire diet pill industry will get over the unfairness of my opinions -- I'm just little old me and they're a multi-gazillion dollar industry. They've got bigger fish to fry. Or -- more to the point -- bigger scams to try. Plus, they're probably too busy counting their money (or planning their next NOT FOR CASUAL DIETERS advertising campaign) to care what anyone -- much less ME -- has to say about them.

And Meg has me curious now....who did you say you worked for? .

Editing now to add: And SirSavage, I just checked out some of your other posts. I'm curious...what makes "an avid recreational bodybuilder" such as yourself so keen to defend DIET pills?

[happydaisy]

Kate - If there was a butt kicking smilie I'd have to give a few!! Nice post!

[MrsJim]

Originally Posted by happydaisy

Kate - If there was a butt kicking smilie I'd have to give a few!! Nice post!

Umm I couldn't find a butt-kickin' one but what about this one.

[Amarantha2]

Originally Posted by LovesBassets

... And again, even if I went to my doctor, had him yank a piece of my hair out so he could map my entire genome -- and learned that I have The Obesity Gene -- that doesn't mean I can't lose weight naturally. It only means I have to work harder than someone who has The Skinny Gene or The Normal Gene or The JenniferLopezButt Gene. If I had a gene that made me predisposed to cancer, I'd do what I could to minimize the risk -- exercise, no smoking, etc. There are certain genetic conditions that an individual can do something about. One may not be able to "fix" the gene, but one can make positive life changes to counteract the gene. Obesity, if it turns out to be genetic/somewhat genetic is something an individual can fix if they work at it. I see evidence of that every single day on 3FC. If "many" of these ladies and gents are genetically predisposed to obesity -- and yet they've lost 50, 100, or even 200 lbs -- then how are they doing it??? They ain't all on diet pills, I'll tell you that much.

What about the Scandinavians? The Swiss? The JAPANESE? These are all people living in supremely wealthy societies. Yet obesity has not even come CLOSE to epidemic proportions in those countries. Again, I ask what is so different about American society? I'll answer that, as it's a rhetorical question. As a culture, we're "victims" (interesting term) of our own laziness and love affair with fat-laden convenience foods and a ridiculously sedentary lifestyle that revolves around the TV, the internet, and (for kids) video games. We're also "victims," by the way, of thinking we are "victims" of practically everything and don't take responsibility for anything anymore because we're too busy being "victims." Watch Jerry Springer for 30 seconds and you'll see what I mean. And the term "victim," by the way, infers that we have no control -- that someone else has DONE something to us without our permission or blessing. It's like those people who tried to sue McDonald's for "making them fat." Did Ronald McDonald sneak up behind them, pin them to the sidewalk, and stuff a Big Mac down their throats? If he DID, then yes, they are "victims." But if they walked in and ordered the Big Mac themselves, then the only actual victims are their own blood vessels, hearts, livers, and GI tract.

Yeah. Variables like escalators, elevators, moving walkways in airports, TV remote controls, and those stupid little robot vacuum cleaners that save us from getting even 10 minutes of exercise by vacuuming the living room our own darn selves. God forbid we as a society should actually MOVE AROUND. Not to mention all the fat-laden, additive-rich crap sold at gas stations, football games, school cafeterias, 24-hour stores, etc. It's easier to buy a Twinkie in this country than a really good-quality mango. But that doesn't mean we shouldn't make the effort to be healthy despite the fat-favorable environment. Saying it's the variables that cause obesity is just another way for people to avoid being accountable for their own health and well being. Find that mango! Take THE STAIRS instead of the escalator! It's called "free will." ...

You said it, LovesBassets!!!!

[LovesBassets]

If you think that's good, you should see the letter I sent (via registered mail) to Wal-Mart headquarters last month -- re: the puddle of urine I encountered in their housewares department .

[MrsJim]

Originally Posted by LovesBassets

If you think that's good, you should see the letter I sent (via registered mail) to Wal-Mart headquarters last month -- re: the puddle of urine I encountered in their housewares department .

Hm maybe it was just some really bright yellow wine that had leaked out of a bottle...

Anyway...I hear that "I/he/she can't help being fat because it's genetic" stuff all the time (we're talking REAL LIFE here). My response is - even if the genetic stuff were true (I'm thinking of the studies on Pima Indians in Mexico and Arizona) does that mean a person should just not even TRY? I'm sure that I'm genetically predisposed for heart problems, myself - my dad and all six of his brothers have had heart problems at some point in the past. So what do I do, just say "the **** with it, it's going to happen anyway" and go 'gentle into that good night"? Nah - I'd rather do this - do whatever *I* can that is recommended by my physician, the American Heart Association and just COMMON SENSE - by making changes in my personal lifestyle to accomodate the hand that I was dealt (whether or not that's true).

So for "I'm genetically destined to be fat" conversations, I always say - well then you need to make adjustments if you don't want to be that way - it's their choice...

Sorry for the rant...

[Sir Savage]

Originally Posted by Meg

Hmmm, it couldn't be that you're making those statements because you WORK for a supplement company, could it? (as you posted elsewhere) And you wouldn't just happen to be posting here at 3FC in order to PROMOTE your supplements in the future, would you?

It's against board rules to do that.

Originally Posted by LovesBassets

My understanding is that the majority of such studies have been conducted using laboratory animals, not humans.

Really? May I suggest some reading to lookup?

Loos RJ, Rankinen T, Chagnon Y, Tremblay A, Perusse L, Bouchard C.

Polymorphisms in the leptin and leptin receptor genes in relation to resting metabolic rate and respiratory quotient in the Quebec Family Study.
Int J Obes (Lond). 2005 Oct 11; [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 16231024 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Phan J, Reue K.

Lipin, a lipodystrophy and obesity gene.
Obstet Gynecol Surv. 2005 Oct;60(10):652-3.
PMID: 16186778 [PubMed - in process]

Wood IS, Wang B, Jenkins JR, Trayhurn P.

The pro-inflammatory cytokine IL-18 is expressed in human adipose tissue and strongly upregulated by TNFalpha in human adipocytes.
Biochem Biophys Res Commun. 2005 Nov 18;337(2):422-9. Epub 2005 Sep 21.
PMID: 16188228 [PubMed - in process]

Lee HJ, Kim KJ, Park MH, Kimm K, Park C, Oh B, Lee JY.

Single-Nucleotide Polymorphisms and Haplotype LD Analysis of the 29-kb IGF2 Region on Chromosome 11p15.5 in the Korean Population.
Hum Hered. 2005 Sep 13;60(2):73-80 [Epub ahead of print]
PMID: 16166779 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]

Eikelis N, Esler M.

The neurobiology of human obesity.
Exp Physiol. 2005 Sep;90(5):673-82. Epub 2005 Aug 16.
PMID: 16105936 [PubMed - in process]

Yiannakouris N, Yannakoulia M, Melistas L, Chan JL, Klimis-Zacas D, Mantzoros CS.

The Q223R polymorphism of the leptin receptor gene is significantly associated with obesity and predicts a small percentage of body weight and body composition variability.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 2001 Sep;86(9):4434-9.
PMID: 11549688 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Lakka TA, Rankinen T, Weisnagel SJ, Chagnon YC, Lakka HM, Ukkola O, Boule N, Rice T, Leon AS, Skinner JS, Wilmore JH, Rao DC, Bergman R, Bouchard C.

Leptin and leptin receptor gene polymorphisms and changes in glucose homeostasis in response to regular exercise in nondiabetic individuals: the HERITAGE family study.
Diabetes. 2004 Jun;53(6):1603-8.
PMID: 15161768 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Chagnon YC, Chung WK, Perusse L, Chagnon M, Leibel RL, Bouchard C.

Linkages and associations between the leptin receptor (LEPR) gene and human body composition in the Quebec Family Study.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1999 Mar;23(3):278-86.
PMID: 10193873 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Wauters M, Considine RV, Chagnon M, Mertens I, Rankinen T, Bouchard C, Van Gaal LF.

Leptin levels, leptin receptor gene polymorphisms, and energy metabolism in women.
Obes Res. 2002 May;10(5):394-400.
PMID: 12006639 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Mattevi VS, Zembrzuski VM, Hutz MH.

Association analysis of genes involved in the leptin-signaling pathway with obesity in Brazil.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2002 Sep;26(9):1179-85.
PMID: 12187394 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Skibola CF, Holly EA, Forrest MS, Hubbard A, Bracci PM, Skibola DR, Hegedus C, Smith MT.

Body mass index, leptin and leptin receptor polymorphisms, and non-hodgkin lymphoma.
Cancer Epidemiol Biomarkers Prev. 2004 May;13(5):779-86.
PMID: 15159310 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Katzmarzyk PT, Rankinen T, Perusse L, Deriaz O, Tremblay A, Borecki I, Rao DC, Bouchard C.

Linkage and association of the sodium potassium-adenosine triphosphatase alpha2 and beta1 genes with respiratory quotient and resting metabolic rate in the Quebec Family Study.
J Clin Endocrinol Metab. 1999 Jun;84(6):2093-7.
PMID: 10372716 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Wauters M, Mertens I, Chagnon M, Rankinen T, Considine RV, Chagnon YC, Van Gaal LF, Bouchard C.

Polymorphisms in the leptin receptor gene, body composition and fat distribution in overweight and obese women.
Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001 May;25(5):714-20.
PMID: 11360155 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Filozof CM, Murua C, Sanchez MP, Brailovsky C, Perman M, Gonzalez CD, Ravussin E.

Low plasma leptin concentration and low rates of fat oxidation in weight-stable post-obese subjects.
Obes Res. 2000 May;8(3):205-10.
PMID: 10832762 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

Mammes O, Aubert R, Betoulle D, Pean F, Herbeth B, Visvikis S, Siest G, Fumeron F.

LEPR gene polymorphisms: associations with overweight, fat mass and response to diet in women.
Eur J Clin Invest. 2001 May;31(5):398-404.
PMID: 11380591 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

That should be enough to get you started, but it gives a far from complete picture of what we're dealing with.

Yes , there is more than genetics at play. I'm not disputing that. What I am saying, however, is that it's not simply a matter of willpower for many people. Discovering and understanding the intricacies of human obesity goes far beyond simply having the willpower to lose weight.

Things are rarely ever as simple as they seem. You cannot simply discount other variables involved just because "you disagree". With all due respect, it's not a matter of belief here, it's a matter of what the data and research shows.

By the way, you talk about various things that individuals can do to combat obesity, but you discount the role that "diet pills" can play in doing just that. We need to be open to all possible options for living healthier lives, not just the ones that you subectively happen to like. There is no "one size fits all" treatment plan for anything, obesity, cancer, or what have you. We need to remain open minded.

In my mind, and in the minds of those who work at the FDA. Not to mention in the minds of the relatives of the people who died due to Fen Fen (or whatever the heck that stuff is/was).

Ah, yes, the FDA. Well, they approved the drug you speak of. And others whose risks, it turned out, outweighed the benefits.

They also regularly attempt to shut down alternative means of obtaining a healthy lifestyle.

The FDA does not have our best interests in mind.

I'm sure the entire diet pill industry will get over the unfairness of my opinions -- I'm just little old me and they're a multi-gazillion dollar industry. They've got bigger fish to fry. Or -- more to the point -- bigger scams to try. Plus, they're probably too busy counting their money (or planning their next NOT FOR CASUAL DIETERS advertising campaign) to care what anyone -- much less ME -- has to say about them.

There's a word for this- stereotyping.

Once again, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about the entire supplement industry simply because of some vocal idiots.

It seems you readily recognize the unfairness of your opinions. Well, as long as you recognize that they are indeed unfair, then mission accomplished there.

I think I'm stealing/paraphrasing one of Mrs.Jim's favorite lines here: If there was a diet pill out there that actually produced healthy, permanent weight loss, it would be on the cover of Time Magazine, NewsWeek, and the New York Times -- and no one in this country would be overweight

Perfection is an ideal that only exists in philosophy and fantasy. If you expect anything to be perfect, you will set yourself up for nothing but disappintment. The bar is simply too high and you will fall below it.

There is no pill that will shred the fat off of you and keep it off, without any effort on your part and without side-effects. It's simply expecting too much. They only provide assistance, nothing more.

We don't have such high expectations for other things in life, so why should we for "diet pills"? It's unreasonable.

And Meg has me curious now....who did you say you worked for?

I believe that is against board rules.

Editing now to add: And SirSavage, I just checked out some of your other posts. I'm curious...what makes "an avid recreational bodybuilder" such as yourself so keen to defend DIET pills?

Because certain "diet pills" (man I loathe that term) can help achieve fat loss safely.

[marbleflys]

Oh MY! whatta discussion......

Now don't chop my head off.....My Internist gave me a scrip last week for Phentermine (short term use, 2 months)....Phentermine is the better half of the Phen-Phen and is not off the market. I haven't filled it yet, but I'm going to try it. Previously I tried Meridia and while it doesn't actually make me stop eating, it does get me up and moving and feeling good.

Now I'm not morbidly obese, but I'm very slow to lose (it's taken me 10 mons. to get to where I am, give or take a couple of lbs.)....there's nothing wrong with my thyroid, I eat a healthy diet, I exercise and work my butt off. The SCALE WON'T MOVE!

Previously, I suffered from major depression for over 2 years and was prescribed several anti's that didn't work (except to give me a VORACIOUS appetite and a deep love for taking Ben & Jerry to bed with me every night)

Before that, I could diet/exercise and the scale would move about .5-1 lb. every week if I felt I needed to diet....I never had a weight problem until I reached my mid-30s.,I was a very active child/teen participating in several sports and ran track...

So I'm going to try this part of the "Phen" and see if it helps me. (putting on my protective gear to keep the rotten tomatoes outta my hair)

[LovesBassets]

Marbles...no worries about tomatoes, chickie .

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

May I suggest some reading to lookup?...That should be enough to get you started

Why thank you . I appreciate your help in getting me started.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

it's not simply a matter of willpower for many people. Discovering and understanding the intricacies of human obesity goes far beyond simply having the willpower to lose weight.

Agreed. It's also about dedication, habit, self-education, commitment to exercise, mental effort, positive thinking, self-assurance, planning, avoiding temptations, coming to terms with one's emotional connection to food, valuing one's health over convenience, overcoming a fat-ladened food environment, picking yourself up after you fail, and HARD WORK 24/7.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

Things are rarely ever as simple as they seem. You cannot simply discount other variables involved just because "you disagree".

I don't believe I ever said anything seemed "simple." Far from it. Losing weight can be one of the hardest things a person does in their lifetime for all the reasons mentioned in my previous paragraph. In addition, I can discount whatever I wish to discount. That's the beauty of democracy.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

With all due respect, it's not a matter of belief here, it's a matter of what the data and research shows.

Beliefs are born of experience -- both personal experience and the experiences openly shared by members of a community. My beliefs about weight loss come from such experiences. And while you have kindly supplied me with a few resources to "get me started" on the data and research, nothing is going to change my experience-based belief that natural weight loss is possible for 99% of the population -- obesity gene or no obesity gene.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

By the way, you talk about various things that individuals can do to combat obesity, but you discount the role that "diet pills" can play in doing just that.

Yes I do. Discount it.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

We need to be open to all possible options for living healthier lives, not just the ones that you subectively happen to like.

"Healthier" being the key term. Stuffing ourselves with questionable chemicals, additives, "herbal supplements," and caffeine is not healthy. And yes, I freely admit that I "subjectively happen to like" lean meats, whole grains, fresh vegetables, and regular exercise. My body likes them, too.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

There is no "one size fits all" treatment plan for anything, obesity, cancer, or what have you. We need to remain open minded.

True. But we also need to remain rational, sensible, and willing to question the motives behind a company that charges $45 for 2 ounces of a "diet" product. Too many companies are in it for the almighty dollar and do not have the consumer's best interest at heart, and all of us must take on the responsibility of thoroughly researching any product that promises us quick, fabulous results.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

Ah, yes, the FDA. Well, they approved the drug you speak of. And others whose risks, it turned out, outweighed the benefits.

Which only proves that it is up to the individual to educate themselves before taking any kind of "pill." That is common sense.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

They also regularly attempt to shut down alternative means of obtaining a healthy lifestyle.

Harmful and/or totally unproven alternative means such as coral calcium and all the other garbage pushed by that "Natural Cures Book" fraudster whose name I (thankfully) forget? Yep. They do. And yet my Reiki Master continues to practice. As does my cousin the accupuncturist, my homeopathic doctor, and my mother's herbalist. A distinction needs to be made between alternative means that have been proven to be harmful and/or useless (and yet people make piles of money hawking them), and alternative means that have been proven effective through reputable, independent clinical studies.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

The FDA does not have our best interests in mind.

This is a matter of opinion. And because the FDA is not driven by financial motives (unlike the diet pill industry), I'll stick with them.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

There's a word for this- stereotyping.

Again, I'm sure the entire industry will get over it.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

Once again, I'm sorry that you feel the way you do about the entire supplement industry simply because of some vocal idiots.

No need to feel sorry for me. And I do take supplements, by the way. Calcium supplements.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

It seems you readily recognize the unfairness of your opinions. Well, as long as you recognize that they are indeed unfair, then mission accomplished there.

The paragraph in which I "readily recognize[d] the unfairness of [my] opinions" was positively dripping in sarcasm. Such nuances are often missed in the printed media, therefore I understand your confusion. Mission failure, I'm afraid.

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

Perfection is an ideal that only exists in philosophy and fantasy. If you expect anything to be perfect, you will set yourself up for nothing but disappintment. The bar is simply too high and you will fall below it.

Agreed -- and I am somewhat confused as to when and where the issue of "perfection" ever came up in this discussion...

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

We don't have such high expectations for other things in life, so why should we for "diet pills"? It's unreasonable.

Agreed. Having high expectations of diet pills IS unreasonable. But ironically, these pills tend to be marketed in such a way that vulnerable, frustrated people ARE given high expectations. "When is a diet pill worth $153 a bottle? WHEN IT WORKS!!" I mean, is the consumer expecting to lose 10 lbs after dishing out that much cash? Why no, because "It's not for the casual dieter!" What kind of expectations are people SUPPOSED to have when faced with this kind of hooey?

Originally Posted by Sir Savage

I believe that is against board rules.

Saying where you work? I don't think that's against board rules. I've been open many times about where I work: at a vet clinic, a doggie daycare, and as a Social Studies and English tutor. I see no harm in sharing basic information such as that. If I started ADVERTISING my vet as the best one in Massachusetts and gave everyone his phone number...well, yeah, THAT would be against board rules.[/QUOTE]

[Sir Savage]

Originally Posted by LovesBassets

Marbles...no worries about tomatoes, chickie .

Agreed. It's also about dedication, habit, self-education, commitment to exercise, mental effort, positive thinking, self-assurance, planning, avoiding temptations, coming to terms with one's emotional connection to food, valuing one's health over convenience, overcoming a fat-ladened food environment, picking yourself up after you fail, and HARD WORK 24/7.

And genetics, of course.

In addition, I can discount whatever I wish to discount. That's the beauty of democracy.

Of course you can. You can discount whatever you want but that does not mean you are correct.

Beliefs are born of experience -- both personal experience and the experiences openly shared by members of a community. My beliefs about weight loss come from such experiences. And while you have kindly supplied me with a few resources to "get me started" on the data and research, nothing is going to change my experience-based belief that natural weight loss is possible for 99% of the population -- obesity gene or no obesity gene.

First off, subjective beliefs have no place in science. Once again, this is not a matter of belief, it's a matter of what the research shows to be the case with a high probability of being true.

I can believe that I can walk through walls, but quantum theory tells me that the probability of that occuring is approaching zero.

Similarly, you can believe that genetics plays no significant role for the obese, but the research tells us otherwise.

Discount what you wish, but do so at the risk of being extremely incorrect.

"Healthier" being the key term. Stuffing ourselves with questionable chemicals, additives, "herbal supplements," and caffeine is not healthy. And yes, I freely admit that I "subjectively happen to like" lean meats, whole grains, fresh vegetables, and regular exercise. My body likes them, too.

Case in point.

Caffeine is thermogenic, stimulates wakefullness, is neuroprotective, and safe in moderate amounts.

There's nothing "questionable" about this. Controlled research shows this to be the case.

Now if someone ODs on caffeine and messes themself up, that's an entirely different matter. But even then, the substance itself isn't questionable, the moron who ODed was questionable.

This is the case for many products out there, including green tea, acetyl-L-carnitine, sesamin, and so forth.

True. But we also need to remain rational, sensible, and willing to question the motives behind a company that charges $45 for 2 ounces of a "diet" product. Too many companies are in it for the almighty dollar and do not have the consumer's best interest at heart, and all of us must take on the responsibility of thoroughly researching any product that promises us quick, fabulous results.

Of course we need to question that sort of thing.

Just like you should probably question your labeling of the entire supplement industry based on only some of the moronic companies.

Only reasonable and fair, no?

A distinction needs to be made between alternative means that have been proven to be harmful and/or useless (and yet people make piles of money hawking them), and alternative means that have been proven effective through reputable, independent clinical studies.

Of course.

So why then can't you employ a similar reasoning and distinguish between good companies and bad companies instead of labeling the entire industry?

Hmm. Criss-cross reasoning, it would seem.

This is a matter of opinion. And because the FDA is not driven by the financial motives (unlike the diet pill industry), I'll stick with them.

No, they are driven by a motive that is just as bad- political.

Agreed -- and confused as to when and where the issue of "perfection" ever came up in this discussion...

If there was a diet pill out there that actually produced healthy, permanent weight loss, it would be on the cover of Time Magazine, NewsWeek, and the New York Times -- and no one in this country would be overweight.

In other words, a perfect fat loss supplement.

It is unreasonable.

So they why expect it per my italicized quote above?

Saying where you work? I don't think that's against board rules. I've been open many times about where I work: at a vet clinic, a doggie daycare, and as a Social Studies and English tutor. I see no harm in sharing basic information such as that. If I started ADVERTISING my vet clinic as the best one in Massachusetts and gave everyone his phone number...well, yeah, THAT would be against board rules.

It seems I've had a post deleted where I simply stated I worked for a supplement company. Mentioning it by name, I would bet, is a worse offense.

[Amarantha2]

Originally Posted by MrsJim

Hm maybe it was just some really bright yellow wine that had leaked out of a bottle...

Anyway...I hear that "I/he/she can't help being fat because it's genetic" stuff all the time (we're talking REAL LIFE here). My response is - even if the genetic stuff were true (I'm thinking of the studies on Pima Indians in Mexico and Arizona) does that mean a person should just not even TRY? I'm sure that I'm genetically predisposed for heart problems, myself - my dad and all six of his brothers have had heart problems at some point in the past. So what do I do, just say "the **** with it, it's going to happen anyway" and go 'gentle into that good night"? Nah - I'd rather do this - do whatever *I* can that is recommended by my physician, the American Heart Association and just COMMON SENSE - by making changes in my personal lifestyle to accomodate the hand that I was dealt (whether or not that's true).

So for "I'm genetically destined to be fat" conversations, I always say - well then you need to make adjustments if you don't want to be that way - it's their choice...

Sorry for the rant...

Mrs. Jim, I KNOW I'm genetically predisposed for a certain heart irregularity that has killed two family members close to me ... one only a few months ago ... and that just makes me wanna work harder and harder to live and to do that, I have to make those adjustments you speak of. I DEFY genetics to tell me how long I will live or how "fat" I'll decide to be.

So don't be sorry for the rant. You are right ... it's a CHOICE, even if there are factors involved that we don't choose. Isn't that the way with all of life? We don't choose lots of things and we can't control lots of things ... truthfully, the only thing people can really control is themselves.

Illustration: I DID actually have a Nemo cake today, thus killin' off the no-sugar vow yet again. It DID for a second feel that I had no choice but to buy that cake and eat it. I was in the drugstore on the way home from being out on a job that involved stressful confrontations. I KNEW that if I went into that particular drugstore, I would want a Nemo cake as an antidote to the toxic stress, because it had worked thousands of times before. I understood all the ramifications ... the cortisol connection (if it exists), the fat gene (if it exists), the psychological hunger, whatever ... still it FELT like I had no choice but to get the cake, but my experience told me I also had the power to resist, so I had to make a choice ... to fight the overwhelming feelin' I had that I really had no choice to soothe myself with the cake (and be hungry all day) or to eat the thing. I'm not concerned about eating it, just pleased that I can recognize that genetics or whatever may get a foothold now and then but only if I allow 'em to.

It's all about ME!

I really hope no one who desires to be at a better weight allows the "genetic" thing to bother them. Whatever the hand we are dealt, we really do have a lot of control over our weight ... not sayin' we'll all get to the exact figure we have in mind, but we can manage it.

[marbleflys]

OK, but WHAT is a NEMO-CAKE? (we don't have them in my area, which is probably a good thing).

But I do understand what you are saying about the compelling URGE. next time you will drive by the store....or take another route.

my friend has no control with ice-cream....if it's in her house, she'll wake up at 3AM and go immediately to the freezer and scarf it down.

I can be the same way too. But I've "trained" myself to just not buy the foods I cannot trust myself with. Or I'll buy it, have one or 2 treats then quickly bring the rest to work or give to my mom.

I don't blame my weight or slowness on any genetics (just in case SS thought I might be joining him)....My father's family is prone to morbid obesity and heart disease, high cholesterol, etc. My mother's side is completely healthy, low cohlesterol normal weight.

My cholesterol, general health is good (the depression came from adverse events beginning as reactive depression, then it snowballed). I think my wt. gain is caused by my age (peri-menopausal), environment and a sedentary job where I spend too many hours parked on my butt.

[Amarantha2]

Ya DON'T wanna know 'bout Nemo cake, Marble!

Actually it's a cult thing. I've been eatin' these for decades (hence the weight problem). They are a fresh-tastin' ol' fashioned line of snack cakes. I favor the carrot cake.

Sadly, there is no other route home but past Walgreen's ... my true spiritual home, BTW, where they keep the Nemo's.

My computer died when I was going to respond to your phen post ... no tomatoes from me either as I feel medication of any kind is a personal choice between physician and patient.

I agree 'bout depression and age impacting weight. Also my job is only sedentary a few hours a day, the rest of the time it's quite active, but I still seem to need a lot of exercise to manage my weight. But the good news for me is that the exercise fights the depression.

We don't yet know which side is winnin' ...

[marbleflys]

You & I are in agreement about the exercise.....I good AM workout before the day gets away from me makes a world of difference to my mood. and works better (for me) than all the zoloft, paxil or wellbutrin I've tried.

There is a special test I could obtain to check if my metabolism is affected from the long-term use of anti's, but I prefer to think I will heal within the year with exercise, diet and a swift kick.

Good thing we don't have Nemo in NJ....but cake isn't really my nemisis....it's chips or cheese and daily catering of food at my jobsite....it's really hard to sit around and eat salads when my students are dining on sesame chicken and crispy noodles...I have a budget and chinese food can be s-t-r-e-t-c-h-e-d to feed the masses.

[Amarantha2]

Yes, I need to do my X early in the a.m. as well or it tends not to get done. My spinnin' class at 5:30 a.m. (followed by core/ab class, then dynamic stretch) twice a week banishes depression for hours. I only do this twice a week but if I don't miss and stick to it, it leads me to make it into the gym on the other days as well. Today is a bust as I had to go on photoshoot early.