I actually think that IS true... too much protein (and fat) can lead to obesity.

What I've been discovering from the research I've been doing is that the problem isn't excessive protein (and fat) by themselves, it's protein and fat in the presence of too many carbohydrates. Most of the studies that malign fat and protein never document or even address how much carb their study participants were eating.

Here's a crude example to try and illustrate the idea:

Fire can destroy, and it can also be of benefit. The pilot light on a furnace is there so that the furnace can operate properly and keep the occupants warm. Hearing that "the pilot light is on" shouldn't be alarming in and of itself. However, given the information that the house is being fumigated under a tent (the gases are flammable), the information that the pilot light is on would be horrifying!

Fire by itself isn't harmful or helpful. Fire in the presence of large quantities of flammable gas is an extremely dangerous situation. Fire in the presence of the right components (small gas supply, in a contained way) can be very beneficial.

Similarly, protein (and fat) by themselves aren't harmful or helpful. Lots of protein--in the presence of large quantities of carbohydrate--correlates to very high risk of diabetes, heart disease, hypertension, and obesity. The part that gets missed is that lots of protein--in the presence of limited quantities of carboydrate--is beneficial... promoting muscle growth, for one.

I hope I'm not simply being argumentative. My passion on this subject comes from the information I've piled into my head over the years. (I'm sort of a science & information vacuum.)

My father is very obese, his total cholesterol / HDL is 5.1 (at risk for the disease cluster mentioned above). The only time he ever lost weight was on a restricted carbohydrate diet. Sadly, he doesn't subscribe to the saying, "Nothing tastes as good as thin feels."

FWIW, I've been reading up, getting a better understanding of the issues surrounding high levels of ketones in the blood and whether this risks kidney damage. I'll report back when I've done a bit more research.

--- added 3/21/02 ---

First, a correction of a previous post. Switching to a low carb diet can double one's protein intake or more. I was wrong!

Second, some information. Blood ketone levels are monitored and controlled by the body just like it regulates blood glucose and pH levels. A healthy person will suffer not in the slightest from ketones in the blood. (Alcoholics, uncontrolled diabetics, and people on prolonged fasts may have ketones beyond the normal range.) It is highly unlikely that anyone besides insulin-dependent diabetics will build up large amounts of ketones.

Source: Is Ketosis Dangerous?
(I know it's from the website run by the devil himself but he lists references! I see a lot of unsupported assertions in various pages on the web, and the ones with references to scholarly works and specific studies always seem to be the most accurate.)

I am not doing WW at this time, although I have contemplated it in the past. I am doing another program which I will not mention because I don't want to start WWIII around here.

First of all, congratulations to anyone and everyone who takes themselves in hand and decides to do something about their weight. Some may be dieting for a short while, some may truly make a lifestyle change. It's a hard thing to do, and I applaud us all.

Regarding "pushers" I have a lot of experience with this issue. I know people to whom WW is like the word of God, and they will try anything and everything to degrade you if you decide to use another plan. There are people who are doing my particular plan who are just as obvious about their beliefs.

It's hard enough to deprive yourself of what you crave and love the most (FOOD, and large quantities of it, might I add) and get through your day smiling. You shouldn't have to defend yourself to well-meaning but maybe misinformed people.

If your doctor is okay with your plan, TRULY okay with it, then do it as well as you can! Good luck to us all, I say! Let the pounds fall where they may!

I am sorry, I couldn't let this one go by. I don't post often but feel there is a need here. I am sorry in advance if I offend anyone.

I have a degenerative kidney disease called membraneous Glumerulonephritis. I also need to lose a significant amount of weight. (Actually I needed to lose this weight before I was diagnosed with the kidney disease). My kidney specialist detailed the plans I could use WW was listed as the first and I am actually joining tonight. He also listed the American Heart Association general guidelines as well as a couple of others. I was the one who brought up Atkins because I had friends who had lost (and then regained) a large amount of weight and I thought he was going to have a stroke. He said that adding that much fat and protein in high concentrations without an equal number of carbs to balance was a kidney nightmare. The filters in the kidneys (that is what is degenerating on me) are small and clog easily and high fat just makes it worse (greasy cheeseburgers???).

Everyone has the right to choose the plan they want. That is a wonderful thing. However, we should be informed as to the pros and cons of every plan that we consider. Calmly, rationally and armed with knowledge.

Just my 2 cents. Sorry this ended up being so long!!

Elaine

Elaine - I have been following this thread off and on while it has been going on. I don't have an opinion one way or another about any of the diets, but some of the information that has been cited is interesting. I DO know, however, that I have lost 60 pounds since last July following the WW diet. I congratulate you on your decision to lose the extra pounds that you are carrying. AND, you are right. Follow the plan that is most comfortable for you. A plan that will make you feel like you are not depriving yourself of the things that you like, but most of all keep in mind your own individual medical needs. My philosophy is that losing weight is a journey to becoming healthy, with being thin as a bonus.

Good luck on this journey. Take care.

Goodforme, good luck with your plan! And thanks for not mentioning which one it is; wish I'd done the same. I should never have mentioned which plan was involved, when starting this thread, as that was immaterial. Different plans work for different people. I was just wondering about how people deal with zealots or pushers (whatever plan they're on, even, as you mention, ww). But often threads take on a life of their own, and hopefully the discussion has helped and/or interested people more than it has hurt anyone's feelings.

Mousie, Bereft, and Kelly, thanks for the info on nutrition; afraid it's all over my head, though, as I'm not very scientifically-minded. I know it's generated a lot of interest, though.

Bereft, I sure hope your father's health improves! I know how hard that is for you, from my own experiences. Sometimes, though, things take a turn for the better when you least expect it! Hope that's the case for your dad.

Sweet tooth, wow, congrats on the sixty pounds lost! That's a wonderful achievement. I like your philosophy; this whole process is definitely a journey to better health. And isn't it great that there are so many of us here on the boards, ready to help each other along the way!?

Elaine, am sending good thoughts your way and wishing you the best on your weight loss journey.

Tato, I agree, to each his own! And how terrific that your brother is doing so well with his exercise and weight loss plan. I know you must be very happy for him (as my sisters were for me).

So thanks to everyone who responded; I wish you the very best in your journey to better health!

Regards,
Jan

Yes i am a greasey cheeseburger eater, but I have to say that my philosophy is the same as yours.

I agree with GFM that there are pushers from both ends many people have told me that i am going to die from cholesterol and heat disease (total chol 176 tri's 98, hdl 89, and ldl 68) It is dramatically down from when i was eating regular. if you can call it regular. I do not hink that this will killl me.

BUT I am NOT going to tell anybody how to eat no matter who they are or how heavy they are. well actualy I am. I have started a weight loss business for support (it has not gone anywehre yet) But my focus is on the person and making healthy choices for them. ANd support and follow through. The ONLY way to loose weight is to have either a great determination (how did you get this big in the first place ifyou are that determined) or great support to your given choice of diets. I choose low carb, but i also realize that it is not for everyone. not everybody can make that life changes, just becasue it works for me it is not going to work for you, that is the wonder of people that we are all different ad we crave on our individuality. When people push someting on me i do not want to hear i turn them out so fast it is not funny. I am sorry that some people are pushing their chosen woe on you, as i would not push it on some one else. I also will say that those people doing the low carv woe and are eating so much fats, they may be feeling fine but there is actually a limit of how much you should eat. if they take in 5000 cals in food there is no rational reason they are not gaining. I find that i do have to cut the fat if i want to lose. I watch my calories, fat and carbs.

You want to know the kicker??? As stated i am a confirmed low carber I need to form a diet plan for people to do that is a low FAT. so I thought that you girls would get a kick out of that. A low carber pushing low fat!!!!