Hi all,
I've tried to do calorie counting several times in the past few years and I'm up for trying again. I've been following a specific diet (vegan, very low fat) and I'm getting a little tired of the "holier than thou" attitude that I see from some people on this diet. I still want to be vegan and whole foods, but count calories rather than worry about the amount of fat I'm eating.

One thing that I've noticed in the daily caloric needs calculators that I've used to try and figure out how much I should be eating a day is that it varies greatly depending on what weight you start with. For example, when I tried it for the first time in 2009, my weight was 155 and the calculation of how many calories I would need to lose weight, according to one calculator, was 1300. Then I tried it again a year later when my weight had gone up to 175 and the calorie range was 1450. Now I am about 180 and the calorie range is again around 1450 (this is for "extreme fat loss")

So my question is, does it really only work if you cut calories more as you lose weight? I have this vision of being 5 pounds to my weight goal and having the calculators tell me to eat 1000 calories a day or something similarly horrific . I get that you need to cut calories to lose weight, but I also know that I couldn't survive on a diet that is so low in calories.

Thoughts?

Tam

You need to eat fewer calories than your Basal Metabolic Rate (how many calories you burn just by going about your day) plus the calories you burn exercising in order to lose weight. The heavier you are, the more calories you burn just moving around and stuff, so your BMR tends to drop as you lose weight, so you need to lower your calories. However, you could also just add in more exercise as you lose weight. Additionally, you can raise your BMR by building muscle. So if you are ONLY going to count calories and not exercise at all, you will need to continue to drop your calories, but only to a certain point. (At some point, your BMR is just not going to get much lower.) At least, this is how my doctors have explained it to me. Hope that helps and makes sense.

The less you weigh the less calories you need to maintain your weight. I started at 204 pounds and lost on about 1400 calories a day.

Thank you for the responses. AnonymouslyYours, what you say makes perfect sense and I feel like an idiot for not thinking about it that way. Just out of curiosity, I went to a few online calculators and calculated how many calories I would need if I were 10 pounds from my goal and the range was somewhere between 1200-1400. I do exercise (5 days a week, 50 minute brisk walking, sometimes 6 or 7 days, depending on that week, but at least 5) so I'm hoping that will help too!

Tam

tammay - the exercising will certainly help!

I could definitely be wrong as I am no expert, but I was under the assumption that you should try not to eat less calories than your BMR--that this was the number that your body needs just to be alive, even if you didn't move or get out of bed and that most people(assuming you do get out of bed and do things), burn another 500-600 (or more depending on weight and activity level) by walking around and doing daily activities(i.e. not specifically exercising); which is why maintenance is usually around 2,000 calories for a woman. For example, my BMR should be around 1500. So honestly eating anywhere less than 2,000 calories should mean at least some fat loss, albeit very gradual fat loss if it is not a large deficit. I've read 1,200 calories is considered quite low and the minimum that a woman should eat, and definitely not where someone should start out when beginning a weight loss plan.

I had thought that this is why you want to dip below maintenance level(as in a range of 1500-2000 calories per day using me as an example), but not below BMR to lose weight. I had read that dipping below BMR and still being quite active means you aren't giving your body enough energy to live and be active and it will stall out and feed on your muscle in addition to fat to try and maintain body fat.

This is something I am curious about too, so I would love others opinions. The above is what I had read and thought to be true.

Well, even if you start out at the calorie range currently suggested for your current weight/height/age, you'll still lose weight as you get closer to your goal, but at a slower pace. If you do not want to lose at a slower pace, then you would have to either cut your calories more or increase your activity.

I thought the maintenance level essentially IS your BMR. Your BMR is effectively the calories you need to consume to maintain your current weight (with extra factored in for activity).

To clarify, BMR is not what your body needs to live. It's the calories your body burns just being. Eat less than that, and you'll lose weight.

Nope, your maintenance level will always be higher than BMR, because, Basal Metabolic Rate (BMR) is only the number of calories your body burns at rest to maintain normal body functions. It is the amount of calories per day your body burns, regardless of exercise (or any conscious activity, even thinking).

You can sort of look at BMR as your coma metabolism. In human biology in college, we remembered it for our exam by remembering the "B" as also standing for "bed." Even digestion wasn't counted in BMR.

The professor said BMR is a bit misleading, because the body is never fully at rest. Just getting out of bed in the morning (perhaps even just being awake) starts adding calories burned on top of BMR. He compared it to "idling" on a car. The "gas" required just to have the engine running, without actually moving the vehicle.

So it's very possible to lose weight, at a calorie level above BMR. It just means that your calorie intake has to be lower than BMR + the calories burned in all non BMR activity - thinking, walking, eating, talking, doing work/chores (even sedentary ones like folding the laundry), and active exercise.

As to whether or not you can safely go below BMR, there is no consensus on the answer. Some say it causes BMR to drop. While it's known that BMR changes with age, weight, height, gender, diet and exercise habits, how it changes (especially for an individual) isn't as clear cut. Will your BMR drop if you are on a vlcd (very low calorie diet, one under 1000 calories)? How much will it drop? What other consequences will you experience? (hair loss is common).

However, it's not an established "fact" as much as an opinion. People who undergo most wls (except perhaps the gastric band) almost inevitably are eating (or at least digesting) at a calorie level below BMR. There are risks, which is one reason (though only one) why doctors so closely monitor wls patients.

You can't truly determine or even estimate your own BMR without fairly sophisticated testing. You can make a fair guess of it from the better calculators, but it's just a stab in the dark. A better guide (in my opinion) is how you're feeling. If you're feeling very hungry 24/7 (or conversely are experiencing periodic or constant nausea), if you're feeling fatigued or find activity difficult, if you experience dramatic hair loss... then you may try upping your calories and see if it helps (you may gain a pound or two before starting to lose again - but you may not, especially if eating a little more allows you to exercise a lot more).

It's still all trial and error. Some folks do not experience an energy drop even on vlcd's and starvation diets, somehow their bodies are better able to access fat stores for energy. Other people find that dropping below a certain level (which may be higher, lower, or equal to BMR) causes severe mood swings, debilitating fatigue, headaches, nausea, and even less weight loss...

If you're paying attention to how you're feeling, I don't think you have to be too worried about BMR, especially if you're seeing your doctor at least once or twice a year and having routine bloodwork drawn. If you want to go really low, say under 1200 or under 1000 calories, your doctor might want to see you more frequently, and you might experience hair loss, dry skin and other mostly mild side effects (there are some severe risks too, which is why you really should see a doctor before starting a drastic diet, even though most people don't, and most people don't experience severe or life-threatening complications).

I get that. That's why I said maintenace is the calories burned for existing (BMR), with extra added in for activity.

Ah, that wasn't clear when you said that you thought the maintenance level essentially IS your BMR. It seemed to me you were disagreeing with prior definitions of BMR not agreeing with them. My mistake.

Very interesting! Thanks for all this information...