I stumbled across NAAFA online a few years ago. I thought they had a lot of valid points regarding the mistreatment of fat people but that they were intellectually dishonest. If you can be healthy at any size, doesn't that include anorexics?
Secondly, I found their rhetoric rude and agressive. The sites I saw were saturated with the F-word. I'm not a prude, but my eyes tend to glaze over when I see a lot of cursing substituting for valid argument.
I agree that taunting and degrading people about their weight is wrong and counterproductive with regards to health. I should know, I've experienced it myself. But I will be more willing to listen to Naafa if/when they can make their points in a more reasonable manner, stop swearing, and stop e-shouting at people they disagree with instead of reasoning with them.

I think you see it with many groups that are "counterculture," it's like some feel that you can't be off mainstream, unless you're WAY off mainstream, or if you disagree with some of societies rules, you start to reject all of them. Drawing the line, isn't always easy for people.

I call it "Rush-Limbaugh syndrome," don't just make a point, take it to the extreme in order to provoke people. It's designed to provoke to force a disagreement, drawing attention to the argument and hoping a person comes away with a half-way veiwpoint. But I don't think the extreme opinion does force others to meet you half way, it only roots them firmer into their original perspective. I think it actually becomes a case where people believe their own BS and thrive on the discension. They're not having fun, unless they're arguing with the mainstream opinion, but to insure the argument, they have to present an extreme opinion.

"Counterculture" movements always include fringe groups who take it to the extreme, and in essence often make it more difficult for the moderate viewpoint to be heard, because everyone associates the argument with the "nut jobs."

I meant to add this the other day, about fat kids. I know the original posters were talking about seeing parents purchasing junk food for already overweight children. However, I'd like to share my childhood experience.

I was a fat kid, and probably into the obese range before I graduated high school. My parents provided good, healthy food, with little junk food in the house. It didn't matter because I was always hungry. You can gain weight on non-junk items. Cheese, bread, fruit, nuts - these were the things I remember eating a lot of as a child. After dinner, when still hungry, I would sneak food. Having said all that about food at home, if we'd been out for the day at a fair I would likely have been allowed a bit of junk food as a treat.

My parents tried, but nothing helped. I wasn't specifically put on a diet, but when my father developed diabetes we all followed his meal plan. It didn't matter though, I still gained weight. Once out on my own my food choices weren't always as good as they had been at home, although I still cooked a lot of my own meals. Attempts to diet sent me through the drive-thru on my way home from work. Some of the things I've learned is that I don't do well on low calorie diets. Although I've just recently dropped my calories a bit (as my weight continues to drop) I still eat no less than 2000 calories a day. I work on making good food with fewer calories. With few exceptions I make most meals ahead of time and divide it up into portions. I really need to do this as it's about the only thing that works for me. The meals that aren't made ahead will start with measured meat and recipes that let me control what I put on my plate. Keeping protein levels higher (30-35%) helps with hunger, and taking 5 mins each night to plan food for the next day is critical.

Sorry, I wandered off topic, but just pointing out that no matter what some parents do, it may not be enough.

Wow, I go away for a couple of days and look at the great discussion I miss out on!

I tried going through and marking stuff to multi quote but kept losing my train of thought as far as which passages/paragraphs it was I wanted to respond to so, after wasting my entire lunch hour on this one thread , I'm giving up and just commenting in general

I haven't read any of the NAAFA literature so I'm basing this on other poster's comments. If I misinterpret, I know I can count on you guys to correct me (PhotoChick ).

If they are just saying "d**n the torpedos and pass the potatoes, I wanna eat!" then I don't see myself being in support of their views. And while I certainly believe that a large person can be photographed/painted/sculpted in every bit as lovely an interpretation as a small person, I would have a hard time understanding why someone would intentionally set out to get as big as they could. (Of course, that is very probably due to my growing up in the age when Twiggy was considered the hottest thing ever to don a miniskirt and go-go boots, and the most famous quote was "you can never be too rich or too thin" ).

But, if they are more about equality? As in equal treatment? Same as anyone with anything about them that makes them perceived to be "different", I could see their side of things. I mean, how can you tell just by looking whether a person is obese "by choice"? Maybe they have a disability that is a major contributing factor - in which case, they should be entitled to the same assistance and considerations under the Americans with Disabilities Act as a parapalegic is - but probably aren't going to get it.

As far as obese kids? If a parent is one of those who can eat anything in sight without gaining, they are never, ever going to be able to understand what their child is going through and are probably going to do more harm than good by trying to force *diets* down the kids throat. I think it was Kaplods who said that her parents well intentioned efforts just brought attention to food being central in her life. I don't have a solution but I do know that this conversation has changed the way I want to approach the situation with my DGS who is only 8 but already "chunky" (DGD is 10 and about as big around as a pencil ). I now have every intention of setting a quiet example instead of lecturing on what he should and shouldn't eat.

If the parents are also "challenged" in the waistline, they are going to be in denial about their kids being fat every bit as much as they are about themselves. If it is not appropriate to make a comment to an overweight woman in a donut shop about her own food choices, how is it any more appropriate to challenge her performance as a mother by commenting on the foods she offers her children? One of the things that makes me kind of sad is that budget cuts in a lot of school districts (at least around here) are forcing them to cut "non-essential" programs like P.E. Some team sports like football and basketball manage to find outside sponsors (or get paid for by the parents) but the kid who doesn't have the skills to make a team gets to just sit all day - probably munching on chips. It's not the school's fault but it would sure be nice if there was more community interest in getting the kids involved in physical activities besides the ones that might have them saying "hi Mom" on Monday Night Football someday.

I think the problem with the idea that what people need is not fat acceptance, it's "self acceptance" is that self acceptance if inherently influenced by fat acceptance, or by revulsion at fat people. Yes, they need to accept themselves. They have trouble with that. But they wouldn't have that trouble if it weren't for the crushing societal pressure.

First let me preface this by saying I am in relatively good shape, fence and/or run daily, and eat well. I've always been overweight, and I do mean always, from the very moment I was born. I was a cute little kid, but I was still overweight. Most likely I will always be overweight- I just have a slow metabolism, an honestly wide, short bone structure, and a tendency to build bulky muscle.

The problem is, the pressure on a not even hugely fat, but large child can be enormous and crippling. What the norms regarding weight I've encountered over my life have done is turn that outgoing intelligent child into a reclusive, neurotic adult. People won't talk to a fat child on the playground. So the fat child loses the chance to develop social skills. People won't date a fat person in middle/high school, when all that awkwardness is getting sorted out and everyone's clueless. So the fat person has more trouble negotiating romance later in life. I walk down the street and assume that everyone I has something unkind to say about my weight because, in the past, that has been the case with the majority of people I know, and that makes me that much less capable of accomplishing anything. I feel self conscious sitting in a classroom, and you can forget dancing. And yes, what I need isn't a fat acceptance movement, it's better self esteem. But I wouldn't have a self esteem problem if I hadn't been singled out for emotional abuse so young and consistently.

I feel like the demonization of sexuality as far as fat people are concerned is a huge problem. A fat person puts on a knee length skirt and suddenly she's a menace to the community for exposing it to her legs and deserves public ridicule. The message is that it's perfectly okay to harass fat people endlessly the instant they make an overture (let alone *gasp* a romantic gesture) towards someone "better than them". Being smacked down every time one makes an attempt is pretty disheartening, and I think it's one of the biggest quality of life issues for fat people. That, I suspect, is why the fat acceptance movement got mixed up with people who fetishize fatness, and though I think it was a mistake, I can understand the reasoning. The fat acceptance movement is a little bit like the San Francisco gay pride parade in that respect- they end up being over the top and unrealistic simply because there is so much opposition that they're countering it as violently as they possibly can with the assumption that that will help all that much more.

In my opinion, something absolutely needs to be done about this. Regardless of the health effects of being fat, people can't always help it, and the prejudice exists both for those who can't and those who can and those who are already trying. The prejudice may eventually force change, but as previous posters have pointed out, it works against itself by creating so much shame fat people feel badly about eating a salad or going jogging. We can't let so much damage be done by prejudice. I'm not saying I entirely agree with the fat acceptance movement as it is, but I think there is definitely a need for SOME fat acceptance movement, and that starts from the individual level, by doing things like, for instance, portraying fat people as beautiful not all the time, but, y'know, occasionally switching off that automatic revulsion installed in your brain.

Just a general comment.

I don't even really think how you treat someone has much if anything to do with whether they can help it. At least, not unless there is nothing in your own life you shouldn't do better at, including how you treat people .

That's what I don't get. Since when is it acceptable to treat people differently because they may be less than perfect, and since when did everyone but obese people get perfect?

Because none of us are perfect, I think we are all going to be suseptable to treating some people differently whether we intend to or not. The best we can do is try to recognize that we are making a judgement about someone that we would not want others to make about us and try to correct ourselves. Haven't you ever been in line behind someone who was, um, ripe and thought "ugh, hasn't that person ever heard of deoderant?" You've just made a judgement about that person's hygene without thinking whether they might have a medical condition that makes them more "noticable" no matter how many showers they take and how much deoderant or cologne they pile on (I knew a girl like that in high school - we all saw her shower after P.E. and put deoderant on right away but, by the time she finished getting dressed, she badly needed another shower). Because of that judgement, you are going to treat that person differently - you might not bluntly say "you stink, get away from me!" but you aren't going to offer them a seat next to you on the bus either. Doesn't mean they aren't a perfectly nice, intellegent person but you are repulsed by them enough that you aren't going to bother to find that out.

This discussion has progressed quite a bit since this morning. I don't really have much that's useful to add (since everyone has already said much about the insights that I've had about this).

I can tell you that, in this city at least, I see examples of fat-bashing. In particular, one of the morning radio shows seems to aggressively bash fat and/or "ugly" people. I personally find this extremely offensive.

I've also seen publications online about "fat acceptance," but I think they are missing the mark. Just like the fat-bashers, they are taking their eye off the person and emphasizing FAT in their message. It doesn't do anything for me. If anything, it gives the fat-bashers something else to level a target on.

As I've mentioned on other threads, building my self-esteem is work that has come to the foreground for me. But loving myself doesn't mean putting a shine on the things about me that, in my deepest heart, I know I need to change. It means accepting that I need work and caring enough about myself to put the work in.

We should have enough esteem in our own eyes to treat ourselves caringly. We should have enough esteem for others to do the same for them. That means being honest, not cruel, about their flaws and letting them know they're loveable regardless.

No more fat bashing! No more fat exalting, either! Love people, not fat.

so there,
Tera

I think that's brilliant!

Seriously, I think that cuts to the heart of what we're all saying here. I suspect that we're all on the same (or very similar) pages, just expressing it differently.

If people would quit focusing on the external - the color, the size, the shape, the FAT - and just focus on the person, we'd all be better off.

.

ive been reading this thread on and off, and this really stood out for me i think if peopel focused on that, everyone (fat or not) would be a lot happier

Who or what is Rush-Limbaugh?
Excuse me if everyone knows

A radio talk show host...

Wiki or Google him if you'd like to know. I'm sure there's plenty out there about him.

ok...i get it now