Not everyone is going to agree with what body type is attractive any more than a person can help which gender they're sexually attracted to. Human brains are programmed. The world is not one big ball of people sharing the same exact opinions on what is considered attractive and it never will be. Much like religion and politics.
The reason I say this is because people claim FA is about themselves but really it comes off as demanding FA from others. And before you tell me I'm wrong then come up with a solid explanation as to why this always turns into a nasty debate with other people. If this was truly about ones self then you (general you) wouldn't bother stating your case with other people about how real women have curves.
This post I'm sure will piss people off but I just tell it like it is.
Not everyone is going to agree with what body type is attractive any more than a person can help which gender they're sexually attracted to. Human brains are programmed. The world is not one big ball of people sharing the same exact opinions on what is considered attractive and it never will be. Much like religion and politics.
The reason I say this is because people claim FA is about themselves but really it comes off as demanding FA from others. And before you tell me I'm wrong then come up with a solid explanation as to why this always turns into a nasty debate with other people. If this was truly about ones self then you (general you) wouldn't bother stating your case with other people about how real women have curves.
This post I'm sure will piss people off but I just tell it like it is.
It's very rare that I see people demanding that others find them attractive. Rather the demand is more along the lines that if people find them (or us) unattractive, they should keep it to themselves. Meaning that if I am making a post about how I love myself and find myself beautiful.. they really have no reason to come in and try and knock me down a peg. That's just rude and should be seen for what it is, a jerk move, rather that the person being heralded as bestowing some truth.
It's also more that it shouldn't be socially acceptable to shame and ridicule (which is where the respect bit I mentioned in my first post comes in). It's not socially acceptable to post a picture up of a gal with an eating disorder like anorexia, and then laugh at her for it. It shouldn't be acceptable to take pictures of overweight people randomly going about their day and display it for the world to laugh at. However it is, and that's why those types of pictures are so common on websites, it's still socially acceptable. The voices that decry the images are still a very small minority in comparison to those that go "it's just a joke, if the person was bothered by it they'd lose weight!"
I don't agree, nor do I condone, messages like "real women" anything.. or "real men" anything.. and the people I associate with don't either. Skinny shaming is also something that doesn't happen within my circle of friends, and if it happens the person doing it is immediately corrected and informed of just how wrong it is.
Now that isn't to say that there aren't some women/men out there that are demanding others find them attractive, however those tend to either be extremists, or just plain jerks... or a little of both. They don't represent the majority in the movement itself. They are, however, picked up more by the media.. because the media just loves to sell controversy, and there's no better way to get clicks/views than presenting a controversial opinion that will get people up in arms.
If this was truly about ones self then you (general you) wouldn't bother stating your case with other people about how real women have curves.
I don't agree that people should say that real women have curves. However, we do live in a world that has a lopsided view of what beauty should be. I just got a phone call this morning from a friend who lives in LA and she was in tears. Quick background, she's a young lady in her early 30s who's thin (size 2), she's quite pretty and single. She was very upset because she says she's gained a few pounds and her parents made her feel really bad about it when they went to visit her and told her that the clothes she was wearing didn't her flatter her new heavier body. She didn't feel very good about herself after that which caused her to think about how her weight was making her life worse. She's been doing some online dating and has been very discouraged by some of the demands she feels that men are making about women's profile photos and even pointed out a guy that said to her that "when women only show a headshot it means they have a weight problem."
Of course nobody can make us feel bad about our body without our permission. But those of us who are larger than the ideal beauty have a lot stacked against us. We're constantly reminded of what we should look like, by the magazines and tv and all media, by all our dieting buddies and the constant scrutiny we face. Although it's not accurate to say that "real women have curves" it's merely a way of proclaiming "I exist too!! I may not look like the ideal beauty but I have my own beauty!"
It's hard to validate one's self without stepping on other's toes. But my toes are well stomped on in my day to day life by way of being ignored or judged or passed up.
Another reason why I dislike "real women have curves", as well as the thin-shaming: "real women" is pretty problematic. For starters, not everyone fits into a binary gender system, and even cis people are often uncomfortable with the gender stereotypes they are expected to inhabit.
Also all humans have curves of one sort or another! Men have lovely curves too!
I think my issue is less about people having different aesthetic preferences (which yeah, can vary quite a bit), but about people trying to make their distaste for a certain aesthetic about HEALTH. Like, I would have no problem with people who were a little or a lot heavier, it's just SO UNHEALTHY.
When you look at the actual data, people who meet the media's modern beauty aesthetic (at a low normal BMI) are, statistically, more likely to die as a group than people who are more average (a BMI of 26.5...in the "overweight" category...is the mean for females in the US). And if there was really a concern about health, suggesting weight loss wouldn't be the answer anyway, because a weight loss of 15% or more once you've reached a high weight is more dangerous to your longevity than maintaining an obese weight for the rest of your life.
It may be true that people with a morbidly obese BMI are at higher health risk than others, but for the most part, the evidence is saying that losing weight doesn't actually change that.
Also the damage to your mental health from the miserable type of dieting is likely to be doing you a lot more harm than being happily overweight. Stress is really bad for you. Miserable dieting can also do bad things to your relationships and social life, and that has an impact on your health and life expectancy too. This is why I think it's so important to find a way of eating that you can sustain happily.
Random note: some of us are going to be unhealthy no matter what we do due to disability/chronic illness. It'd be nice if folks could remember that comments like, "Ick, she looks so unhealthy!" or "no one is attracted to people who look unhealthy" can be rather distressing for us. Yes, I'm ill, I tend to look ill (starting with being pale, and when I'm really exhausted my lips turn blue), my life expectancy is not good, and right now I'm a smidgen overweight, but I think I look very nice, and my partner thinks I am the hottest thing ever.
I find that the FA movement can be rather pushy, and even rude towards people who are choosing to lose weight, with some dodgy medical claims. But generally I think it's doing good things, and I am all in favour of people being happy in themselves and thinking they look good.
And if there was really a concern about health, suggesting weight loss wouldn't be the answer anyway, because a weight loss of 15% or more once you've reached a high weight is more dangerous to your longevity than maintaining an obese weight for the rest of your life.
It may be true that people with a morbidly obese BMI are at higher health risk than others, but for the most part, the evidence is saying that losing weight doesn't actually change that.
Do you have a link to this study, article or data? This just doesn't sound right?
In this multi-ethnic national cohort of men and women, weight loss of 15% or more was associated with an increased risk of death from all causes among overweight men and among women regardless of maximum BMI. Weight loss of 15% or more also was associated with an increased risk of death from noncardiovascular diseases among overweight and obese men and from both cardiovascular and noncardiovascular diseases among obese women. Moderate weight loss (5–<15%) was associated with increased risk of death from all causes and from cardiovascular diseases among overweight women. Moderate weight loss reduced risk of death from cardiovascular diseases among obese men. Results from subanalyses of never or former smokers, respondents in excellent, very good, or good health, and respondents with no chronic conditions generally were consistent with those obtained from the primary analyses.
And I say this as someone who has clearly crossed the line of having lost so much that, statistically, I am more likely to die than I was before. I don't like it, it doesn't sit right with me, but the meta-analysis of the data shows that losing over 15% of your weight makes your risk of death from all causes higher than maintaining your highest weight.
Medical advice to lose weight is basically based on two things...an observed correlation between obesity and reduced longevity, diabetes, heart disease, etc, and a fundamental precept that if obese people lose weight, they will become similar to the never-obese in their risk for those things. The first part is undeniable - science shows us again and again the negative health outcomes that obesity is associated with. But that second precept is EXTREMELY dicey, evidence-wise. And there's a lot of research coming out to indicate that the post-obese (people who were once obese, and have lost weight) are VERY different metabolically and health-wise from the never-obese. You can take the risk factor of high weight away, but it doesn't seem to take away the actual risk.
We get into this sort of issue all the time when interpreting correlations to make medical recommendations. For another example, take use of cholesterol lowering medications/statins. We know that high cholesterol is a risk factor for heart attack and stroke. So we put people on medication to lower their cholesterol, even if they do not have existing heart disease and have not had any cardiac events...and their cholesterol DOES go down. But their risk of heart attack and stroke are barely changed at all, and their risk of dying stays the same (http://www.thennt.com/nnt/statins-fo...heart-disease/) So does it make sense to recommend they reduce the risk factor (cholesterol) if it doesn't change the actual risk, particularly given that statins actually increase some other health risks, including the risk to develop diabetes?
Last edited by mandalinn82; 04-02-2015 at 04:55 PM.
I have read those studies and used to believe them. But after observing weight loss communities and people who I know personally that have lost weight I no longer believe them. My reasoning is that I don't know of many deaths from weight loss. I mean, when you think about it, how many in this particular community have died? From my experience there are less deaths here than with the fat acceptance community. I was a member of one of some of the online fat acceptance communities and there was a death about every 1 or 2 months on a forum this size. So I came to the conclusion that the obese people that try to be healthier and lose weight are actually living longer. Unless someone has some sort of explanation as to why there are less deaths here of course.
As having been a member of the fat acceptance community for a few years I have noticed some bad things about it. It should be about having a positive body image, but it's not. It's more like women of a super obese BMI and their expected to be skinny male admirers. My experience was this:
At first I gained more self confidence knowing that I could be fat and good looking. And I understood this because I've never really thought of fat people as ugly. But because I wasn't watching what I was eating as much and caring about calories I gained weight. I gained about 50lbs and started experiencing problems. I was getting back pain and troubles with incontinence that were worsening. My blood pressure was also getting high. And then I thought about their health at every size crap and realised it wasn't true. As I gained weight, it didn't matter how healthy I ate, my body just couldn't handle being at almost 300lbs. So I mentioned that I wanted to lose weight because I was having health issues. This was met with hostility and I lost all friends I had made. I also talked about wanting to eat healthier but mentioned wanting to cut down on the junk food. This was also met with hostility. The people in the fat acceptance communities are against weight loss, they also have their own definition of healthy eating, which seems to be 'get in the recommended daily serves of fruit and vegetables but don't worry about quantity and add in junkfood.' I remember a woman saying that anyone that didn't snack on an entire packet of biscuits a day was anorexic. She claimed to be into healthy eating. I also remember a woman posting pictures of all her night time meals and they were doing things like eating 3 plates worth of food. Then there was the world's fattest woman who was part of the community and she said that she wanted to lose weight. Even though she was over 700lbs they expected her to stay at that same weight for the sake of fat acceptance (I really think that is wrong). Then there was the shaming of thin women. They called them all anorexic. They said that a woman with a healthy BMI had to be anorexic and deliberately starving themselves.
In many ways I think the fat acceptance communities are exactly the same as pro anorexia. They are both two very similar extremes.
Such great posts on this thread! I agree one hundred percent that what anyone eats or how much they weigh is no one's business but their own.
I've just been reading Gina Kolata's Rethinking Thin. She sites study after study going back a hundred years, that show no matter what kind of diet we use, we will almost all regain. She talks about research done over decades by the University of Pennsylvania that proved obese people have no more psychological problems than thin people. Thin people are just as likely to have low-self esteem, eat under stress, eat at night, binge, and comfort themselves with food as obese people.
Studies done with children who were adopted, demonstrated that the children were fat if their biological parents were fat. No matter how thin, active and veggie eating their adoptive parents were that "good example," was meaningless against genetics.
I really like Michelle Obama but I think her work against childhood obesity, well intended though it is, is probably just likely to make the chubby children in the schools she visits feel even more stigmatized. They will sit in assembly and think, even the president's wife seems to find them unacceptable as they are. Of course it's good for schools to offer healthy lunches and sports for the students, but trying to get little children to diet when we adults find it so grueling seems downright cruel to me. Particularly when there is every reason to believe that the weight will come right back.
I feel like we have to start accepting ourselves and each other because we aren't really going to change anytime soon.
My final rant to random friends and strangers -- Quit telling me you're only concerned with my health! When you have a "cure," for what you consider my health problem, call me, until then just go work on your own issues.
Michelle Obamas initiative is a good one IMO. I've worked in schools in Harlem for 13 yrs and I can tell you genetics don't stand a chance under some of the conditions these kids endure. We're talking nearly no exposure to physical activity except once a week, school lunches that are unappetizing and an overwhelming prevalence of junk food. If genetics plays a part in a child's obesity then that's even more reason for the initiative. Nobody is going in there trying to make a kid feel bad. But somebody has to say "hey, 8 cans of blue juice per day is not good for you!"
I agree that people should live and let live. If you want to be fat or thin, so be it.
But this implies people have a choice.
And some of the posts above imply they don't.
Which I agree with.
Healthy food (and exercise too) costs $$ and poor kids and poor families can't afford it.
Now that is a problem.
I also do not agree with this:
Quote:
I've just been reading Gina Kolata's Rethinking Thin. She sites study after study going back a hundred years, that show no matter what kind of diet we use, we will almost all regain. She talks about research done over decades by the University of Pennsylvania that proved obese people have no more psychological problems than thin people. Thin people are just as likely to have low-self esteem, eat under stress, eat at night, binge, and comfort themselves with food as obese people.
I think you can change what you eat, eat how much of that you want and not regain. I eat a lot. But it's not the cheap stuff I used to. Those thin people are not binging on cheap burgers and fries.
I am really starting to think that this how much you eat and even the binging dicussion does not matter.
If you binge on steamed brocolli, trust me, you won't gain a pound. It may not be psychologically healthy but physically it's surely the "what" that matters...
I agree that people should live and let live. If you want to be fat or thin, so be it.
But this implies people have a choice.
And some of the posts above imply they don't.
Which I agree with.
Healthy food (and exercise too) costs $$ and poor kids and poor families can't afford it.
Now that is a problem.
But public schools SHOULD afford it, that's the whole point with the initiative. There is little we can do to ensure that kids grow up in a healthy household. We can however ensure that they have access to physical education daily, and nutritious food to eat at school.
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