I've noticed far more women putting down other women because of their appearance. I don't know who does it more, but women are certainly more often the targets.
As for "real men this" and "real women that", it doesn't just assume everyone is straight, it assumes that everyone wants to and is able to conform to a very rigid ideal of binary gender. I'm cisgender (opposite of transgender, if you haven't heard the term) and binary, and I still find it very troubling to be told to be a "real woman". For my friends who are non-binary/genderqueer, it's offensive and distressing.
I've noticed far more women putting down other women because of their appearance. I don't know who does it more, but women are certainly more often the targets.
As for "real men this" and "real women that", it doesn't just assume everyone is straight, it assumes that everyone wants to and is able to conform to a very rigid ideal of binary gender. I'm cisgender (opposite of transgender, if you haven't heard the term) and binary, and I still find it very troubling to be told to be a "real woman". For my friends who are non-binary/genderqueer, it's offensive and distressing.
I really appreciate this! I'm nonbinary actually, and it feels pretty weird to not really have a place. There isn't really any education being done with it, so most people don't even realize that there is more than one gender, and don't even get me started on sexualities!
This thread is all over the place! Haha....
My thought is that acceptance means you are worthy of approval.
I would think that most people who are trying to lose weight don't approve of their fat.
I think you can accept and love yourself, without loving your fat.
Does that make sense??
I don't understand what sexually preference or gender has to do with being fat.
Haha. The only thing I do understand is that a man (anatomically speaking) and women (anatomically speaking) are different. As in their bodies work different. They have different hormones and levels of hormones. They may lose and gain weight differently, or carry weight differently. BUT....fat is fat.
I don't understand what sexually preference or gender has to do with being fat.
Haha. The only thing I do understand is that a man (anatomically speaking) and women (anatomically speaking) are different. As in their bodies work different. They have different hormones and levels of hormones. They may lose and gain weight differently, or carry weight differently. BUT....fat is fat.
To build on the idea of males and females being different, I want to add that each individual is different than every other individual. Regardless of gender identification and sex -- Some bodies are inclined to gain weight quickly, others slowly, others have a hard time gaining weight at all. I think that is important to remember when working on our own health, and when judging the health of others -- all bodies act differently to food, action, hormones and everything in between.
Regardless, everyone deserves happiness and no one deserves to be fat-shamed, thin-shamed, or shamed for their gender, sex, sexual preference, religion, or anything else.
Last edited by seize the day; 04-17-2015 at 03:25 PM.
I don't understand what sexually preference or gender has to do with being fat.
Haha. The only thing I do understand is that a man (anatomically speaking) and women (anatomically speaking) are different. As in their bodies work different. They have different hormones and levels of hormones. They may lose and gain weight differently, or carry weight differently. BUT....fat is fat.
Good question! First of all, yes, there is definitely a hormonal difference that affects weight. But I was mainly talking about how this works socially. If losing weight were as simple as "eat less, move more" and no one had any trouble doing that, if it were as easy as guaranteeing that 2 + 2 = 4, then none of us would need to be on this forum, and we could all stay at our preferred weights naturally. But it isn't, it's massively complex, and gender is an important part of that, as is sexuality.
Look at a statement like "Real men prefer women with curves". The most obvious point is that it's telling women that their main value lies in whether or not they are attractive to men. There's a similarity to the cliche "all the right curves in all the right places": what if you don't happen to be built that way, for instance if you are naturally small-breasted? (Come to that, what if you have cancer and need a mastectomy? Many women report feeling "less of a woman" in that situation, sadly.)
It also states that "real men" are attracted to women, thus implying very heavily that gay men are not "real" men. Which is total nonsense, of course. Similarly, women who aren't interested in whether or not they are attractive to men, either because they're gay or because they're not interested in relationships full stop (e.g. asexual and aromantic), are very much excluded by this statement, just as they are excluded by the more common messages that women need to be thin if they want to attract a man. As far as I know, there is less pressure to be thin in the lesbian community, probably because of a long history of resisting a society telling us that we have to appear in a certain way in order to attract men. This isn't to say that there's never any pressure to look a particular way, but there does seem seem to be less of the usual "you must be thin". Gay men, on the other hand, seem to be under more pressure than straight men, as far as I can tell. (Bi folk never really have a place in this sort of thing, and it probably depends on which sort of community we hang out in.)
Of the women here who are straight or bi, some find that wanting to look good for a man helps motivate them, and others find that it's only when they stop worrying about what men think that they can really start to love their body and settle more comfortably into weight loss. For me, it was actually stopping worrying about what my mother thought that was more liberating. While this is all rooted in patriarchy, often women are the ones criticising other women more than men are. But I am definitely happier with a partner who thinks I am unbelievably beautiful no matter what my weight is, as I do with him, than I was with a partner who told me that he was less attracted to me when I was overweight.
We're also under pressure to be a certain shape so that we can fit into certain clothing in order to look attractive to men. It is almost universally assumed in many countries that women will lose a substantial amount of weight in order to look "perfect" in their wedding dress. Again, I'm sure there are some people for whom this is just a good way to stop procrastinating and get started on weight loss, but there are many more who find that this puts them under huge stress, making their relationship more tense, and if the weight loss is (at least temporarily) successful, may result in their partner marrying a woman who looks nothing like the woman he fell in love with, which can be disconcerting for him! I've yet to hear of a wedding between two women where anyone put herself through that. The women I know who've married other women all looked lovely and happy in their wedding photos despite not having changed their shape for the day, or worn traditional wedding dresses.
I've seen a lot of women on this forum feel that they can't start dating until they are down to a specific weight, as if it were unthinkable for a man to love someone fat. I find that really sad. Not to mention that it's something that could go on forever, you can always find something else about your body or your self which you dislike. But they are definitely getting that message from our society. How often do you see fat women as the romantic lead in films? And how often do we see larger women being mocked for daring to look sexy? Similarly, there are women who feel that they can't go on a beach holiday unless they are below a certain weight and thus "allowed" to wear a bikini.
As for gender identity, as I've said, I'm cisgender and I still find it really problematic to be told I have to be a "real woman". I don't wear heels or make-up or shave my legs (originally due to disability, but by now I wouldn't want to be doing that every day anyway), I don't like conforming to gender stereotypes, and I have to come to terms with what I think of my body the same as everyone else. What makes you feel happy, what makes you feel confident and sexy, is often very much bound up in gender norms.
For people who are transgender, it gets a lot more complicated. Trans women *really* have to worry about whether people will think they are a "real" woman, and are at massively increased risk of violence. For people who are at the earlier stage of coming out to themselves as trans - while some people figure it out in early childhood, not everyone does, it can take decades - all the pressure to be a certain way with their gender is massively stressful and often very confusing. While the trans people I know are all shapes and sizes, I've heard that some pre-transition trans folk end up becoming very overweight, because then at least they can't see the genitals which are the wrong set for them, but I don't know how common that is. I do know that if you are FTM (female to male) and binding your chest prior to chest surgery, the bigger your chest is, the harder and more uncomfortable this can be, so that's a practical consideration.
It can get especially complicated if they realise that they are non-binary, also known as genderqueer. This means that they are not entirely a man or a woman, they are somewhere in the middle. Yet society keeps telling them that they should be one thing or another, be shaped a certain way, dress a certain way, behave a certain way. It's amazing how much our society locates people's value in how far they fit into gender norms, including those for body shape.
It's just as bad for men but we don't get the privilege of having it vocalized.
Women think it. Men think it.
Fat guys are just not taken seriously. Personally, romantically or professionally.
And in some cases, worse. When I was in graduate school (Psychology), about 20 years ago, the research at the time, indicated that very obese women faired worst professionally (even more than fat men), but very obese men faired the worst romantically and personally (relationships, depression, self-isolation.... even suicide rates).
In terms of most measures of life satisfaction, fat men faired the worst.
And your right about men not having the "priviledge" to talk about it, especially with women, because the studies found that both thin and fat women believed that men (fat or otherwise) had the advantage over women romantically and personally. And, by the reaction in class when the topic was discussed, even when presented with the evidence, many women (most in my class) were unlikely to believe it.
Not only do fat men get a raw deal, they can't talk about it, and people (female at least) don't believe them if they do.
Now, add on the fact that there's a good deal of evidence that many of the health risks (especially those causing death) of obesity are much worse for men (at least until women reach menopause, then the difference between genders shrinks).
Men DO have the privilege to talk about it. They CAN talk about it if they want to. They themselves perpetuate the macho thought that they can't talk about it when in truth there is only one way to change it.
