I was an adult probation officer, and contrary to what people might expect, I liked most of the folks I worked with. They were moslty surprisingly normal people who made a single or a lifetime of bad choices. There's often no way to tell on the outside, whether the person was one-time stupid, or chronically stupid, but there are clues (and the clues here, tend to point towards chronically stupid).
Assuming he's telling the truth, and all of the offenses are non-violent, it'as actually a worse sign (to me) because in most, if not all states, to be thrown into prison for failure to pay child support you've got to be negligent for YEARS before it would reach the incarceration point.
By the way, there's a big distinction between jail (incarceration in a local jail, run by the sheriff's department generally for no more than a year and a day) and prison (tends to be longer than a year, but can be as little as a few months, offenses are more severe).
Personally, I've never seen anyone sent to prison for child support. Jail, yes, but not prison. I'm not saying it can't happen, I know it can - it just makes me really suspicious that there is more to the offense than he is saying.
When I was in my 20's, I once placed a penpal ad in a penpal magazine (luckily to a PO Box). It was a lady's crochet magazine and it never dawned on me that it would be a popular magazine in prisons - but prisoners are desperate for outside world contact. I got so many prison letters (and the return address wouldn't even hint that it was from a prison, so if I hadn't been tipped off by the writer, I would never have known - and some guys didn't say they were in prison, I only recognized the address on the letter from someone else admitting they were in prison). I never answered any of the prison letters, but I can tell you that not one of the dozens I received admitted to being incarcerated for a violent offense.
I'm not sure your friend is going to listen to anything you say. Ideally, she would go to her local sheriff's department, express her concern about a guy she's wanting to date (NOT telling them he's already in prison) and asking if they would do a background check for her (she may have to pay a fee, usually around $20, possibly more, but a good investment, nonetheless).
My husband was in HR in a field that attracted folks desperate for a job. He has a saying "trust, but verify." Many folks fear that verifying information proves that you don't "trust" the person, so they don't want to do any checking because it "proves" they mistrust the person. That's just silly reasoning, the fact is that liars aren't really very successful if they can't convince you they are telling the truth. As a result, you have no way to tell if anyone is lying, except through verification.
If I were her, I would ask him for contact information to speak with his ex-wife to get her side of the story (allthough I'd that with any divorced man I was wanting to date, even without a criminal record - and I'd always do a background check on anyone I dated).
To be honest, all of the work it would take to screen an incarcerated man, I'm not sure it would be worth the effort to me, but I'm afraid your friend may not be willing to hear much of this.
I met my husband through a personal ad I placed, and I went in suspicious, assuming that everything he said was colored by his desire to make a romantic connection. I did have a background check done, both in WI and in IL (not even a traffic ticket). It's an easy enough precaution to take, that I think everyone should do it. You've also got to assume that for every conviction, there were five to ten times as many times he was lucky and just didn't get caught.
I'm not sure your friend is willing to be smart about this, but you can be. If she won't do the background checks, I'd suggest that you do. I'm assuming that as your friend, you will have contact with them as a couple. If she isn't willing to protect herself, there's no reason that you shouldn't.
If she wants to know if he's telling the truth about his incarceration, all she needs to do is log on to her state's bureau of prisons website, find the inmate search page, and type in her beau's name. It will tell her exactly what crime (or crimes) he was convicted of and how long the sentence is for each.
I've long wondered about the motivation of women who have relationships with men in jail.
As long as he's in jail, it's a safe relationship and a romantic fantasy. But what happens when he gets out and reality replaces the fantasy? Most of these folks are con artists and master manipulators.
If they do get together, then you have the whole guilt by association issue. My oldest son is a State Trooper and SWAT Team member. You could be the Virgin Mary, but if you're hanging out with a known idiot, they'll be watching you.
I'm not sure your friend is willing to be smart about this, but you can be. If she won't do the background checks, I'd suggest that you do. I'm assuming that as your friend, you will have contact with them as a couple. If she isn't willing to protect herself, there's no reason that you shouldn't.
I 100% agree with everything kaplods said. I also must say my worst fear about this situation would be that the guy is actually in there for domestic violence, and if you don't check it out, your girlfriend (and you) won't know the truth about him until she's in the hospital or dead. I don't happen to think that it's a friend's job to simply "support" when the friend is headed for a (potential) wrong turn.
I would say to be cautious and let his actions speak and not pay too much attention to his words. If he really is changing he won't have to tell her she'll see it when he mentions a letter from his son or how he's taking his daughter for ice cream. If she sees evidence that's a good indicator. If it's just a bunch hot air well...it's not worth much.
As others have said I would not go into a relationship expecting a man to change for the better - I pretty much assume I'm getting him on his best behavior when we first date.
my boyfriend is in jail but we didnt meet while he was in and if it was something that involved neglecting his kids i wouldnt even be friends with him....that to me makes him an awful person if he isn't willing to support his kids
I have to admit also, personally I would tell anyone who owed child support - that I wouldn't date him until he was paid up in full and had a receipt from the courts and his ex-wife to prove it - and if the kids are minors that he has an automatic withdrawal set up for the future payments.
It drives me absolutely nuts when people ignore a person's record of treating others badly and then are shocked and surprised when the person treats them badly. Things like
a man who cheated on his wife, and the new girlfriend (who maybe was even the one he was cheating with) is shocked and offended when he later cheats on her.
A man who doesn't pay for his kids, and then with a new woman doesn't pay his share of the rent, and only spends money on himself.
There is no "just didn't pay child support," about it. You do not get thrown in prison for being a couple weeks late on your child support (though many guys who've gone to jail, prison, or probation because of it, are pretty convinced and sometimes even convincing that that is exactly what happened to them).
I think that "he seems like such a nice guy" trips many women up. They think that if he's so "nice" it must have all been some kind of mixup, or it would be wrong not to give him another chance..... but this isn't about giving anyone chances. You want to give him a second chance, be his friend who goes out for coffee with him once in a while, not his girlfriend.
Past behavior really does reflect character, and character is pretty difficult to dramatically change. No woman is obligated to date every man who seems "nice," or who is fun to talk to, regardless of his history. The chances are if he neglects important things like taking care of his children, he's going to neglect a lot of important things (even if she doesn't want to have kids). So with her, he might not neglect their kids, because there are none, he might neglect paying the rent or the electric bill. Besides, if he continues to neglect his kids during their relationship, she becomes an accessory to that crime (if not legally, then morally). In many states, if they would marry, her wages could be garnished as well as his. If he isn't working (and it can be difficult to find a good job out of prison), she could be supporting his children.
And even if he treats her well, is she really selfish enough to be willing to be with a guy who treats her well, but is ignoring his children (no matter what the reason he gives - he's not sure he's "really" their dad - the ex "tricked" him into having kids.... I've heard them all).
I don't know about all states, but in California, if you owe child support, they can file a lien on you. Something to consider before you get financially entwined with anyone, particularly home ownership.
It drives me absolutely nuts when people ignore a person's record of treating others badly and then are shocked and surprised when the person treats them badly. Things like
a man who cheated on his wife, and the new girlfriend (who maybe was even the one he was cheating with) is shocked and offended when he later cheats on her.
A man who doesn't pay for his kids, and then with a new woman doesn't pay his share of the rent, and only spends money on himself.
There is no "just didn't pay child support," about it. You do not get thrown in prison for being a couple weeks late on your child support (though many guys who've gone to jail, prison, or probation because of it, are pretty convinced and sometimes even convincing that that is exactly what happened to them).
I think that "he seems like such a nice guy" trips many women up. They think that if he's so "nice" it must have all been some kind of mixup, or it would be wrong not to give him another chance..... but this isn't about giving anyone chances. You want to give him a second chance, be his friend who goes out for coffee with him once in a while, not his girlfriend.
Past behavior really does reflect character, and character is pretty difficult to dramatically change. No woman is obligated to date every man who seems "nice," or who is fun to talk to, regardless of his history. The chances are if he neglects important things like taking care of his children, he's going to neglect a lot of important things (even if she doesn't want to have kids). So with her, he might not neglect their kids, because there are none, he might neglect paying the rent or the electric bill. Besides, if he continues to neglect his kids during their relationship, she becomes an accessory to that crime (if not legally, then morally). In many states, if they would marry, her wages could be garnished as well as his. If he isn't working (and it can be difficult to find a good job out of prison), she could be supporting his children.
And even if he treats her well, is she really selfish enough to be willing to be with a guy who treats her well, but is ignoring his children (no matter what the reason he gives - he's not sure he's "really" their dad - the ex "tricked" him into having kids.... I've heard them all).
THANK YOU, especially for the bolded.
I know women who need to have this post stuck on their fridge!!
I agree. If he won't be supportive of his kids, why would be supportive of Carrie? But he tells her all he wants to do is make amends to them. Truth or Crap? I don't know. I beleive everyone deserves a second chance, but he's got to prove himself worthy.
I can't stop her, but I know I should support her. SIGH . . .
Being a good friend does not mean you have to support a bad decision against your better judgement. If you think she's making a mistake, please tell her, honestly and in a non-judgemental way, exactly what you feel, while making it clear that it won't end your friendship or damage your loyalty to her. Friends don't let friends walk into situations like that naively.
I believe in 2nd chances. However, I think I would prefer him further down his path of good choices before I gave him the 2nd chance myself.
Ding ding! My thoughts exactly right there. Many times inmates write to multiple women at a time, looking for a place to go once they get out. I would tell her to be very very VERY careful. He should be out on his own and doing things right before he attempts to bring anyone else into his life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kaplods
Past behavior really does reflect character, and character is pretty difficult to dramatically change.
This is so, so, very true. Unfortunatly, I learned it the hard way. My ex fiance is a Felon. He didnt do any prison time and he was honest about it from the beginning. I read all the court documents, checked him out etc.. He was a federal corrections officer and dated an inmate after she was released from prison, but not from a half-way house, while still under their custody. They had sex, as is the course of most serious relationships, and got busted. He was still on probation when I met him, and says they made an example out of him, and he did confess when caught. I could "see" that.
My fiance seemed like a very nice guy. I think people deserve second chances, depending on the circumstances. What I DIDN'T think about...was this:
Why would someone chance their whole life and career like that? He KNEW it was inappropriate when it started, and definitly could have waited to have sex another week or whatever. What on earth would make someone take risks like that with their life and means of life?
Had I thought about that earlier, things might have been different. Hindsight is always 20/20 though. Turns out he risked our entire relationship on internet sex and cheating, simply because he felt he needed more attention to boost his ego. He's a risk taker w/ the important things, impulsive, and quite a few other things. All these showed in his record. I just didn't look.
Hindsight smacks a lot of us in relationships. As "smart" as I was about choosing husband, I did choose to ignore some of his bad choices, and they have come back to bite me in the butt, and I still think I made a pretty good choice with him (it's just that all of the "little things" that annoyed me when we were dating, really royally, tick me off now that we're married and I'm having to live with them). Every little thing you choose to ignore, comes back tenfold, so if you ignore anything significant, you end up with quite a doozy of a problem.
If he's "a little messy" when you meet him, he's going to be a slovenly pig when you marry him. "Protective," quickly becomes overprotective, and "generous," can become "irresponsible with money."
Working in counseling, I knew all of this and it still happened to me. All of the things that are trouble spots in our marriage, were all foreshadowed in our dating, all things I should have seen coming. I even knew going in the magnification effect, that anything I found annoying when dating, would become intensely irritating the longer I lived with it.
I don't think hubby and I are in danger of divorcing, as there are more positives than negatives in the relationship, but I still feel that I entered the relationship very naively. It's one thing to know that part of what made my husband so appealing and exciting, can also make him maddenly irritating. I love that he is generous with me and with others, and yet I hate that he doesn't value money enough to be more responsible with it. He's not spending our money on crazy things, but even talking about budgeting stresses him out, which stresses me out.
You've really got to imagine all of a person's visible flaws magnified by a power of ten - and if you're ok with THAT, maybe you've got a chance, but if you think "this is as bad as it could get" or heaven forbid "it will get better," yikes you're in for one rude awakening.
When dating, whether intentionally or unconsciously, we put our best foot forward. We hide, or at least downplay our faults, because we want the other person to "like us." You never know whether the person is hiding big faults or little faults until you spend time with him or her, but if there are signs of a pretty big fault - it's probably bigger (and much bigger), not smaller than it appears.
I saw a show on MSNBC once about women who become pen pals to prisoners. They eventually go and meet the guy and some women even married them knowing that the guy would never be released. Crazy stuff.
Many Many Many years ago, before I met my husband, I was engaged to a guy who made a very very bad choice, and ended up in prison. I loved this guy with my whole heart and I would have stood by him, and did for almost 2 years. Unfortunately, he passed away and we were never able to get married. But, I would not have started to date a prisioner, had I not known him before, we would never have dated.
