[buckettgirl]

Originally Posted by Goddess Jessica

1. Using abuse as an example of common practice is ridiculous. It's like saying taking something away from a child is the same as neglect.

2. I don't use a bark collar and I agree that there are better ways to handle barking before moving to a bark collar. However, to state that there is no reasons to use shock collars as a method of determent is ignorant. Shock collars can be properly used in lots of situations. If the choice is between a shock collar or being put down at a shelter because neighbors call to complain of the barking, I am sure the dog would choose the shock collar. If the choice is between never seeing the sunlight or having a electric fence, I am sure the dog would choose a shock collar.

3. Shock collars can be more humane than many other choices of reprimand. Chock collars, prong collars can cause serious physical harm such as windpipe damage, especially if the dog is a constant puller, or bred for a high pain tolerance. Simply, as with any training device, whether or not it is used for purposes of cruelty is totally dependent upon the intentions and experience of the trainer.

Its not ignorance. I would never shock a dog (or probably anything else either, but I wouldn't have anything besides dogs, cats, birds, and hedgehogs). Dogs bark...it is natural and instinctual - I would NEVER punish them for that. There are ways change behavior with dogs as with humans. The Dog Whisperer is an excellent example of that. I also would never dish out a punishment that I wouldn't be willing to do to another human... Shock collars hurt! Barking (or whatever else) becomes associated with PAIN! Positive reinforcement is a much better choice and can work wonders for animals as with children. It's all about patience. Too many people who own animals either don't care, don't have the patience, or are ignorant in other effective ways...it is very sad.
An it harm none, do as ye will.... animals included.

[choices]

FaFabulous pup..! I want one!!..I've been thinking of it..but DH put the skids on anything else that isn't human around here...but if it were me, I'd have 5acres,and dogs..lots of them..they just always love you,no matterwhat! Good luck with all that follows..I found a great book in "Puppy Care"..for those beginning months..I also advise,(without my avice being asked,so pardon) that you crate train this pup...After all the dogs I've had, I followed this routine,crate training,and it's a huge benifit..for everybody..you,the dog,etc. take care..and keep in touch,(if your not too busy.)FOCUS!

[Sandi]

Thanks for all you AMAZING advice everyone. With a towel in place of the newspaper and the addition of a tick-tock clock and no radio, he is doing just great!! Last night I think he only wimpered for 5 or 10 minutes!!! And this morning when I put him back in crate so I could shower, he didn't wimper at all!!!

Now on to house-breaking him. He is doing well, but we watch him like a hawk!!

When I took him on his walk this morning (at 5:00 a.m.) he managed to get under my legs and trip me. Thank goodness he is Ok, I could have really hurt him. At 335, when I fall, I fall hard, so my leg is pretty banged up, but I'll live. I was trying to be soooo careful!

[Heather]

Sandi -- DO watch him like a hawk. Our dogs responded very well to the following if they tried to go in the house:

- a loud yell (to surprise them)
- pick them up and carry them outside
- praise them high and mighty for doing it outside (that should be a given!)

Last year... actually about 1 year ago exactly... I fell down the stairs carrying our puppy -- at 5 am. I managed not to hurt him, or our other dog, but I very badly hurt my coccyx (tailbone!).

I was at my high weight at the time, and that pain was part of what motivated me to lose weight. In hind (haha) sight, I am grateful that it happened, but it hurt so badly at the time...

[Goddess Jessica]

Originally Posted by buckettgirl

Positive reinforcement is a much better choice and can work wonders for animals as with children.

I agree that positive reinforcement is excellent in training. However, training's purpose is to establish the pack order - not just training our dogs to respond to commands.

Totally positive reinforcement works against a dog's natural instincts of belonging to a structured pack and trains a dog to respond to a command as if they were tricks. Just because you click your dog for carrying out a certain command and ignore unwanted behavior, does not instil in your dog his natural understanding of the pack structure.

For instance, let's take my lovely dogs for example. If I was doing totally positive reinforcement training, when I give Keiko a command he has a choice: do the command and receive love and adoration from me (or treats or clicks, depending on which training method I am using) or disobey the command and get ignore. In the absence of outside stimulus, he will probably choose to do the command. Ta-da! Great dog. However, I have never exerted my dominance. And well, who cares? In this situation, I've asked him to obey and he did it. Why do I care if I'm dominate or not?

Let's take the same training method and apply it to a stimulus situtation. With Keiko, he has a huge prey drive. In fact, part of the reason he was going to be put down at the shelter was his need to escape and kill little animals (mostly chickens and cats). This is a natural instinct in Keiko but in order for him to live in this world, he has to be controlled. In totally positive reinforcement, he has a choice: stay by my side or go for the cat. If he goes for the cat, I will ignore him but if you were Keiko, wouldn't you risk that for the satisfaction of killing prey? Heck yeah!

In negative reinforcement, I am placed as the dominate pack member. Think of it as the "Because Mom Says So" Effect. Keiko can not be asked to understand that if he kills a cat, the shelter will put him down. Instead, he has learned to understand that because I say so, he must obey or face negative reinforcement.

The term "negative reinforcement" has a bad rap. I do not mean being cruel or base your training on fear. ALL training should include positive reinforcement, and this should be used a lot more than negative reinforcement. However if the dog is to understand the difference between right and wrong in the pack, he should be immediately corrected for the wrong behavior and praised lavishly for acceptable behaviour.

Originally Posted by buckettgirl

Too many people who own animals either don't care, don't have the patience, or are ignorant in other effective ways...it is very sad.

Ignorance is the worst part. I wouldn't say that owners don't care as much as they just don't understand their dog. Effective training makes shelter dogs into loved pets. It's so unbelievably sad to know that dogs are put down everyday because they did not "obey" commands that they don't understand. Working in a shelter, I saw so many dogs that people dumped because they were simply "uncontrollable." With a little training, they became great dogs.