Questions, Questions: Designing a training program
 

Hi guys,

With the help of the “Body Sculpting Bible” and the internet in general, I’m trying to put together a strength training routine for myself. I’ve decided on a 4 day split: Day 1. Legs; Day 2. Shoulders, Lower Back, Abs; Day 3. Back, Biceps; Day 4. Chest, Triceps.

I’d really appreciate feedback on the program I’m trying to work out. I’m a bit uncertain about the proper relationship between compound and isolation exercises—I’m not sure how much of the latter is really necessary. As I’m working out the program in pieces, and because I don’t want to overwhelm anyone with thousands of questions, I’d like to post one Split at a time to get some feedback. You can assume that I’m going to shoot for 3 sets of 10-12 reps on everything.

Once again, thanks sooooooooo much for everyone’s help. Weight training is a mysterious universe :dizzy:

So, Day 1. Legs.

Wall Squats
Leg Press
• Is there any reason to do two compound quad exercises? Would I be fine skipping the leg press and focusing on squats?
Leg Extension
• Do I want to do the leg extension as well as the squats and maybe the leg press? Is that overkill? Note: I have really dodgy knees, so I am interested in strengthening my quads as much as possible. Even wall squats leave me with sore knees for days afterwards.

Seated Hamstring Curls OR Stiff Legged Deadlift
• Anyone have an opinion as to which of these is better? My guess is that the deadlift is better (because it is compound) but I haven’t actually tried it yet. My hammies are reasonably strong, but my lower back is pretty weak.

Standing Calf Raise
• Is this really necessary? I’m pretty ambivalent about calf raises. My calves are reasonably muscular by nature and I really don’t want big calves...


Thanks!!!

Impossible to give an opinion on your overall program and even this particular day without knowing at least your goals, availability of equipment, and any physical limitations (injuries, etc).

Regardless of answers to those questions, I can say that you have 3 Quad dominant exercises and only one hip dominant exercise. You really should balance that out.

As for the calf raises, unless you are a bodybuilder or your calves are a severely lagging bodypart, you are probably working them sufficiently throughout your workout. They won't hurt you though. Personally, I'd leave them out.

Also, of the 5 non-calf exercises, you are sitting for three of them. If you opted for the hamstring curls over the SLDL's then you wouldn't even be standing on your legs for 75% of your Leg workout! My opinion, scrap the machines and get up on your legs. Depending upon your skill level, I might even start some unilateral work. When we are walking and moving around, we spend the majority of our time on one-leg. Let's train the body the way it was designed to be used.

Depending upon your equipment availability, my choice would be:

1.A Squat variation
2. A deadlift variation or good mornings
3. a one-legged box squat, 1-legged wall squat, or bulgarian split squat
4. one-legged SLDL or lateral lunge

Hey Depalma,

Thanks for the feedback. My general goals are basically to replace some fat with muscle so as to 'tone up' and to be a calorie-burning machine. I just want to look good and eat more. :)

My gym basically has all the equipment one might desire, so that's no problem. And my only physical limitation is that I have really weak knees--I *definitely* cannot do a one-legged wall squat! As I said, I did wall squats (with the ball) for the first time last week, and my knees were sore and, um, delicate for days. Strengthening my quads is a priority, but I need to be careful not to hurt my knees.

I do see what you're saying about all the sitting down though--it does seem a bit silly. Perhaps today will be the day where I try the deadlifts! I don't know what you mean by 'hip dominant', or by 'unilateral work'.

The only other info that may or may not be helpful is that my cardio of choice these days is running on the treadmill, usually for about 35 minutes 5x a week.

Thanks!

Since your goal is to become a "calorie-burning machine", I would definitely pass on the calf raises then. If you feel that shortens the workout too much, then you can always throw in another set of wall-squats.

And if calorie burning is a priority, we definitely want to get up on our feet more.

With your knees being a weak spot right now, the wall-squats are a good choice. This will give you some stability and take some of the stress of your knees. If it is just a case of strengthening the surrounding muscles, then you will be able to progress later pain free. Can you do lateral lunges pain free?

To replace the one-legged squats, I would try step ups. This will also be a great calorie burner. Start with 2 risers and progress up to 3 then 4, and then progres up in weights with the dumbells. These really shouldn't hurt your knees. If they do, then maybe we will have to resort to the leg press machine, but if you do resort to the leg press machine, try it one-legged. No, you won't move as much weight as you would with two legs and that kind of bums some people out since the leg press machine is usually the machine they get to use the most weight on and it strokes the ego a bit, but ego should be left at the door.

Also, since your goal is to become a calorie burning machine, I would favor, 3 or 4 total body workouts per week on an every other day basis (2 days off in a row once if you are doing 3). The more muscles you can work in any one session and the more times you can work the larger muscles of the lower body, the better when raising the metabolism (both during the workout and EPOC) is the goal. However, I realize that splits are sexy and if you want to train that way, I'm not going to tell you not to. If you like splits and doing a split is going to get you in the gym consistently, then that is what is best for you.

Also, since becoming a calorie burning machine is what we are shooting for here, you may want to play with the rest time between sets and/or consider some supersets.

The only thing I'd add to depalma's excellent advice, is that if your knees are your weak point, QUIT RUNNING on the treadmill. You can get as good or better a cardiovascular workout using an elliptical or a cross-trainer with no impact on your knees. Running several days a week may be your big problem, and you may find that once you stop the pounding, you can do squats and lunges!

Mel

Hi guys,

Thanks for the advice!

Meg suggested to me the other day that I try splits because I complained that when I do my upper body workouts, I crap out by the time I get to the end--so if I save bicep curls, for example, for last, I can't finish all the sets and reps that I would be able to finish if I had done them earlier in my workout. That, and my legs seem to need more than a day or two off in between sessions.

Mel, I hear what you're saying about the running, but I've only just started in the last two weeks. I used to always do the elliptical, then I switched to walk/runs on the treadmill, and now I'm just running. I'm actually loving it. I find that my knees can take it so long as I don't run on an incline. What I should probably do is not run before my leg workout. I could do the elliptical that day, or I could do my cardio after my training instead of before.

So as far as my program goes, for legs I'll do:
Wall Squats
Deadlifts
Lunges

and maybe step ups.

Sound good?

My gym is closed today for the holiday, but the Body Sculpting Bible came with a dvd showing proper form for tons of the exercises (cool, no?), so perhaps I'll take the day to learn to do deadlifts and lunges so that I can execute them flawlessly at the gym this week. :)

Thanks so much for your help!

[QUOTE=baffled111;1710894]Hi guys,



I would bet the need for a longer recovery time was probably the main factor in that advice and if you need more recovery time, full body or upper/body workouts would not appear to be a viable option at this time. However, I still feel these workouts are better suited for your stated goal and if you feel that your recovery ability improves in the future, you may want to go back to it. Perhaps transition slowly by going to a push-pull-legs split first.

As for the curl issue, if you were doing a small muscle isolation exercise like bicep curls as part of an upper body workout, then either you were doing sacrificing some compound movements (contrary to your goal of becoming a calorie burning machine) or were making your workouts way too long in an effort to try to work each and every muscle in your upper body which is not necessary for your goal but may be counterproductive. Chin-ups (assisted if you need) and heavy rowing movements will give your biceps all the work they can handle and will work a whole host of other (and bigger) muscles in the process thus burning a LOT more calories both during and after your workout.


Sounds good. Dont' forget to change up the exercises/variations or rep/set schemes occassionally to prevent the body from full adapting to your workout.

Next question. What method are you planning to use to progress in weight?

Mel and Depalma both gave you some great advice. For me personally I used to hate lower body workouts because I would never see results. I carry all my weight in my thighs and butt. The last time I started working out I focused on lower body because I knew that was where I needed the most work and I came to LOVE deadlifts. As for unilateral exercises you can do a single leg deadlift that shouldn't be too hard on your knees. It takes some balance and getting used to so you may want to get good at the two legged deadlift. I have a problem with my knees also. I really like the stepups because I know they are great for my butt but when I am heavy they bother my knees a bit. So I do the lunges (which I hate!) I read in another thread on here about some great exercises if you have weak knees. One of them was the wall squat (I just can't get that one down right).
I also do a full body workout just because I don't have that many exercises for each muscle and my workouts seem too short if I only do a split.

Hmmm. I see what you're saying. Here's my confusion then. I've been trying to put together my shoulder day exercises, and I've narrowed it down to about 4; I imagine that there are probably 4 or 5 different exercises needed to hit each muscle group properly. Given that I'll want to work shoulders, back, arms and chest, won't doing all the upper body stuff in one day mean that I have to spend hours and hours in the gym every other day? One of the reasons splits appeal to me is that I can do my 30 minutes of cardio, do 30 minutes of weight training and be on my way. I think 60 minutes a day is plenty to spend in the gym, no? Would your suggestion be rather to find ONE really good compound push and one pull exercise for each muscle group, rather than 4 or 5 worked in splits?

Gosh this is confusing!!! Thank you so much for your advice and patience. :)

Now you're really trying to complicate matters for me! :dizzy: I didn't realize I needed a method! My tendency is to be a bit loosey-goosey with it--just adding weight every couple of weeks and seeing how I go. (Another reason I became dissatisfied with my upper/lower split was that I seemed to be making NO progress with increasing my upper body weights. I have been using 10lb dumbbells for my bicep curls for my entire life. I tried to go up to 12.5 last week and failed at the beginning of the second set.--But I will be rethinking my arm exercises later in the week as I try to put together my program. I'll find myself some good compound ones.)

So what do you suggest?

And, warning! Don't use up all your patience for helping me before I post my tentative program for shoulders, back, arms and chest! It is quite clear to me that I can't sort all this out by myself :)

Thank you, thank you, thank you!

This type of body part obsession is not necessary at all unless you are a body builder or figure competitor. For the general population, especially those that are trying just for fat loss or general fitness, I think you are better off training movements not muscles.

I don't want you spending forever in the gym either! In fact, after an hour of exercises, your levels of cortisol, a catabolic, muscle-wasting hormone rises and your extra efforts will be blunted at best and counterproductive at worst.

My suggestion for an upper body workout?

30-40 reps of vertical pushing
30-40 reps of vertical pulling
30-40 reps of horizontal pushing
30-40 reps of horizontal pulling

You can split these 30-40 reps into 3x10 of 1 exercise of 2x10 of 2 exercises or 2x10 of one and 1x10 of another if you'd like.

If you want to reduce time or give your muscles more recovery time, superset a pushing exercise with a pulling exercise, preferably alternate planes as well.

And for variety and combat my body's adaptive capacity, I would alternate 2 different upper body workouts.

Workout 1.

A1. Bench Press
A2. Pullups

B1. DB Military Press
B2. Bent Over Row

Workout 2.

A1. DB Decline Bench Press
A2. Lat Pulldowns

B1. Incline Bench Press (this can be either a vertical or horizontal push. I like to use it as a vertical push since my shoulders don't agree with too much overhead pressing)
B2. One arm DB Row

With these workouts, you are getting plenty of work for your shoulders, chest, back, and arms. Want to emphasize the biceps some more? Do the rows and pulls with a supinated grip. Want to hit the triceps more? Do the bench press with a close grip. These workouts will also get you out of the gym pretty fast and give you a mixture of bilateral (2-arm) and unilateral (1-arm) work.




Sorry. Don't want to confuse you. However, I do feel that having a plan of progression is very important. There are various methods but I'd probably start you out with a "2 for 2" method. What you are going to use as your determinant that you are ready for the next weight is to get 2 extra reps on your last set for 2 consecutive workouts. If you are doing 3x10, you are going to do 10 reps on the first two sets (even if you feel you can do more, stop at 10). On the third set, go to failure. If you can do 12 reps or more for 2 consecutive workouts, then you are ready to move to the next level. For some this may seem too conservative. However, when starting a new training program, it is better to be conservative early as the neuromuscular strength gains might outpace the rest of the body. In other words, you might now be strong enough to lift a higher weight, but your tendons and ligaments might not yet be.


I only hope this helps!

I just wanted to say that I'm learning a lot from this thread as a lurker! Thanks everyone! :)

Hey Baff, I've enjoyed this thread just like Wyellen. I wanted to confuse you even more by saying, since you like books, try to find the Body for Life for Women by Pam Peeke. That book recommends 2 exercises per body part and has gotten my ubwo down to 1 hour with a 45 min workout and 15 mins stretching. That's my long day. My lbwo is down to 25-30 mins and I do the same leg workouts as you. WOuld probably make sense to move my bis and tris to lbwo day to make both days more consistent. Anyway, the BFL book gives you a methodology for increasing your weights that you might be interested in - via a method of decreasing reps of increasing weight in sets of 3 (ex: 12 on 8#, 10 on 10#, final 8 on 12.5#). Then it's fairly easy to tell when to go up - when your third set is easily doable. Just an alternative suggestion for you. She also recommends 2 exercises per body part.

Question for Depalma & Mel, so doing a full body w/o every other day, assuming I can get the time, is ok? I thought I would need a min of 72 hrs of recovery time, but maybe I'm just being too lax and I should try a shorter window? Interesting.......

I still do full body workouts, and while I don't ALWAYS do them every other day, I often do. If I work out 3x/week, at least one of those recovery times is only 48 hours. From what I've read, that's not unusual (2 day recovery for full body).

Though, I fully admit I am still learning a lot about lifting!

For most people, 48 hours should be sufficient recovery time. This is an individual thing, however, so you need to monitor your recovery and see what works best for you.

Some things to ask yourself to see if you are recovering sufficiently:

1. Has my progress in the gym plateaud or even regressed? If yes, you may not be giving yourself enough time to recover. The only other reasons I can think of for this to happen would be that you are feeling sick or that you have stuck with the same workout too long and the body has fully adapted to the workout.

2. Do you have the same enthusiasm for your workouts as before? Now, if you have never really liked working out, then this is not a good gauge, but if you have always been gung ho and recently you have been starting to dread going to the gym, you can put a check in the "possible overtraining" column.

3. Are you feeling rundown and physically exhausted? Not a sure sign of overtraining but if the checks in the "possible overtraining" column are starting to add up, then the circumstantial evidence is starting to add up.

4. Physical measurements. I have a portable electronic device that takes my blood pressure and resting heart rate. I take it every morning. If the blood pressure and resting heart rate has risen substantially above normal levels and I can't think of another reason to explain this rise, I put another check in the "possible overtraining" column.

If I only have one of the symptoms, I basically ignore it. If I have 2 of the symptoms, I'll take an extra rest day or two and continue back to what I was doing. If I have 3 or 4 checks in the possible overtraining column, I am rethinking my entire program entirely as it is quite likely that I am not recovering properly with what I am doing now.

If you have none of the symptoms, you likely are recovering fine and can very possibly be doing more. Find the highest level of workouts that your body can handle AND that is still enjoyable for you.

These are just the symptoms that I know of and use, I'm sure Mel can chime in with other signs of possible overtraining.

One more thing about exercise frequency. No matter if I'm doing Total Body, Upper/Lower or other splits, I try to keep the overall volume for about the same. If I am splitting it down, I can go a little higher for each movement because I have a bit extra recovery time but my total reps for a workout is always in the 120-180 rep range regardless if I am doing sets of 3x10 or am lifting heavier and doing 5x5 or 6x5 or 9x3. Although, the heavier I lift, the closer I am to the 120 (an with longer rest periods) and the lighter I lift, the closer I am to the 180 side.

For instance in the sample upper body workout I gave above, I would be doing 30-40 reps of each movement. I would do this twice over an 8 day period, for a total of 60-80 reps for each movement.

Now, if I was doing a total body workout, I might do:
20-30 reps of vertical pushing
20-30 reps of vertical pulling
20-30 reps of horizontal pushing
20-30 reps of horizontal pulling
20-30 reps of a quad dominant movement
20-30 reps of a hip dominant movement
20-30 reps of a unilateral quad dominant movement
20-30 reps of a unilateral hip dominant movement

I would do these 3 days per week, so my total number of reps on the same upper body movements are 60-90 reps. Pretty much the same.

If I were going to split the workouts strictly by movement and go to a push-pull legs split.

I would do something like this on my "push":
60-90 reps of horizonal pushing
60-90 reps of vertical pushing

Some advantages to full body workouts:
1. Get to work more muscles each workout.
2. I can work the largest muscles of the body each workout. I GET TO SQUAT 3 TIMES A WEEK!
3. My body gets to practice the movements on a regular basis. It learns quicker and the neuromuscular gains as well as movement coordination is greater.
4. Can build a program and rotate exercises without a large database of exercises to master.


Some disadvantages:
1. Little time for isolation.
2. Because of less recovery time, you need to keep your volume slightly lower than you would if you were doing a 4 or 5 day split.

Some advantages to splits.
1. More time to recover each muscle group between workouts.
2. Because of 1, can go with slightly higher overall volume.
3. Plenty of room to throw in some isolation exercises.

Some disadvantages:
1. Work only a specific movement pattern or muscle group each workout. Fewer overall muscles worked.
2. My body only gets to practice this movement once or twice per week.
3. Need to learn and master a larger body of exercises to keep my programs fresh and keep my body from adapting fully to the program.
4. I'm giving less emphasis to the larger muscles and more to the smaller muscles.

I'm sure you can think of other pros/cons of each and your list will surely be different than mine.

However, as you can see, in my opinion, based on my personal list. Full body workouts rock for most people. Splits, however, are a better option for those who need more recovery time, bodybuilders who need to work each and every body part, those who need to bring up a certain lagging body part or those that just flat out enjoy training that way. Never underestimate the last factor. Even if it seems that full body is better suited for someone's goals if they will only go to the gym if they are doing a split then a split is best for them.