I am not trying to offend anyone or be rude in any way. This is an honest to god question that I've been struggling with.
Ok, so story first. I belong to deviant art, it is one of my favorite websites out there. I came across an artist who, as well as being a huge fat acceptance activist, had an awesome picture of a big girl as a pinup. However, after the picture were about 10 pages of comments. Some were really supportive and others were really really cruel. I actually had to stop looking after awhile because it was making me cry. The girl was really lovely and sweet and and was incredibly polite and kind to even the rudest poster. However, one poster that disagreed with her view was able to express it in a way that was not cruel. He simply asked her: Why do you want to support something you know to be unhealthy?
She argued that being overweight doesn't necessarily connote laziness or unhealthiness and that there are overweight people that are in much better physical health than people of a "normal weight". However, as you all and I know, being overweight does negatively impact your health.
So here's what is bothering me. Because I have always been overweight and been a huge fan of women with curves I am inclined to support fat acceptance, just because I know what it's like to be picked on for my weight and I'm tired of obesity being the one thing that people can still give you cr*p about. However...I feel that supporting such a group is also inherently irresponsible because it encourages unhealthy behavior. I want people to be less judgemental and I can see where such groups would help that...but at the same time I want people to be healthy so they can experience...well....life and opportunity.
Huh? Art is supposed to be about health? I thought art was supposed to be about a lot of things, but health? Guess we should get rid of all those Campbell Soup painting thingamajigs. And that guy who cut his ear off was *most* definitely unhealthy. I mean, he could have gotten a MRSA infection!!! If art is screened through a view to public health, we are in trouble! Why don't we screen our food supply through a view of public health first?
I think there are idiots in this world who use any excuse to be jerks, and like you pointed out, obese people are targets. The point really is that my opinion as an individual re: obesity as a health problem (or not) has absolutely no bearing on anyone's life, and it shouldn't. How in the world does posting a beautiful piece of artwork = condoning an unhealthy behavior?
I think that person should spend more time getting cigarettes out of Hollywood films. Sheesh.
I think you have put it very well. I have spent most of my adult life overweight or obese. I can accept who I am as a person regardless of my weight don't think I'm less of a person because of it but I've never been a fat acceptor. I can't accept obesity as a lifestyle choice just in the same way I wouldn't support the choices of a drug addict or an alcoholic.
I agree with you that obesity seems to be the last bastion where discrimination is still acceptable and I have felt stereotyped and hurt by generalisations made about obese people. I do think there are many fit and healthy overweight people and I counted myself as one of them.
I do think we need to adopt a position of not being judgemental about people's weight but I also think we need to be supportive of people who wish to adopt healthier lifestyle choices - that is why I am here.
I personally think it's more about accepting peoples difference's than fat acceptance. This beautiful piece of art someone chose as a favorite suited their taste/style -- that's a choice. Someone may not agree with that choice, but as individuals, it is our job to accept everyones right to personal choice. I personally am not comfortable/healthy/happy being overweight -- person next to me may be perfectly okay/healthy/happy with themselves being overweight -- it is their life and my position is to respect that, not try to change them. My god -- I'd be chasing cigarette smokers all day if I thought it was my right to push my morals/preferences on everyone else!! I also believe everyone is allowed an opinion, as long as it is not infringing on others rights as well.
He simply asked her: Why do you want to support something you know to be unhealthy?
Would he ask the same question if she took a picture of a smoker having a cigarette? If she took a picture of a drug addict? An alcoholic?
Why does a picture of another human being who happens to be overweight or obese have to be supporting anything? Oh, we're supposed to only ignore or ridicule the overweight, right. Silly me I forgot. I thought art could be plainly about appreciating the beauty of another human being. Even if *shock and terror* that person happens to be overweight.
Onto to your actual question.
I see nothing wrong with treating another human being as just that, another human being. And that's what I like about fat acceptance. They've got the balls to stand up and say "Hey, you've got no right to call me anything other than 'fat'. Because fat doesn't mean I'm lazy. It doesn't mean I'm stupid. And it doesn't mean I can't get the job done."
I like that certain groups talk about trying to be healthy by eating better & exercising more. And that they talk about not dieting. Dieting can make things worse... especially when it's a crash diet.
What I dislike is that at times it seems certain groups ignore certain medical facts. I don't believe that preaching "Being obese is completely harmless" (Note: I'm exaggerating) really helps anyone... because we don't know that it's completely harmless.
I think the message gets lost when the subject matter turns to health alone. It should be "Respect me as a human being regardless of my health, and regardless of the way I look."
Do you remember, at anytime while being over weight, when someone has given you unwanted advice? Or made a comment about their weight? I think people need to learn to accept boundaries. People make a conscious decision to be unhealthy, or at least be overweight... who are we to tell them that they can't because it's unhealthy? Or that it's wrong because it's unhealthy?
If it's something that you don't want to support, then don't support it. But, people shouldn't put their foot where it doesn't belong.
(When I say "you" I'm not referring to "you" as in the OP, just any person who feels that way).
Oh gosh, I think it's a lot more complicated than people making a decision to be unhealthy or overweight. Very few people were "struck obese" overnight--although many may have been overweight for as long as they can remember.
Instead I've read many posts from people who say "How did I let it get to this point?" Well, it creeps up on some people over a long period of time. Ten pounds a year... times ten years... etc.
(As an analogy--I don't think anyone decides "Oh, I think I'll become an alcoholic and die of liver disease," either.)
I think it's important to accept people as they are, without judging them. That's really a lot easier to say than it is to do. Most of us have no problem accepting people who generally agree with our opinions and beliefs... It's those "other people" that make it difficult.
I also want to point this out: There is a difference between having an increased risk of illness and actually being ill. Many overweight people are not ill. They may become ill at some point, in some way, because of the risk factors--but no blanket statement applies.
I'm on the fence with this one as well. There's no question that fat bashing is probably the only acceptable form of prejudice that people don't worry about expressing. Don't get me wrong, I think people still have many other prejudices, it's just not as socially acceptable to voice them. I think the perhaps makes fat bashing more rampant. So, yes, people shouldn't be attacked for their current weight, working on it or not. I suspect when I'm out that I'm very much judged for how I look at this moment. I eat a healthy diet and exercise regularly - something those who judge me likely don't do.
However, I think pursuing a more healthy lifestyle is something everyone should strive for. And the more rampant side of the fat acceptance movement seem to be quite derisive of people trying to improve themselves (ie. diet)
I agree with Faerie regarding heavyset people in art -- depict a drug addict, an anorexic model, a homeless person, whatever, and your art is ab finding beauty in uncommon places. Depict a fat person in a beautiful way, and you're supporting an unhealthy lifestyle (G*d D*mn you to ****!). It's nonsense, bc the real issue here is TOTALLY not health, but the fact that the person depicted in a beautiful way was fat and no one, not even the most open-minded, liberal art-lovers out there, will concede that a fat person can be beautiful.
In terms of fat-acceptance... I understand you dilemma. But I don't think supporting fat acceptance necessarily means promoting bad health, or pretending like being massively obese isn't a health risk. I'm sure it is sometimes interpreted that way, but I see it differently. To me, fat acceptance is about those cruel comments mentioned in the OP... the comments that are so filled with HATRED all bc someone is fat or overweight. Fat acceptance, imo, seeks to combat the kind of demeaning, cruel attitude overweight people often face simply bc they are overweight. It also combats the internalizing of that cruelty -- how many of us have thought cruel, evil, terrible things about ourselves bc of our weights? I certainly have; I have thought things about myself I would be ashamed to think about others, all bc I'm fat. The fat acceptance movement seeks to promote the idea that yes, someone might be fat, but they still deserve to be treated with the same consideration and kindness as anyone else.
I don't think fat acceptance and weightloss are mutually exclusive either. I support fat acceptance, but I don't accept and embrace that I'm fat and want to learn to live at this weight without trying to lose more. But I feel like I deserve basic respect EVEN IF I NEVER LOSE ANOTHER OUNCE.
Now, again, I'm sure that for some people, they hide behind the fat acceptance movement and use it as an excuse to maintain an unhealthy lifestyle, eat poor foods and be completely inactive. I think that's ridiculous, personally, but like with any ideology or philosophy, people can take it and use it to suit their needs.
EDIT: I was just thinking ab it a bit more and it occured to me: Even if a person hides behind fat acceptance as an excuse to stay heavy, imo they don't owe thinness to anyone. if they're happy being fat, healthy or not, they don't HAVE TO become healthy, or thin, or whatever. If they want to use fat acceptance and say, "Hey, world, this is how I am, now and forever! I'm never going to change so deal with me as I am with respect and dignity!" that's their perogative, imo. Personally, I enjoy watching what I eat and exercising, but lots of people simply do not; they're not happy on diets and following eating plans and they hate exercise. They don't *HAVE TO* do these things that they hate if they don't want to.
I hope I'm making sense... I just mean, no one owes thinness or dieting or whatever to the world.
I think this is a really good topic and I do have some (fairly strong) thoughts on the subject ... both in relation to "fat acceptance" as a general concept and in relation to art (since I'm a photographer).
First of all, I've said before in another thread here that I photograph women of all sizes. One of the things I do is boudoir work and I'll be honest - it's MUCH easier (IMO) to make a curvy woman look sexy than it is to make a super-skinny one. The size 2s I photograph are very very challenging. The size 22s are easier for a lot of reasons. Is it art? I dunno ... this is my living, so I don't make any pretensions that I'm being the "arteest" ... I just try to make my clients look as good as possible so they'll pay me more money!
From an "acceptance" point of view - I wish we'd all just accept each other as human. Fat, thin, black, white, tall, short, religious, whatever ... accept each person for what they have to offer. No one is a lesser person for being fat.
Here's where I suspect I might get flamed: From a FAT acceptance point of view, I never will agree with the concept that being fat is a good thing or something to celebrate or even encourage. I will never agree that fat people should get special privileges or benefits for being fat because to do so otherwise is discriminatory (and note, I do think there's a difference between discrimination against someone because they're fat - i.e. not hiring them for a job they're otherwise qualified for - vs. being realistic about capabilities). I think if being fat causes someone to incur extra expenses or to be unable to do something that someone of a healthy weight could do, I don't think it's beholden on anyone to make special accommodations for them. I think saying that being fat is "ok" or even "good" is simply wrong.
That's me. I've been skinny, I've been fat, and I'm now currently somewhere in between. I've been the one who couldn't get on the ride at the amusement park because the bar wouldn't close over my belly. I've been the one who had to ask for seatbelt extenders on the plane. I've been the one who sat on a chair and broke it. And I had to accept that being fat was a CHOICE I made. It may not have been a conscious choice, but it was a choice.
depict a drug addict, an anorexic model, a homeless person, whatever, and your art is ab finding beauty in uncommon places. Depict a fat person in a beautiful way, and you're supporting an unhealthy lifestyle
You posted this while I was responding! I just wanted to comment on this really quickly. In my experience this is NOT true.
I think we all tend to focus on whatever effects/hurts us the most and feel like others aren't equally "persecuted". The truth is that in the art/photography world there is ALWAYS a lot of discussion around all of these scenarios. In the photojournalism community there's always discussion around how far a photographer should go in documenting things ... and at what point is the photographer glamourizing something that shouldn't be glamourized or promoting something that shouldn't be promoted.
There's been a whole lot of discussion in the news recently about ultra-skinny models and how ethical it is to use them, photograph them, design clothes around them. And I think that's *just* as valid a discussion as whether or not it's ok to glamourize an unhealthy level of obesity.
I see what you're saying and I agree that images of very skinny women, drug addicts, etc etc., though often glamorized, are sometimes called into question. However, in those cases the objection isn't purely with the subject-matter, as with the large-scale circulation of the unhealthy subject matter. Meaning, a fashion show features tiny models with protruding bones and thousands of people see those images and that "image" is reinforced by magazines, TV ads, actresses in movies, singers, MTV, etc. All of these sources reinforce the notion that you should force yourself into a size 00 no matter what. So people begin questioning how far the population should have these ideas jammed down their throats. But I honestly feel it's largely bc of how publicized those kinds of fashion images are.
In this case, we're talking ab a single image (in a sea of contrary messages) and I think the objection was purely with the subject matter itself, not with its potential influence, even though that poster questioned promoting an unhealthy lifestyle. Maybe I'm off-base here, but I really think it was pure revulsion at what was depicted, not genuine concern for its influence over others.
But really, I'd love to actually see this artwork -- to the OP: Can you post a link to it?
Quote:
Originally Posted by PhotoChick
You posted this while I was responding! I just wanted to comment on this really quickly. In my experience this is NOT true.
I think we all tend to focus on whatever effects/hurts us the most and feel like others aren't equally "persecuted". The truth is that in the art/photography world there is ALWAYS a lot of discussion around all of these scenarios. In the photojournalism community there's always discussion around how far a photographer should go in documenting things ... and at what point is the photographer glamourizing something that shouldn't be glamourized or promoting something that shouldn't be promoted.
There's been a whole lot of discussion in the news recently about ultra-skinny models and how ethical it is to use them, photograph them, design clothes around them. And I think that's *just* as valid a discussion as whether or not it's ok to glamourize an unhealthy level of obesity.
These are some awesome responses and I suppose I should take a moment to clarify what I said in my OP. When the poster asked the artist why she supported something so unhealthy he was referring to the fat acceptance movement, rather than her art. However, I also think that art is subjective and that we each find beauty in different things. Also, note to KLK, I looked for the piece but I can't find it right now.* I'll keep looking. I think that PhotoChick brings up what is basically the crux of my dilemma. It's the same question I have when I watch ANTM. I feel it is unethical to focus the fashion industry on super thin women because it encourages an unhealthy body image. However, I think encouraging us to be unhealthy in the other direction is just as unethical. Any more thoughts?
***
whoops! Ok, I found the link for the people curious. I was wrong, it wasn't a pinup, although there are some gorgeous ones of those that I had found.
It was actually a Fat Acceptance banner for a website.
h t t p ://winterbutterfly81.deviantart.com/art/Fat-Acceptance-39640416
enjoy
Last edited by Sidheag; 09-02-2008 at 03:21 PM.
Reason: New info
This is very interesting. I do believe in accepting people for who they are but I don't believe in the fat acceptance movement- which to me is celebrating an unhealthy lifestyle. A couple of times yesterday I wanted to post about this-but I was worried about being judgemental. I was at Darien Lake on the weekend and I was shocked and appalled at the number of grossly obese children at the park. I am sure there are many different reasons for it but in some cases it was clear that it was purely overeating. I was at the water park and a family came in. The son who was around 13 was obese and he started eating from the minute he walked into the park until we left. He never went near the water or even walked. Teddygrahams, one after another into his mouth, then chips and the mom was eating and handing it out. As a mother, I take my role very seriously, and whatever poor choices I make for myself I do not allow my children to do the same. We can choose to supply the food or not. I don't. My children (now 13 and 15) are allowed treats and deserts- don't get me wrong but I portion control and access control. They are healthy, in the right BMI range and active and always have been. When they become adults or have more of their own money obviously I won't be able to control but at least I have set them off on the right foot. It kept crossing my mind that this was abuse that I was seeing. There was another family of three children so obese that they could barely walk and hoist themselves onto seats on the rides. A little girl of approx 8 years old - she was at least 160 lbs, she had no facial features left they were obscured by her cheeks. It was so sad- you know that her life at school is no fun. So no I don't believe in the fat acceptance movement.
There is a big difference between accepting someone for who they are and agreeing with their choices. I have plenty of friends who are of a different political persuasion than me, but I do not agree with them -- I just accept that they view life through a different lense. Religion is the same.
While weight is a little different because of the immediate health consequences. It's premise is still basically the same because internally I believe that the choices some people make, be it political, religous or the food they put in their mouths can all be detrimental to their well-being. However, I also know that I am viewing life through my own particular life experience, and, therefore, I work extremely hard not to judge anyone as long as they are doing no harm to others with their choices and actions. It is my mantra -- live and let live unless you hurt someone else.
However, I draw the line when it comes to other people's children. A person who allows their child to grow obese by not teaching or instituting portion control and by not making nutritionally sound choices -- especially with their small children -- is commiting child abuse in my book. I am trying to make some better choices in my own life, but I have always been extremely careful when it comes to feeding my kids and making sure they get plenty of exercise and do not just sit around watching TV and playing video games. Now, I am also trying to be a better model for them by living a healthier life style -- my husband is doing the same.
So, fat acceptance is fine and anyone who discriminates against overweight people really piss me off, but embracing fat as an OK life style choice? I just cannot go there. It is like saying we should embrace smoking as a life style choice, or alcoholism, or, ****, anorexia or bulemia. No way. Embracing something that is slowly killing you is not OK. That said, photos of overweight people as art are absolutely fine. Fat can definitely be attractive in the right lighting -- it still doesn't mean it is good for you.
Mixed Feelings about Fat Acceptance
I also believe everyone is allowed an opinion, as long as it is not infringing on others rights as well.
