WW Clubs and Groups - Turtle Club #42

Lin's introduction to the group:
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Here it is - my "official" version of the fable:

The Hare and the Tortoise

A hare met a tortoise one day and made fun of him for the slow and clumsy way in which he walked.

The tortoise laughed and said, "I will run a race with you any time that you choose."

"Very well," replied the hare, "we will start at once."

The tortoise immediately set off in his slow and steady way without waiting a moment or looking back. The hare, on the other hand, treated the matter as a joke and decided to take a little nap before starting, for she thought that it would be an easy matter to overtake her rival.

The tortoise plodded on, and meanwhile the hare overslept herself, with the result that she arrived at the winning-post only to see that the tortoise had got in before her.

Moral: Slow and steady wins the race.

This comes from a book handed down from my grandmother to my mother to me. The book is so old it doesn't have a copyright date or an author/editor's credit.

That fable has been the motivation for us turtles for about two years. Someone on the ancient WW forum mentioned the fable and I discovered it was very motivational for me. I talked about it in posts and other people said that the tortoise philosophy worked for them, too. So, I started a thread for us turtle types.

We work toward accepting that our bodies have a natural speed of weight loss when we choose to live a healthy life, instead of "going on a diet". Many of us have experienced "the diets" as go on/lose weight-- go off/ gain the weight plus more back.

We choose to perservere with each choice we make throughout the day. We believe that choosing to be slow, steady turtles helps us to learn the skills we need to learn in order to not only lose the weight, but keep it off and become the healthiest people we can be.

So, welcome to all who realize that losing and maintaining a weight loss is a lifestyle change. And who want support as we all learn the skills we need to successfully make the changes that will allow us to reach our goals.

Happy turtlin', everyone!

Lin

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Hope you don't mind, Lin.

Well, tortoise beings, I have an announcement to make. This morning at my home weigh-in, I lost 2 pounds and finally reached ONEDERLAND!! OK, it's just by the skin of my teeth, it's still a half pound from my Christmas goal, and one salty meal or a humid day would kick me right back into the 200s, but BY GUM, I'LL TAKE IT! :D

I was hoping it wasn't just a fluke, and it wasn't. The numbers were still there this morning. Wow, it's been a while since I saw a "1" in the front of my weight. I feel like singing!

The sun is trying to come out here, and it's supposed to get up to 60 degrees. It ain't Christmasy, but it's good walking weather. Think I'll take advantage of it.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/199.5/199 by Christmas

Woohoo Lauren! You go girl! I'm dancing for you! (mentally at least!) :):):):)

Hi, Turtles,

Way to go, Lauren! I knew you would do it! Bet you're solidly in the 190's somewhere by Christmas Day. :)

Thanks for starting the new thread. My computer time has been limited by my kids the past couple of days. My youngest has been sick and has had our AOL account tied up for hours and my oldest has been hogging the computer to work on music. When they get an idea for music or art, no one else gets the machine. Makes me grateful that all I need to create is a pen and paper! ;)

Lauren, you asked about support hose in your last post. I wore the most support of support hose when I worked retail. Putting it on felt like unfolding rubber bands around your legs. I hate wearing plain old regular pantihose! Once I stopped working reatil, I decided no more support hose and pantihose only when I must. I have to get a writing career going just so I can go to work in my bathrobe! :lol: I'll go back to wearing them if it gets really bad. I've found that if I get in some walking, don't stand or sit for too long without moving around, wear really good shoes, and put my legs up when they're really bad, I'm fine. My legs don't hurt at all. It's just when I don't do those things that they act up. I think that continuing to drop the pounds, however slowly, will really help.

Hi, Mousie! Glad to hear from you, even if it's short.

I'm still doing fine. Still OP. Still walking.

I had some challenges this week and I'm so proud that I was able to handle them well. The lessons are finally sinking in. One was my decadent cake. I ate more than one piece, but I spaced them out so that I only ate a piece when I had rebuilt my points bank to cover it.

While walking in the mall, Micky D's started calling me. Never happens. So, I made some hamburgers, sauteed mushrooms and onions, lettuce and tomato, onion rolls and oven fries. Much better than Micky D's and it satisfied the craving for a burger and fries without messing up my determination to stay within my point range.

So, those are my successes for the week.

Hope everyone is doing great!

Happy turtlin'! :D

Lin
272/237/135 or so

Lauren!!!!!!
Whohee yippee yi a--or something like that. You are amazing!
I am so happy for you. Grab yourself and give yourself a huge hug! You did it.

LIn,
How smart to make a McDonald's Superior Burger at home. I'm sure you're a thousand times b etter cook than they are.

Mousie,
Hi! Good to see your name.

Everyone:
I am back to my previous Thanksgiving weight. Next challenge is to knock off a real pound!
Judy 234/209/199 soon

Hi, Turtles,

Woohoo! Judy, that's great. Your pre-Thanksgiving weight is such a success! Remember what most people do--They gain a bit and keep on gaining a bit until after January 1. But not our successful Judy. No way! She gets right back on track and right back to that pre-Thanksgiving weight. And on to a lower weight before January 1. Super job!

I may check in later and write a post about how my day is going. (So far, so good.) But upon reading your successful message, Judy, I had to write a quick post to congratulate you on how well you've turned yourself around these past few months.

Have a great day!

Happy turtlin'! :cool:

Lin
272/237/135 or so

Yea, Judy! Teetering on virgin fat territory again! That's so great. :)

Lin, I'm very impressed by your homemade McDonald's meal -- especially by the fact that you were able to say no to instant gratification. Not my strong suit! I'm sure yours was infinitely better, and that you felt much better afterward that you would've otherwise.

Mousie, thanks for the woo-hoos! How's life treating you these days?

Yesterday I ended up getting a lot of exercise. I did my usual 55-minute morning workout, but it was a nice day and MIL was still here (she left this morning), so we went for a walk in the afternoon that lasted more than an hour. I was a tad sore by evening but feel fine today. I didn't do a workout this morning but plan to walk a bit instead. It's going to be in the 60s today again (!), but plunging down to the 40s and then 30s the rest of the week.

Lots of neighbors have lights up this year; it's so cheerful to see. I plan to drag DH outside some evening this week just to walk around the neighborhood and look at lights.

Last night's WW meeting was good, as always. We just talked about various lifestyle and behavior changes we've all made. Nothing earthshaking, but helpful. I was down 2.2 on their scales. It would be great to see 199 on their scales by Christmas! (I'm currently just over 203, so it could happen.)

Hope everyone has a lovely Wednesday.

Onward and downward,

274/199.5/199 by Christmas (home scales, a.m.)

Life is...well, I don't know what life is right now. :) A word hasn't been invented yet!

I'm coming up on finals (start in 10 days) so all my classes are winding down, final projects, final lectures, etc. I Got an 87% on my last OChem test, though, so I just need a good grade on the test friday and I'm sitting pretty. :)

I'm working on a term paper for Kinesiology right now, but with little-to-no direction on it, I'm rather floundering. I've gotten full marks on all the other papers, though, so I'm not that worried.

DH's Christmas Party is tomorrow night, and I've got a lovely gauzy-sparkly dress with a full-length velvet coat to wear over. As Wife of Manager I can't look dowdy, now can I? ;) Does mean time will be pinched for my OChem review, but I plan to get up early on friday morning. I study better in the morning anyway.

I'm also reading through this book I found about disordered eating. I have never regarded myself as having an eating disorder, I just didn't know how to eat right. The first time I was on WW, in Chicago, I learned everything I needed to know and lost the weight easily. Then my relationship with DH started, and all the turmoil with moving, school, etc, and some of it came back. I've tried to restart WW several times this year and it's never "stuck". Recently I realized that I'm just not nice to myself, and I don't take very good care of myself. I was wondering why I put myself last on my list of priorities, and why I was doing something to myself (regaining the weight) that I didn't want to do. Then I found this book, and it's REALLY giving me things to think about. I'm working through it slowly. It's called It's Not About Food, and well worth a read.

So anyway. I'm avoiding the scale right now, trying to listen to when I'm hungry, what I'm hungry for, how much I'm hungry for, that sort of thing. I'm discovering that, much to my surprise, I don't need to eat nearly as much as I thought I did! And because I'm eating what I WANT to eat, I'm satisfied with just that, instead of eating too much of something I don't really want in an effort to distract myself. So yes I have had cranberry-orange swirl bread with butter for breakfast and lunch today. (10 points total, if you're interested). But it was what I wanted, and I'm content and happy with those two slices of bread. Amazing.

Judy, cool! I knew you could do it. :)

Lauren, you're really on a roll! No pun intended, of course. ;)

Lin, I completely agree with the freedom that just needing "a pen and paper" brings. I'd go nuts without my journals, and luck me I can have them anywhere.

Well, I'm off, must find last month's journal. Would help if I had some idea where to look...

Hi, Turtles,

Well, I wrote a nice post, and I lost my Internet connection, along with the post. One of the things I hate about living away from the Big City is the lousy Internet service. We have one local access number for the whole town. And no possibility of DSL or any other high-speed connection, even if we could afford one.

Anyway, Lauren, what you said about my thing with Micky D's got me wondering why I didn't have the problem that you mentioned. I realized that the reason the instant gratification thing wasn't an issue was that I wasn't hungry when I was wanting the Micky D's I was smelling. That's what caused me to even question why I was wanting to stop and buy anything. I think I needed some red meat. I occasionally find that I crave a little beef or pork. But next time, I'm making some smaller burgers for me and eating half of the bun. It would have been enough food.

If I had been hungry, it would have been a whole different question to deal with. Like, why in the world did I go for an hour and a half walk on an empty stomach? I always walk after a mini meal precisely so that doesn't happen. I made that mistake once and that was enough.

Your evening walk to look at lights sounds divine. Wish we had lights. Our complex is so extra safety conscious that we're not allowed to put lights on our patios or balconies. (fire hazard) We can put them inside the windows, but few of my neighbors have. This isn't a very neighborly place, even though the apartments are designed to be really homelike and they encourage you to stay for a long time. If any of our lights work, I may put some in my window, but no one will see them because our windows face a wall and a hallway. Wish we could decorate our garage door.

Mousie, your cranberry and orange bread with butter sounds yummy! And 10 points is not overindulging for two meals. Sounds like your body is doing its job well. It's good that you're paying attention.

I once vowed never to try to lose weight again. That was before WW came out with their "ultimate in flexibility" point system. The reason was that I was tired of not being able to eat the foods I wanted to eat. And trying to fit recipes into a super restrictive program. I remember when it was a big deal that you could eat homebaked bread and peanut butter and popcorn. And I wasn't losing any weight, either. I realize now that the calories were too restricted for the weight I was when I started. Plus the whole attitude of deprivation thrown into the mix.

So, I decided that I was never going to attempt to lose weight again unless I could eat the food I like. Make the recipes I enjoy eating. Eat birthday cake without feeling like a criminal. (WW used to have "legal" and "illegal" foods.) And I never want to eat "substitute food" again. Examples: On the most restrictive WW program I was ever on, if you wanted anything resembling apple pie, you had to use one of your precious two daily slices of bread for the crust and bake cinnamon spiced apples in it. No sugar. There were no artificial sweeteners that you could bake with at that time. Not that I ever was willing to eat them. I can't stand the taste. They had a recipe in their cookbook for a substitute for catsup, because catsup was "illegal". And you couldn't have breakfast food at dinnertime. I vowed, "Never again!"

I did what you're doing over a period of years. My weight stabilized at a high level, but I stopped gaining. I got rid of the "red light food" thing. I learned that I can eat whatever I want. And I don't feel guilty about it. I also learned that I don't have to eat stuff just because it's there. Or because it's a "special treat". If I don't want any, I don't eat any. I learned to my surprise that often I DON'T want any. My family brings stuff in the house and it doesn't tempt me because I don't feel as if I "can't" or "shouldn't" have any. I just eat it if I want to or don't if I don't.

It's real freedom to be able to say, "I'm not hungry." Or "I don't want any." And I NEVER justify myself. I just don't eat it. If anyone is so crass as to comment, I just give them the LOOK! Like--what business is it of yours what I eat or don't eat? Or--Who hired you to be the food police? My family says I'm the master of the LOOK! ;)

Anyway, Mousie, I think what you're doing will be very helpful to you in the long run. Good luck with learning your own body's needs. And we don't care whether you count points or not. Just that you keep in touch, cause we care about you and how you're doing, and do what's best for your journey. :cool:

Enjoy your party! You need a break from the frenzy of finals, the holidays and the rest of your life, too. Take a really relaxing break after your last test. You've earned it.

Things are going fine for me. We went out to dinner, but I had plenty of points. I ended up taking a late, longer walk and late lunch, so I wasn't hungry this afternoon. I skipped my midafternoon mini meal and ended up with a bunch of extra points to use at dinner. So, I'm feeling good about the day.

Hope everyone is having a great day!

Happy turtlin'! :D

Lin
272/237/135 or so

Wow, this book is goooooooooooooood. It's really making me consider things.

Lin, I do feel fortunate that I'm dealing with this now. Right now I'm doing it without talking to anyone about it (except you guys!). So DH doesn't know what I'm thinking about, I'm not ready to talk to him about it yet, and Best Friend just restarted WW, so I haven't talked to her, and parents...well, you get the idea.

Anyway, I've been looking at this in a chronological framework. I read something in the book to the effect that "Emotions will find some way to come out" and for some of us this manifests as eating issues.

I went back up to my parent's house and sifted through pictures. I think of myself as "heavy since I was a kid", but I really wasn't. I was taller, yes. And even as a young child (say, 8 years old) I had muscle definition in my thighs (really quite startling). Then we moved from Hawaii to California, and I was put in a special segregated program for "children of superior intelligence". THAT was when I started to put on weight. Through my teen years I got heavier and heavier. I defined myself by my intelligence, and didn't have much else going on in my life. I didn't date, didn't socialize. I studied, and I was good at it, but that was all I did.

Then the accident, and I moved to Chicago. In Chicago I joined WW, and I also discovered different parts of my personality. I discovered friends and flirting (!) and travelling. At WW I learned how to eat (this was with 123) and I lost about 30 pounds in 4 months. I moved to Minnesota, and maintained there while I explored new gyms, rennaisance festivals, mosaicking, and other things. Moved to London, discovered that, maintained there (with a slight gain, but nothing much).

So what happened? I've been trying to figure THAT out for months. DH and I moved back to California, got married, I started work, started school, was adjusting to being a wife, dealing with DH not working, with spending all the money I got for the accident...etc. But what was happening INSIDE me?

Reading the bit about emotions in this book made me realize that I haven't expressed the frustration, anger, and fear of this year. All along I've been trying to be supportive of DH, encouraging, I've tried to act like it doesn't matter that we've spent the accident compensation money, like I'm not frustrated by the fact that he couldn't even do laundry while I was out at school and work 12 hours a day. Instead of expressing those feelings I've been eating. Can we say "DUH"???

So now I know what's happening, or has been happening. I'm trying not to eat out of emotions now that I know it's happening, and I'm trying to be more upfront with DH, or at least write about them (I didn't even admit to these feelings in my journals, that's how buried they were). I don't expect miracles. But I'm hoping that with time I can find a more productive way to deal with these issues, and reclaim my beautiful healthy body.

Sorry to write such an epic, it's just been all bottled up for the last few days! If you guys want me not to share, just say so.

Mousie, are you kidding?? Talking about this kind of stuff is what makes this group my favorite group on the internet. PLEASE continue to share whatever you like about your journey!

Reading your latest post made me think about my first two years of marriage, when I gained most of the weight I just lost. (Eek!) In my case, we had moved to a town I didn't want to go to (I loved Philly, where we met and married, and had great friends and a great job there), in an apartment I disliked (dark!), with no friends and no job, and DH was in his residency so he was gone much of the time. I spent a lot of time eating and watching Australian soap operas! (We can get Canadian TV here.) I didn't realize I was depressed, because I was numbing myself.

But I did learn how to deal with conflict with DH, and I think that's critical to any good, long-lasting marriage. I think it's great that you're realizing you've been frustrated and occasionally angry with your DH, because trust me -- if you don't start dealing with those feelings now, they *will* sabotage your marriage in the long run. That's one of the reasons they say your first year of marriage is so critical -- that's the time when you develop the patterns you will live by as a married couple. If you've been just smiling and making nice when you're really feeling taken advantage of, you're doing not just yourself a disfavor but also your husband because it'll affect your marriage.

So back to food. Have you ever read any of Geneen Roth's books? She's a proponent of the "eat when you're hungry, stop when you're full" school, which sounds so easy and is yet so hard. (For me, anyway.) I think her breakthrough book was "Breaking Free from Compulsive Eating," or something like that. Her website is: http://www.geneenroth.com/ I think some of what she says would resonante with you, based on what you're writing. She very much focuses on the emotional reasons we eat, and she doesn't advocate diets.

I think there's even a Geneen Roth group here at 3FC. Rothies tend to take a more thoughtful approach to this journey, which I appreciate.

I love these chapter titles from her newest book, which I just saw on her web site:

* Three Ways to Stop a Fat-and-Ugly Attack
* Retail Therapy is as Important as the Other Kind
* Whenever You Feel Fat or Worthless, Ask Yourself Whose Instructions You are Following
*Eat Enough Fat
*Do Not Sneak Food or Feelings
*Be Willing to Lose the Suffering Contest
*When You are Not Hungry, Beauty is Better than Bonbons

:) I may just have to read the book myself at this rate.

Lin, interesting about sometimes just craving red meat. I do that, too, occasionally, since I eat it so rarely. My WW office is right near a McDonald's, though, and I come out of my meeting at either 6 or 7 p.m., so I'm pretty doggone hungry when I smell that stuff. It's hard!

I so agree with you about the whole deprivation thing. (But you knew that. :)) The ONLY thing that made me decide to try WW was the fact that they had no forbidden foods. Amen, sister.

Still warm here, but the temp is dropping. The sun is supposed to come out this afternoon. I ended up just marching in place this a.m. while watching the Today show; didn't feel like popping in a video. I ended up jogging for a bit, which was interesting! I plan to walk downtown again today, so I'll probably get about 45 minutes of exercise in total.

Just made a dental appointment for January. I haven't been in more than 3 years. :eek: I HATE going to the dentist now, since I've become difficult to numb up. Bleah! Now I need to make an appointment to see a regular doctor too, since I haven't been for, gee, more than 3 years. Should get a mammogram too; I've never had one. So much to look forward to.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/199.5/199 by Christmas

Hi, Turtles,

I hate ants more than almost any other insect. They are impossible to get rid of unless you own the property. Our apartment management just sprays around outside and they'll send a pest control guy to spray your kitchen, but they won't try to get rid of the nests. So, no matter what you do, they keep coming back. Does anyone have any suggestions?

Lauren, without the turtles, my similar situation this year to yours might have resulted in a huge weight gain. I appreciate all of you more than you will ever know.

I may have to check out Geneen Roth's books. Look like they might be helpful as I continue on this journey. Thanks for posting the suggestion for all of us.

I tried the eat when you're hungry and stop when you're full approach a couple of different times. I learned to recognize my body's hunger signals and satiety signals, but I didn't lose any weight. So, I use that knowledge to figure out when to eat and when to stop. Usually, though, I end up eating everything I plan because I'm getting a lot better at predicting how much food I need at any one meal.

Have you tried bringing something OP to snack on between your WW meeting and when you get home to eat dinner? It might help forestall that temptation to grab something quickly at McDonald's.
You might try a hard-boiled egg or other low-point protein. Protein seems to help a lot when your blood sugar level has really dropped.

I'm not making the food for the party after all. The hostess's dh hasn't received his paycheck for all of November, so she's going "Safeway sale" this year. We have plans for next year, though.

I'm doing fine today. I haven't taken my walk yet and I may not get one in. But I'll be on my feet most of the day cleaning and baking cookies for the party. So, I'll get in enough activity. This week will most likely be a maintain or even a gain because I'm bloated from PMS. But I've been surprised recently, since I started the supplements, with losses at that time, so we'll see how it goes.

Hope everyone has a great day!

Happy turtlin'! :)

Lin
272/237/135 or so.

Mousie,
Wow, when you go introspective you do a great job! I figure when you figure out that you are great and deserve to be the weight you crave to be, everything will fall in place again. I admire you. I'm very glad you're journaling and getting started on your emotions journey because I know the weight loss will follow. Good for you! Keep letting us know how you're doing because we really care and we're safe and welcoming. You go girl!

Lin,
How can you bake cookies and not eat any? Wow, I am full of admiration for you. Amazing. Enjoy the party and let us know how it goes. I'm with you--I'll eat a lot of poultry or soy and then crave beef. I love prime rib and Outback serves a nice sized portion for not much money, so I like going there. They also have a salad and baked potato that I can count in, so that's a big plus.

Lauren,
Glad to hear you're still exercising. I love that you're so close to the WW scale goal you set. And meeting it at home is fabulous.
It really seems like days ago you set your goal of 199 and the time has gone by, you've made the effort, and you've achieved it.
I am determined to do this too. No more casual, unnoticed eating for me.

Everybody,
Last night I checked in at WW (Lin, my schedule doesn't allow me to always get to WW the same time each week. I usually can make the Wed. five o'clock, but not always. And honestly, if I know I've had a poor week, I do better by weighing in on a Sat. because I can sometimes knock off the fluid weight by then and I don't feel so bad. Where I run into trouble is when I say I'll go Sat. and then I don't. Big mistake.) I had to go to the seven o'clock mtg. and had eaten more than I would have for the five o'clock. I was very pleased because I was down six-tenths of a pound since Sat. morning. Now that's amazing because at that late hour, I would have usually weighed two to three pounds more. So, I'm in the ballpark of the pre-Thanksgiving weight and I'm doing this every day. Now thanks to all of you for the continued encouragement. It's great and helps keep me OP.
You all take care, keep on posting. It's absolutely inspirational.
I told my leader I had thrown away this year and she asked me what my weight would have done without WW--and she told me I learned a lot this year. I plan to go into Jan. lighter than I am now. I do realize that I don't lose quickly, but when I do the right thing, I lose. So onward and downward we all go!j Love you guys.

Judy
234/209/199 soon
;) :cool:

Hello, tortoise beings.

Judy, you have a very wise WW leader. She's right -- you've learned a lot this year. If I hadn't had last year, I don't think I'd still be on the program, much less losing. Good for you sticking with it -- and that's great you saw a loss, too! :) That unconscious eating is what does me in every time. Let's agree not do do any today.

Lin, can we talk ants! Hoo-whee. Have I got ant stories. Mine are almost all from when I lived overseas, though -- and they're along the lines of an Alfred Hitchcock movie. I HATES them, preciousss, I HATES them! There was that time I flushed the toilet, and they must've been living just behind it or something because they came FLOODING out and ended up covering the entire wall -- have you ever seen a black, moving wall before? I've never seen so many ants. Then there were the rivers of ants that crossed roads in Africa -- you couldn't step on them or near them, or they'd cover you within seconds. A friend did step on them, and she had to make a beeline for the river to make them stop biting her. They used our clothesline as one of their pathways -- these were poison ants -- so in order to get your clothes on or off the clothesline, you had to work VERY fast and SNAP your clothes to get the ants off. I got bitten by one, and it felt like fire and made me nauseous.

You probably don't want to hear the story of the ants and the sore on my heel. I'll save that one for Halloween.

Anyway. Here's what we had to do to keep ants from eating our food, sleeping in our beds, etc. First, we used insecticide chalk, which is made of boric acid. It burns their little legs off if they try to cross it. We'd draw lines around our bed legs so they wouldn't climb up, and lines around anything else we wanted them to leave alone. Wear gloves if you use this, and only draw the lines where your cats can't get to it. You can probably get the chalk in Asian groceries. Otherwise, you can buy boric acid and sprinkle it where you want it. (The chalk is easier to manipulate.) I've heard of people using it around stoves and the edges of floors.

Another idea is ant traps, or ant "hotels." We had some success with those here in the U.S. Depends on the brand, though, as to how well they work. When I lived in Philly, we had great success with one brand of roach "hotel" and no success at all with another. (I hate roaches slightly more than I hate ants. And yes, I've seen roaches swarm, too.)

In Asia, we had to keep everything (and I mean *everything*) in sealable plastic containers or in the refrigerator. Even our underwear. (I told you these stories were gross.) We had a woman who would cook for us and then leave our dinner out waiting for us when we got home. We had to work out a system where she put the food on a plate, then put the plate on top of a glass, then put the glass in a bowl filled with water. I actually watched the little buggers make RAFTS out of crumbs and FLOAT across the water to the glass and climb up! Words cannot express how much I loathe ants.

Anyway. Good luck. I really, really sympathize.

I've had major munchies the past couple of days, and I don't think it's hormonal. I've stayed within my points but just barely. I wonder if it's the "I've hit onederland so now I'll relax" syndrome. In any case, I'm doing a little better today, but I'm going to have to really watch this. For one thing, I can't buy any more cottage cheese! I just wolf that stuff down.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/199.5/199 by Christmas

Hi, Turtles,

Judy, I understand about weird schedules. Thanks for clarifying that for me. Congratulations on the weight loss! That's wonderful! You're really doing well and you have a great attitude.

About the cookies--I don't bake them and not eat them. I choose lower point foods and have one. Or use banked points or activity points. This recipe makes large bar cookies for 4 points, but if I cut mine in half, it's a nice size serving for 2 points. So, I eat a 2-point serving at lunch or midafternoon and a 2-point serving after dinner. Two treats for the price of one! Cool, huh?

Your leader gave you some great advice! Losing the weight isn't the only goal we have. Learning how to keep off what we've lost is more important, I think. If we don't learn that, we never get out of the weight loss phase because we get into the yo-yo trap.

I want to share a couple of things that have been on my mind. First, a quote--Al, Dotti's husband (from Dotti's Weight Loss Zone) wrote in a thread yesterday "The single most common reason for failure in weight loss attempts is impatience." He was talking about people quitting because of disappointment with the scale numbers. And he recommended persistence in following the program. It seemed very turtlish, so I thought I'd share it. Something to think about.

The other thing that seems to be on my mind is the concept of "red light foods." Probably because of thinking about the ancient WW idea of "legal" and "illegal" foods. And how the holidays are often full of foods that are on a lot of people's red light lists.

It seems to me that the very concept of having red light foods is conterproductive to successfully losing and maintaining a weight loss. A red light food is something we can't have around without overeating it. Sounds like a self-fulfilling prophecy to me. We have decided, just by putting it on our "red light food list" that we cannot control our response to those foods.

It seems to me that if we can decide that we can't control our response to those certain foods, we can decide that we can control our response to them. All we have to do is work on changing the habit of overeating those foods into a habit of NOT overeating those foods.

The ultimate question is how do we do that? First we have to believe that we can. (See my signature line. :lol: As long as we persist in the notion that there exist foods that we cannot eat within the limits of our program, there will be. If we think there aren't, there won't be.

Then we have to think as carefully about eating our "red light foods" as we do about eating our other foods. People often post that when it's a red light food, they've eaten an astronomical amount "without even realizing what they were doing." That is a key to solving the problem. We have to pay equal attention to all of the foods we eat, no matter whether it's a vegetble or a doughnut.

What do we do when a food is NOT a red light food? We count out the amount we want to eat and subtract the points from our total. What can we do with food that is a red light food? Put the portion we want to eat on a plate and subtract the points from our total. That's simple. We treat all foods the same way when we're following our weight loss/maintenance program. We usually set priorities in choosing which foods to eat so that we are choosing a balanced plan that will retain our good health. But we include all foods that appeal to us in whatever portion size and however often we can without messing up our food plan.

That's a very freeing concept because it allows us to stop a very destructive cycle. The cycle: People will report that they went to a party and there it was or someone in their family ignored the rule about bringing certain foods into the house, which sabotages their efforts. And they overeat that food, because it's on the red light food list and they EXPECT to overeat that food. Then they feel guilty. They get upset about going off program. Many times it leads to further bingeing and soon they're some amount of pounds heavier and starting over, but feeling like a failure instead of a success.

But if there are no red light foods--then there are no foods that we automatically overeat. And that destructive cycle never starts.
I think that was part of the reason WW has abandoned the concept of forbidden foods. Because forbidden foods often lead to a binge or pattern of going off program. With no forbidden foods, we can create a lifestyle we can live with the rest of our lives much more easily.

The other problem with this concept is that it puts the responsibility on the food, instead of on the eater. "It's the food's fault because it's so good I can't control myself." Or "I'm a victim of that food. I cannot handle it. I try, but. . . " Well, Yoda's quote seems to deal with this aspect. Either we do handle it or we do not. We can't "try". And we make the decision, not the food. It's just there.

Anyway, those are the thoughts that have been rattling around in my brain the past couple of days. It's weird, too, because I haven't had a red light food list since I went to an OA meeting around 15-20 years ago. A woman there had a ridiculously long list. (50 or 100 or more foods!) And she was so proud of how long that list was. I got the feeling she was planning to add to it. It seemed so silly to me. And it wasn't helping her to control her obsession; it was fueling it.

That meeting was one of the triggers for my determination never to diet again. And to look at food differently. To see it as nourishment for my body. And to embrace the pleasure of it. I wasn't going to spend the rest of my life being enemies with the food I needed to eat to stay alive.

So, WW points allows me to reach all of my goals. To enjoy preparing food for myself and other people. To have a healthy eating plan and a fun one. And, BTW, you can lose and maintain a healthy weight while doing it. If they hadn't come up with this totally flexible point system, I probably would have stayed at 272 forever, unless I gained weight! :lol: And the point slider for exercise is the best innovation because it shows me better than anything esle the benefits of doing my walks.

Today I'm still OP and my weight is holding steady, which is marvelous since it's PMS water retention week. I didn't manage a walk yesterday, but I'm going on one in about 20 minutes today. The sun is back and it's a great day for a walk, too.

Have a great day, everyone!

Happy turtlin'! :cool:

Lin
272/237/135 or so

Lauren,
Aren't we funny? Here you are thinking about good ole cottage cheese too much! Egads. Anyway--I bet Lin loves the advice you gave her about ants. What miserable experiences you had with them. I sat on a red ant hill in Oklahoma when I was about three years old--and I never forgot that experience either. However, I think your advice is a lot more valuable than mine which would simply be to get into a bathtub fast!
I think you are coming to terms with losing a magnificent amount of weight coupled with the Christmas season. You've been looking forward to this day and weight for a long time. Now that you've done it, what next? So how about taking a few days of good journaling about what you're feeling now, be super careful with your points, and congratulate yourself and remind yourself that you deserve to be this weight. I am so proud of you.

I weighed myself this morning and I've got to stop doing that. I keep looking forward to losing a pound and it's not happening. So, I have to keep on keepin' on and it will happen.

Lin,
Good luck with your ant traps. Not fun. We have ants in the kitchen right now, but I just sprayed them and I think they'll be gone. Our unseasonal weather is causing the problem, I think.

Mousie,
So good hearing from you.

Let's all keep on keepin' on.
Judy
234/209/199 soon;)

Judy, I really like your suggestion of taking some time right now and journaling how I'm feeling about being at this weight while watching my points. I think I'll do just that. Thanks.

I also hear you about needing to stay off the scales between weigh-ins. It's such an icky habit to get into -- as Dotti's husband says, impatience can really get in the way of this whole process.

I think, in fact, that part of my problem right now is just that -- focusing too much on the numbers, too much on the schedule instead of stepping back and recognizing once again that this is a lifetime process. Somehow I want to find the right balance between taking the big picture view (being a good turtle) and yet also focusing and sticking with this so that the weight does come off. I seem to swing between the two a fair amount but only occasionally really find the happy medium ground. At the turtle extreme, I don't lose weight. At the other extreme, I do -- but I can get too much back in diet mode. So I'm going to step back as you recommend and try to find a good balance again.

Lin, about the red-light foods. I think there's much to recommend your theory. Certainly, red-light foods are mostly in our minds, and we can -- theoretically -- change how we think. I think it's wonderful that you no longer have any red-light foods. Good for you.

Some of us, however, just ain't there yet. No, I don't have a list of 100 such foods (that poor woman), but I do have a few. I've learned what they are through trial and error. And, for me, I do well to recognize it and live accordingly. There have been times when I can have certain foods in the house (say, M&Ms) and not overeat them. Those times are generally when life is going calmly along with no particular bumps, when I feel very strong, when I'm the captain of my ship, etc. I'd also say that those times turn on a dime. One week, I can handle having the M&Ms around, just eating a small handful once in a while. The next week, they call my name all day and all night. When that happens, I'm better off just getting rid of them.

My "red-light" foods change over time, too. What bothered me last month might not be a problem this month. That may be because life is going more smoothly, or it might be that I'm more focused -- or it might be that I'm just tired of that particular food. Whatever the reason, I find that when I start to overeat a certain food, or when having a certain food leads me to start overeating in general, then I do better to get it out of the house for a while.

I don't see red-light foods as the same thing as forbidden foods, at least not for me. I still eat ice cream, but I make myself go out to get it. I don't keep it in the house. I do better when I treat cottage cheese that way, too -- just have it at salad bars.

Maybe I should call them "yellow-light" foods -- treat with extreme caution. :)

I'm probably just being too sensitive here, but I read in your post that those of us who have red-light foods are just being too weak. If we really put our minds to it, we'd be masterful enough to have any food around and be in control.

Well, maybe that's true. But for whatever reason, sometimes I'm not strong enough to do that. If I had that kind of 24/7 control of every food, I wouldn't have gotten up to 274 pounds. I don't overeat a red-light food because I *expect* to overeat it -- I overeat it because for mysterious reasons, it calls my name when I'm vulnerable and it doesn't shut up. I'm not blaming the food, as you imply; I'm recognizing that I am more likely to overeat certain things when I'm at all vulnerable, if those foods are around.

And I agree with Yoda's quotation and find it very applicable to red-light foods -- as you say, "either we do handle it or we do not. We can't 'try.'" That's exactly what I do with some foods -- I simply do not handle them. Not in the house, anyway. Because I know that trying to do so will open me up to a level of temptation that would be unwise for me. Again, good for you that you're able to master all foods and eat them in moderation.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/199.5/199 by Christmas (home scales, a.m.)

Lauren, philosophically speaking, isn't acknowledging that your best method of dealing with them is not having them in the house a WAY of handling them? I mean, it's the old "not making a decision is making a decision" thing. So, okay, you ARE dealing with them, and you're dealing with them the best way for you. Works for me.

An interesting thought, too: in My Book (yeah, I'm gonna refer to it a lot, I already have!) it says something to the effect that legalizing all foods does NOT mean you have to eat junk all day. If you want a vegetable, eat a vegetable. No foods are bad. You can chose not to have some foods because you don't like what they do to you, but that's an individual thing. No food in itself is inherently bad, it's just how it interacts with individuals. It's splitting hairs maybe, but it's a more comfortable way of looking at it. I choose not to have certain foods because of what they do to me. That doesn't mean the food itself is bad, I just don't like the results I get. Mentally, a more comfortable thought. For me at least.

I'm being very deep and introspective right now, thinking a lot about food and my relationship with it, and things that have happened in the last year. I'm being very gentle with myself, right now. Mentally saying nice things, journalling a lot, giving myself what I need when I realize I need it. I've let myself take naps instead of giving myself sugary food to stay awake. Taken a bath when I needed to be warm, instead of eating something warm/hot. Played my piano QUITE forcefully when I was angry, instead of eating the emotion away. And I've also told myself it's okay when I realize I'm munching out of emotional pain/stress, or that it's okay if that's the only way I can come up with to help myself.

You know what? It's working! I feel like I can trust myself a bit more--weird idea, but true--and I feel much less ashamed and desperate. Now, I'm faaaaaaaaaaar from okay, and this is faaaaaaaar from being all the answer, but I'm feeling like I'm coming out of hiding, emotionally speaking. I've been hurting a lot, this year, and acknowledging it and telling myself it's okay to be hurt and not be strong is soothing to me. I've even had a day (today) of hard but necessary conversations with DH, and we've worked some important things out. Mostly to the effect that he doesn't expect me to give up ME because I'm now a part of US. I'm going to try to be me again. See if I can coax me out of hiding.

Anyway! Wow, that was deep. Time for Christmas shopping--Target here I come!

I love you guys!
Judy
234/209/199soon;)

I just have to grin at you, Judy. :)

I'm being mentally quite with myself, and trying to be very accepting. I hadn't realized how mean I was being to myself, and right now I feel like a small abused child inside. I'm trying to be careful and tender with myself.

Part of me would like to try 123 again, because I WOULD like to be thinner than I am right now, and I must admit I'm impatient for the process to begin. The other part of me, though, is panicking at the thought of ANY sort of rules. Once I have the thought "How many Points is this?" I immediately get "Oh but that only leaves X Points for later" "But is it a protein? Can I count it as a veggie? How many vegetables have I had today? I shouldn't eat anything sugary, that's not a good way to spend Points..." etc. So for right now I'm really striving to just eat what I want, and eat just as much as my body needs. I know what I'm eating--waffles with applesauce, bagel pizza bites--but if I want it, I have it, I don't focus on "counting" it.

Before I eat anything, I have to know I'm hungry. Obviously, but it keeps me away from the "it's lunchtime gotta eat" thing. So once I feel hungry, I go through a mental litany with myself. Do I want something hot or cold? Smooth or crunchy? Needs utensils or finger foods? Solid or liquid? This continues until I narrow down what I'm wanting, and then I try to make it happen. Hence the waffles with applesauce this morning--I wanted apple pancakes and couldn't make that happen.

I've been watching very closely, and I've noticed a couple of times that when I can pinpoint what I want, and I DON'T get it for one reason or another, I eat waaaaay past full of the thing I DO end up eating. It's hard for me to let myself be hungry for long, but I'm trying to at least hold on until I get what I'm craving.

I've heard people say this before but I never realized how true it is: even if you're craving something "bad", just a couple bites are enough. Most of my meals, now, have parts left over. Half a quesadilla (I live for mexican food), the bread from a sandwich, the bread part of a piece of pizza (I only wanted the toppings and the cheese and the sauce)--I'm only eating the things that really please me.

Now, I don't know what my weight is doing, and I don't want to know. I'm frankly afraid of the scale. I feel much more sane and much more stable NOT knowing, and trying to just take care of myself. I have to go to the doctor to get a prescription refill, and I'll be weighed there, and I'm postponing that as long as possible. I know my clothes still fit like usual. Right now, that's about all I can handle.

In the back of my mind, I'm toying with the idea of going to a counselor to talk about some of these issues. I think my issue right now is that I don't know how to handle my emotions, and the glut of emotions this year got eaten down. I would like to find someone to teach me to work through my emotions, not to teach me how to eat. But then, that's what an eating disorder is, isn't it? Its not the food per se, it's the other things in your life that are being expressed through food. Once I'm ready to talk about this with my husband, I will talk to him about finding a counselor. Right now I'm keeping it to myself, while I'm feeling fragile.

Got a lot to do today, coming up on finals (next week!) and I have a piano piece I MUST practice. See you all later.

I love this group too, Judy. :) You all always challenge me and make me think about things in a way that no other WW-related group does. I so appreciate that. Once again, Lin, thanks for starting the Turtles. And thanks to everyone for making it such a thought-provoking and helpful place to be.

I *am* hormonal, as it turns out. Seems like PMS gets longer for me as I get older, starting now with ovulation. So my hair trigger is hairier than usual. That's probably why I was so sensitive the other day, Lin. You made some good points.

Mousie, wow, you're definitely working through some good stuff right now. Good for you. Sounds like you're really doing what you need to do to be healthy. And if your clothes fit, where's the worry? Sometimes we need to just put the scale away and, as you say, learn to trust ourselves. You sure sound like Geneen Roth right now! :)

Last night I went to a Christmas party, and guess what the hostess had front and center? Mint M&Ms!!! :lol: I had to laugh, after our discussion here. So I thought -- OK, I can handle this. I had a small handful, maybe 8 or 10. Then I physcially removed myself from their vicinity. So what happens, but they start following me around!! I kid you not! When I moved out to the dining room, the hostess put them on the dining room table! When I moved to the living room, she put them on the coffee table! I ended up not having any more of them, and once she realized that I didn't want them around (I crossed my fingers at them, like one would make a sign against a vampire. Fortunately, she thought it was funny), she moved them out of reach. I chuckled the whole evening about it.

I noticed, too, that most everyone else was *also* having a tough time with the M&Ms -- eating handfuls of them and saying things like "I can't stop eating these!" I think they must put some secret chemical in them, like HEROIN or something. :lol: By the time we left, they were almost gone! And I found that so long as I couldn't see them, they didn't bother me. I just enjoyed the company.

Funnily enough, the hostess gave us a box of See's chocolates as a gift. We have them here at home, along with three jars of dark chocolate turtles, and none of them are calling my name. Go figure. But I'm only going to tempt fate so far; the turtles are going to work with my husband this week. I'll have one on Christmas eve. :)

Anyway, I worked out this morning in spite of a sore toe (I think it's sore because one of the cats laid wrong on it while I was sleeping), and I've been within points, barely. I doubt I'll see a loss this week, may even see a gain thanks to the hormones, but I can live with it.

I'm at the place where people are finally really noticing my weight loss -- it's like it's hitting them all at once. It's a nice feeling, a little uncomfortable, but nice.

Onward and downward,

Lauren
274/199.5/199 by Christmas

Hi, Turtles,

This discussion is so cool! See what happens when I can't get online for a couple of days? But--it's also really long, so I"ll start a new thread and post my comments there.

Lin