Anyway, by the definition you give here, my eating behavior is dysfunctional, and that word has a lot of negative connotations. I'm not personally insulted, but I can see how others who, for example, count calories would be insulted by this.
Perhaps in the future you can find some other words that more accurately describe your point, assuming you didn't actually mean doing anything but eating intuitively is doing it wrong. And by your most recent response it doesn't seem you meant that. That's just how the word choice comes across.
According to the program you're following then what I'm doing is considered wrong too, there's no way that we can align our methods. That's why I don't go into the Calorie counter threads and argue with the posters there, that's why I don't go into the carb counter threads and lecture people on the language they use or find ways to be insulted with what method they are following, I respect their need to foster their diet plans and support eachother, and so I expect that if a thread is labeled IE then I am reaching out to other IEers and should feel a level of freedom to discuss the methods we follow without having backlash from other types of dieters. According to the plan that has been set forth for me by myself and my nutritional therapist then yes, those methods that I listed of trying to control my weight have not only been ineffective but also worked against me. If I am not aware of the dysfunctional aspects of my eating patterns then I cannot work on bettering myself.
I don't wish to disclude anyone from the discussion but I also cannot alter the philosophy of my program in order to avoid insulting anyone. I don't feel insulted by calorie counters, why should anyone feel insulted by someone who is learning to be an intuitive eater??
According to the program you're following then what I'm doing is considered wrong too
Not really. I don't think you're doing anything "wrong". My program is my own. For me it is a great method, and if someone was asking me for advice I would recommend what I'm doing. But as with everything, it's not for everyone.
I would never look at what you're doing and label it dysfunctional or disordered just because you're not counting calories. The problem I have is with the negative word choice. To be honest, I don't care if you think I'm dysfunctional with my eating, because I know I'm not. Words mean things, though, and I could see how others might be offended.
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That's why I don't go into the Calorie counter threads and argue with the posters there, that's why I don't go into the carb counter threads and lecture people on the language they use or find ways to be insulted with what method they are following, I respect their need to foster their diet plans and support eachother, and so I expect that if a thread is labeled IE then I am reaching out to other IEers and should feel a level of freedom to discuss the methods we follow without having backlash from other types of dieters.
I hang around the Chicks in Control boards because as I mentioned before, I have problems with binge eating. I also like to click on Today's Posts and see what's current. For example, I tend to read the IP forums a lot even though I know that diet is not for me. I like to see what's going on everywhere.
If there was a calorie counting thread where someone said something along the lines of, "IE is dysfunctional because there's no control. They just eat whatever and whenever they want," then I think you would be fully justified in popping in and saying, "Actually, it's not dysfunctional. Let me tell you more about my experience. By the way, dysfunctional is a strongly negative word and I don't appreciate being labeled as such."
You're free to discuss the methods you follow. As a member of the 3FC message boards, I'm also free to point out that I think your word choice for describing other diet methods carries negative and judgmental connotations.
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According to the plan that has been set forth for me by myself and my nutritional therapist then yes, those methods that I listed of trying to control my weight have not only been ineffective but also worked against me. If I am not aware of the dysfunctional aspects of my eating patterns then I cannot work on bettering myself.
This is MUCH different than labeling these patterns as dysfunctional overall. For example, I can understand that counting calories can have a very negative effect on someone in recovery from an eating disorder. That doesn't mean that the method itself is dysfunctional, or that anyone counting calories is eating dysfunctionally.
For you these methods don't work, and IE does. I get that. I truly think it's great that you've found a method that is working for you.
But the way you presented it was that anyone who doesn't use IE is dysfunctional. I think your point was that anything other than IE is dysfunctional for you. That's a much different statement.
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I don't wish to disclude anyone from the discussion but I also cannot alter the philosophy of my program in order to avoid insulting anyone. I don't feel insulted by calorie counters, why should anyone feel insulted by someone who is learning to be an intuitive eater??
I think I pointed out earlier I was not insulted personally. And I don't think anyone is insulted that you are learning to eat intuitively. That doesn't make sense. But I can see how being called a dysfunctional eater for counting calories could insult someone, though.
I believe this whole issue stems down to a communication mishap, but please correct me if I'm still not understanding your initial point. I believe your point is:
"For me personally, any method of controlling my food intake other than IE is dysfunctional and can lead me into disordered eating. I've been learning a lot by observing the habits of others. I can see my own dysfunction reflected in some of them, and it's making me uncomfortable to face it head on. Watching my son and other kids eat intuitively has been helping me overcome these problems."
Worded that way, it sounds like you're starting to get into the psychology of how you eat in a way that will continue to lead to health. That's great! I wish you continued success.
But your initial word choices came across as:
"I've been watching people do x, y, and z. These people are doing it wrong and are really dysfunctional and some are even anorexic. Counting calories is dysfunctional across the board. IE is the only non-dysfunctional eating plan."
From your follow up responses, I don't think this is how you meant it, but that is how it came across initially. That's why a couple of us have take exception to what you said. Not because we're IE bashing. If it works for you, awesome. Keep at it.
I agree atmos - I think that its important to practice what you preach, or don't preach it at all. If someone say things like "I respect other methods, but this is what works for me" and then acts otherwise or says that they don't like to judge people, but makes harsh statements all the time, it makes those words meaningless.
Oh and magical ABSOLUTELY!! Black Widow works like crazy, I can't imagine the discipline of competitive eaters. I would never do it as a career I'd suffer from so much indigestion and the extremity would just be too much. I just wanted to try it for 1 contest. Maybe not chili!
Well said atmos. Wannabe, this is not the first time for me that I've pointed out to you the way that you word things can sometimes come across in this way. However, I thin atmos did an excellent job rewording it to express what it seems you were trying to say without it inadvertently being offensive to others. I'm not saying I was personally offended.
It is a two way street, and saying what was said in you OP about other peoples eating habits, how they are dysfunctional, but then throwing a bit of a tantrum when I pointed out that their are people that think IE is wrong, is a a little hypocritical, don't you think?
If there was a calorie counting thread where someone said something along the lines of, "IE is dysfunctional because there's no control. They just eat whatever and whenever they want," then I think you would be fully justified in popping in and saying, "Actually, it's not dysfunctional. Let me tell you more about my experience. By the way, dysfunctional is a strongly negative word and I don't appreciate being labeled as such." Maybe you feel comfortable doing this but in reality 3FC strongly discourages people from visiting subforums with the intention to argue against their method. It's a losing situation anyway to enter a forum in which I do not find any support just to argue against it and set records straight, there's no need for that. The subforums are for support within dieting philosophies. I've seen some derogatory references to the "eat anything you want crowd" in a subforum but I don't participate in their discussions. The moderators wouldn't allow it and I wouldn't want to be rude either. IEers don't have a subforum, we label our threads IE and try to carve out our own little subforum this way. Perhaps you were not aware of this.
You're free to discuss the methods you follow. As a member of the 3FC message boards, I'm also free to point out that I think your word choice for describing other diet methods carries negative and judgmental connotations. That's what moderators are for.
This is MUCH different than labeling these patterns as dysfunctional overall. For example, I can understand that counting calories can have a very negative effect on someone in recovery from an eating disorder. Yes! It exacerbates my eating disorder!That doesn't mean that the method itself is dysfunctional, or that anyone counting calories is eating dysfunctionally. Never said it was.
For you these methods don't work, and IE does. I get that. I truly think it's great that you've found a method that is working for you.
But the way you presented it was that anyone who doesn't use IE is dysfunctional. I think your point was that anything other than IE is dysfunctional for you. That's a much different statement.
I think I pointed out earlier I was not insulted personally. And I don't think anyone is insulted that you are learning to eat intuitively. That doesn't make sense. But I can see how being called a dysfunctional eater for counting calories could insult someone, though.
I believe this whole issue stems down to a communication mishap, but please correct me if I'm still not understanding your initial point. I believe your point is:
"For me personally, any method of controlling my food intake other than IE is dysfunctional and can lead me into disordered eating. I've been learning a lot by observing the habits of others. I can see my own dysfunction reflected in some of them, and it's making me uncomfortable to face it head on. Watching my son and other kids eat intuitively has been helping me overcome these problems."
I appreciate that you are trying to understand what I mean and that I dont' take issue with other dieters, only discussing through the lense of IE the eating/dieting behaviors that exacerbate my ED. I too come upon posts where I think "that could have been phrased better" but would not presume to reword it.
Worded that way, it sounds like you're starting to get into the psychology of how you eat in a way that will continue to lead to health. That's great! I wish you continued success.
But your initial word choices came across as:
"I've been watching people do x, y, and z. These people are doing it wrong and are really dysfunctional and some are even anorexic. Counting calories is dysfunctional across the board. IE is the only non-dysfunctional eating plan." This is what you are accusing me of saying, I did not say this, here let me cut and paste exactly what I said "Secret eating is only one aspect of dysfunctional eating. Others would be guit and shame, justifying food "well I only ate a small breakfast so it's ok if I eat this donut now," self judging, and all methods of controlling food intake such as calorie counting, food restriction or deprivation, weighing food, etc. In relation to an intuitive eater this is all dysfunctional."I did not say across the board, I did not say calorie-counters are dysfunctional, I said that calorie counting is a dysfunctional way of eating in relation to being an intuitive eater. But whatever, we can argue semantics all day long, the point is that my awareness in myself has raised awareness of what's going on around me. I don't need to apologize to anyone about that, anymore than I have to apologize for wearing the color yellow.
From your follow up responses, I don't think this is how you meant it, but that is how it came across initially. That's why a couple of us have take exception to what you said. Not because we're IE bashing. If it works for you, awesome. Keep at it.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a certain diet. I can respect anyone as a person, that does not mean I have to enjoy and like calorie counting - what a person puts into their mouth is none of my business. But living in a diet culture comes with a lot of consequences. It's considered very "cool" to talk about calories and protein ratios, it's considered cool to be a fitness fanatic. There are some societal dietary norms that are accepted. For example, in the past when I used to hear my friend criticize every bite of food or diet relentlessly I used to think it was awesome, wow how can she be so diligent while I'm such a failure? And now I realize that it's not really healthy to scrutinize and badger oneself over what we eat. It was something I used to think was necessary and now I don't. It's quite a drastic shift and I'm still coming to terms with it and so every situation that I can observe other eaters becomes fascinating to me.
There's nothing good anorexia by the way. If I see someone and I think they are anorexic it's not because I'm judging them, it's because it's deeply concerning to see your old rommate who went from being thin and healthy to looking quite sick.
There's nothing good anorexia by the way. If I see someone and I think they are anorexic it's not because I'm judging them, it's because it's deeply concerning to see your old rommate who went from being thin and healthy to looking quite sick.
And there is nothing good about over eating and being overweight. Those friends may be thinking that same thing about you and your being over weight. How does that make you feel? I know the thought of someone looking at me and thinking they are deeply concerned because I look sick, would not leave me with a good feeling, that's for sure. And believe me many people look at those of us that are overweight and obese with those exact thoughts, that we are sick and unhealthy, and they are concerned for us. Its not coming from a place of judgment, YET I bet when it is done to you, it feels that way.
Last edited by GlamourGirl827; 05-08-2014 at 12:45 PM.
Maybe you feel comfortable doing this but in reality 3FC strongly discourages people from visiting subforums with the intention to argue against their method.
At no point have I argued against IE. At several points I have said I genuinely am glad you found IE is working for you and I wish you continued success. What I am saying is that classifying other diet methods, e.g., calorie counting, as "dysfunctional" comes across as judgmental and rude. Saying your relationship with calorie counting is dysfunctional/disordered is something different, and not what you said initially.
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I've seen some derogatory references to the "eat anything you want crowd" in a subforum but I don't participate in their discussions. The moderators wouldn't allow it and I wouldn't want to be rude either. IEers don't have a subforum, we label our threads IE and try to carve out our own little subforum this way. Perhaps you were not aware of this.
That is unacceptable of those who make such references, no matter the diet. No one should be referencing any diet method in a derogatory manner. I think some diets have legitimate health concerns, but it's important to raise those in a thoughtful and caring manner rather than insulting.
I was not aware IE did not have their own subforum. Is it something you can request? Anyway, I already explained that I hang out in Chicks in Control for a reason.
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That's what moderators are for.
If I stepped over the line in my explanations of how your posts read and my suggestions that you make more careful word choices in the future, then I hope a moderator will let me know and give me a second chance such that I can correct my behavior for the future.
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Never said it was.
Your second post in this thread contained the following:
"...all methods of controlling food intake such as calorie counting, food restriction or deprivation, weighing food, etc. In relation to an intuitive eater this is all dysfunctional."
So yes, to you my weighing of food and calorie counting is considered dysfunctional. This is what I take issue with. Even though you qualified it by saying from an IE perspective, that is still calling me, and other calorie counters, dysfunctional. This is no different, or less wrong, than calorie counters saying IE is just an excuse to eat whatever you want. Both statements are wrong.
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I appreciate that you are trying to understand what I mean and that I dont' take issue with other dieters, only discussing through the lense of IE the eating/dieting behaviors that exacerbate my ED. I too come upon posts where I think "that could have been phrased better" but would not presume to reword it.
You weren't clear that this was in relation to your ED, though. That was the entire point of the miscommunication. I had to "presume" to reword it in order to understand what you actually meant to say. Because you didn't initially type what you meant to say. There was no indication, initially, that your viewpoint was very specific to your own ED.
Your first posts in this thread were passing judgment. And as I read the thread, I saw some backlash to that. That's why I wanted a clarification, and wanted you to realize that you were unintentionally being very insulting to a large number of people who do find calorie counting/weighing of food to be a successful method for their weight loss.
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This is what you are accusing me of saying, I did not say this, here let me cut and paste exactly what I said "Secret eating is only one aspect of dysfunctional eating. Others would be guit and shame, justifying food "well I only ate a small breakfast so it's ok if I eat this donut now," self judging, and all methods of controlling food intake such as calorie counting, food restriction or deprivation, weighing food, etc. In relation to an intuitive eater this is all dysfunctional." I did not say across the board, I did not say calorie-counters are dysfunctional, I said that calorie counting is a dysfunctional way of eating in relation to being an intuitive eater. But whatever, we can argue semantics all day long, the point is that my awareness in myself has raised awareness of what's going on around me. I don't need to apologize to anyone about that, anymore than I have to apologize for wearing the color yellow.
No one has said you need to apologize for anything. Personally, I would like you to realize that your word choice, which you quoted exactly here, comes across as saying now that you see things from an IE perspective, you realize calorie counting is dysfunctional. When you were first challenged on this, instead of a knee-jerk defensive reaction it would have been helpful for you to clarify that you meant from the perspective of your eating disorder.
It's not simple semantics. Words mean things.
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There's nothing wrong with not liking a certain diet. I can respect anyone as a person, that does not mean I have to enjoy and like calorie counting -what a person puts into their mouth is none of my business.
I don't think anyone here has implied you need to like calorie counting. But referring to it as dysfunctional from an IE perspective, rather than dysfunctional to you in the context of your ED, is offensive and judgmental. You made a poor choice of words. We know what you mean now that we have talked it over.
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But living in a diet culture comes with a lot of consequences. It's considered very "cool" to talk about calories and protein ratios, it's considered cool to be a fitness fanatic. There are some societal dietary norms that are accepted. For example, in the past when I used to hear my friend criticize every bite of food or diet relentlessly I used to think it was awesome, wow how can she be so diligent while I'm such a failure? And now I realize that it's not really healthy to scrutinize and badger oneself over what we eat. It was something I used to think was necessary and now I don't. It's quite a drastic shift and I'm still coming to terms with it and so every situation that I can observe other eaters becomes fascinating to me.
I understand how this can be a very difficult social context from someone with an ED. I do hope as you continue down your path of IE you continue to overcome it and enjoy being an unbiased observer. I think it is important to stay unbiased, though, and not make mental notes of how disordered others appear.
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There's nothing good anorexia by the way. If I see someone and I think they are anorexic it's not because I'm judging them, it's because it's deeply concerning to see your old rommate who went from being thin and healthy to looking quite sick.
Of course there's nothing good about it. If she truly has an ED rather than a two week stomach bug, let's say, I hope you're able to nurture her and eventually help her into the recovery she needs. I do understand, though, that sometimes there is simply nothing someone else can do and it is up to the individual with the ED to want recovery for themselves.
To summarize, I do wish you success on your IE journey. I'm very glad it has enabled you to get into the psychology of your eating patterns and ED and I hope you continue to overcome it. Also, I am glad we have clarified what you actually meant by your initial posts.
There's nothing wrong with not liking a certain diet. I can respect anyone as a person, that does not mean I have to enjoy and like calorie counting - what a person puts into their mouth is none of my business.
Its important to practice what you preach. You can say that, but demonstrate otherwise.
GlamourGirl827 - I didn't get the sense that you were calling anyone a fat slob either. Since this is one of the several threads started on here, each for an aspect of IE, you discussed it and stated where you found the criticism.
I like IE. I've done some reading, I know people who personally follow it. However, just as it is with dieters, with lifestylers, with any group/community, I see what you mean - there are those who just say that they follow it and really use it as a blanket to give themselves an easy narcissistic pat on the back and garner attention. Its possible to do that and claim to be one thing, happens in all groups, so I can see why it is a criticism in the fitness community that it is used as a form of excuse - at least amongst some people within any group.
GlamourGirl827 - I didn't get the sense that you were calling anyone a fat slob either. Since this is one of the several threads started on here, each for an aspect of IE, you discussed it and stated where you found the criticism.
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Thank you. I think this runs far deeper than this thread. Wannybeskinny and I have bumped heads several times. The way I am, the way I view the world and communicate; I do not mix well with the kind of personality Wannab displays on this board. Even as simple as her complete inability to see why her OP was a bit rude, despite atmos explaining it quite well. Or that she has added words into my reply like by saying I called her a fat slob, when I obviously didn't. I could go into details, but I'm sure that would lead to this post being removed, if its not going to be already.
Some people live in a way that they only see their own opinions, experiences and point of view. And they cannot think beyond their own perspective. Trying to tell them they are wrong, or that other people feel differently is met with denial, twisting words and anger. I have this (wonderful or awful) talent at really rubbing people like that the wrong way, even more so in real life. I think I actually posted about this once in general chatter...
Anyway, this post was part of the reason I moved forward with doing what I need to do to count calories and focus on recovery. I no longer want to do IE. I was doing it so I was reading the IE thread. Also I have an issue with binging (in response to restricting) so I have been coming to this board on and off since I joined 3fc. Since it seems we have to now justify why we are on certain boards.
Although I feel like I'm being mischaracterized I think krampus and atmos you've made some valid points I need to consider. We have requested an ie sub forum but the moderators believe the forum is at capacity already so we thought we'd find our little corner here with IE disclaimers. It seems not so although I've made no secret of my eating disorder I think I will refrain from IE topics except in our one supportive and largely unharassed thread. It's been a difficult few days and I don't wish to argue with people who don't like me.
You know, Im noticing a really interesting thing going on with my husband. I have been of course preaching IE to him for years and he always tells me that he has no idea when he is hungry or full and he just eats to keep his blood sugar stable. He has low blood sugar issues. Anyway, recently he decided he wanted to lose weight and he started suddenly being more aware of his food, noticing the calories and the nutrition content and counting out portions for his food. Obviously not IE but today at dinner he ate his portioned chicken and his portioned corn chips and then he said " I think I didn't need to eat that last bit of chicken." I asked him why not and he said because he wasn't hungry anymore and he ate past the satisfaction point and into over fullness. So we talked a bit and he is starting to realize that he normally stuffs himself full of food way past the satisfaction point and eats when he isn't hungry quite often. Now that he is aware of what he is eating and the calories in it, he is suddenly becoming more in touch with his body. Ive never heard him say he is hungry or full in the 9 years we have been married until tonight. Maybe its because he is a guy who was never concerned with physical appearance or his weight until recently so he doesn't have all the baggage associated with being aware of calories. I don't know. But, its been interesting to watch and Im hopeful that over time he will continue to be even more aware of his hunger and satisfaction points.
Anyway, I have no life and the only other people I hang out with besides my husband are family and they are all naturally thin people who eat slowly, enjoy what they eat, and usually don't eat every last bite if they are not hungry anymore. So, at least I have some good examples of IE all around me.
Pixellate, I reckon she's disciplined also because she's doing competitions.
While she may come across as being a dysfunctional eater (eating very little daily, then binging during competitions twice a month), she's obviously doing something that's aligned with her goals.
You know, Im noticing a really interesting thing going on with my husband. I have been of course preaching IE to him for years and he always tells me that he has no idea when he is hungry or full and he just eats to keep his blood sugar stable. He has low blood sugar issues. Anyway, recently he decided he wanted to lose weight and he started suddenly being more aware of his food, noticing the calories and the nutrition content and counting out portions for his food. Obviously not IE but today at dinner he ate his portioned chicken and his portioned corn chips and then he said " I think I didn't need to eat that last bit of chicken." I asked him why not and he said because he wasn't hungry anymore and he ate past the satisfaction point and into over fullness. So we talked a bit and he is starting to realize that he normally stuffs himself full of food way past the satisfaction point and eats when he isn't hungry quite often. Now that he is aware of what he is eating and the calories in it, he is suddenly becoming more in touch with his body. Ive never heard him say he is hungry or full in the 9 years we have been married until tonight. Maybe its because he is a guy who was never concerned with physical appearance or his weight until recently so he doesn't have all the baggage associated with being aware of calories. I don't know. But, its been interesting to watch and Im hopeful that over time he will continue to be even more aware of his hunger and satisfaction points.
Anyway, I have no life and the only other people I hang out with besides my husband are family and they are all naturally thin people who eat slowly, enjoy what they eat, and usually don't eat every last bite if they are not hungry anymore. So, at least I have some good examples of IE all around me.
Men tend to not be bothered too much with calories etc, of course they generally have better metabolisms than we do, and don't have to face the extreme pressures of looking a certain way that we do. Those extreme pressures cause us to behave in bizarre ways. It's so typical to sit down at lunch with girls and the topic turns immediately to food, calories, exercise, dieting etc. It's normal behavior for someone to say "well I really shouldn't be eating a hamburger I'm so fat!" and culturally we all sort of speak that way. There are particular friends that are like this a lot and others that are more low key and relaxed. Some people feel the need to apologize to the universe when they eat a french fry - I've always done it and I'm learning to reexamine my behavior because it's harmful to me - I don't need that negative voice constantly judging me. I've spoken about this a lot with my nutritional therapist, she calls it the negative self-critic, that little voice that keeps telling me that I can't, that I don't deserve it, that I'm weak, that I'm fat, etc. Learning to calm that voice has been the biggest factor in whether I can listen to my body's hunger signals or not. The louder the self-critic voice, the more confusing my hunger signals are. The calmer the voice, the louder my body's hunger signals are. That's how my eating becomes dysfunctional in the long run. And when I hear other people's voices so loud and clear it becomes even more obvious - I wouldn't say it's triggering, it's more like finding that common ground and being aware that I'm not the only one who's got emotional eating issues, it kind of helps me from feeling like I'm completely crazy.
Because like you, I too have grown up with functional eaters, people who eat everything and stay slim and don't do strange things with their eating practices. My parents, my grandparents, my husband, my son, my BFF, even my extended family are all healthy functional eaters. I'm the black sheep. I've always been the one who's been trying to control my eating while they just eat. I'm the one who screams about calories, about carbs, about sugar, about exercise, about being in control! meanwhile they eat everything and calmly talk to me about moderation and they nod and smile but have never once gone along with any of my weight loss attempts. Nobody has ever ever given up eating anything they like just to support me and now I understand why - they don't need to.
Last edited by Palestrina; 05-09-2014 at 09:12 AM.
