@ggbsy: Yes! That's it, I also remember seeing an experiment on TV that kind of followed that premise of the movie. So I might be blending all the events together but I do remember that movie now. Thanks!

Originally Posted by lazylioness:
So now, we have people that make a living putting blame on other people. It is McDonald's fault that we burn ourselves on coffee because we cannot possibly know on our own that it is hot. McDonald's makes us fat, not the fact that we eat it twice a day and sit around for 18 hours at work, in the car or in front of the TV, soda is at fault for our obesity, not the fact that we only drink soda. It is the fault of the food companies because they do not label things clear enough that the jumbo size Kit Kat may not be a good idea and contains fat. It is the hair dryer companies fault that someone electrocuted themselves while using it in the shower. It is the video game and entertainment industries fault that our kids have ADHD and are prone to violence.

I agree with you that personal responsibility often seems to get lost in the equation but I think the issue of food addiction or other food disorders is far more complex than the examples you've listed.

Originally Posted by JohnP:
I agree with you that personal responsibility often seems to get lost in the equation but I think the issue of food addiction or other food disorders is far more complex than the examples you've listed.

Really? I am not sure what you experience, but I don't find in my experience many people know about corn subsidies. And they certainly don't know, the vast majority, we set prices for sugar and tariff the heck out of imports to the point where sugar is more expensive in the US than anywhere else.

A lot of people don't know about food islands. They certainly haven't watched the Men Who Made Us Fat or similar stuff.

What I see day in and day out and all the time everywhere is people blaming individuals. A few isolated law suits or even many law suits doesn't mean in everyday society people aren't blaming individuals. I don't often hear look at that person McDonalds sure made them fat. Do you? What I hear is look at that fat slob or some such.

It is a complex issue. Personally it helped me as an individual to recognize all the forces making it easy to be unhealthy and overweight. That was me. It was empowering as an individual to know hey that was out there. On two levels. It made me want to 'stick it' to the Man or whatever you want to call it. Added emphasis for me to get healthy. And two it helped vastly for me to know it just wasn't me. There was billions and billions of dollars being poured into making it extremely easy to be fat. And the USDA recommendations were not, for me, healthy recommendations. Not horrible, parts are great, but not overall.

But on a daily basis people just talking, they are overwhelmingly blaming individuals. Unless I have lived in completely non-representative cities and social environments individuals are not getting off any hook in society. Not in person to person interactions.

I don't think JohnP was responding to your post....

Originally Posted by :
Originally Posted by lazylioness
So now, we have people that make a living putting blame on other people. It is McDonald's fault that we burn ourselves on coffee because we cannot possibly know on our own that it is hot. McDonald's makes us fat, not the fact that we eat it twice a day and sit around for 18 hours at work, in the car or in front of the TV, soda is at fault for our obesity, not the fact that we only drink soda. It is the fault of the food companies because they do not label things clear enough that the jumbo size Kit Kat may not be a good idea and contains fat. It is the hair dryer companies fault that someone electrocuted themselves while using it in the shower. It is the video game and entertainment industries fault that our kids have ADHD and are prone to violence.

We all have personally responsibility, that is for sure. I have an eating disorder that I didn't choose to have, but it is definitely my responsibility to manage it.

I'm sure your thin friend does, in fact, work hard to be thin. Good for her, it is no easy task for most people. But her personal experience doesn't mean she's an expert. She's an expert only in her experience. I'm an expert only in mine. But, I think if she were to read a bit more extensively on the topic with an open mind she might find that eating disorders do in fact exist.

Now, that doesn't sound likely to happen, so just take deep breaths Wannabeskinny, and let it roll off you.

I also think it is fair to recognize that the cards are getting stacked against all of us. We face a veritable barrage of images/smells/cultural cues about eating that influences us and shapes our perspectives (mostly negatively I feel).

Food manufacturers spend millions on research to make food addictive -- mostly nutritionally void food. That doesn't seem like a good thing for any of us. I thought this was an amazing eye-opening article on the subject: The Extraordinary Science of Addictive Junk Food.

I'm not saying I'm not ultimately responsible for my health, I am. But I think that person you spoke with was really over simplifying matters.

I was just saying I don't think 'personal responsibility' at all gets lost in any equation. I see people almost always blaming the individual who is overweight. Look at him or her, look at what THEY have done to themselves.

I admit it is complex from a health perspective. And yes as an individual you have to take charge.

But no matter how many lawsuits there are or are not, that doesn't change the fact that we almost always blame the individual virtually in whole for their weight. So I disagree with the other poster but also JohnP saying it somehow gets lost. I don't see it.

But here is the rub. The only way for me to get healthy was to tackle it by individual effort. Even if lawsuits were successful, doubtful in America, how is that going to help me if I was 5 years from getting diabetes? I can't turn back the clock to no super-sizing and healthier school lunches that I have already eaten. I have to fix it for me.

But I do hope to help my daughter and her peers. I will work to ban fast food ads on kids TV programs, especially young kids, and happy meals. I will work to help get her school district to serve healthier food, and a lot of other things to make it a less toxic environment for her.

Originally Posted by Elladorine:
I think it's obvious your friend has found her personal comfort in controlling what she eats, and given the fact that it's considered hard work gives her an elitist attitude with a complete lack of empathy for those that struggle elsewhere. It apparently makes it difficult for her to understand why others may have found their own personal comfort in, say, eating in excess. But we all have different demons and different ways of coping with our issues.

Very insightful points!

Originally Posted by Elladorine:
I think it's obvious your friend has found her personal comfort in controlling what she eats, and given the fact that it's considered hard work gives her an elitist attitude with a complete lack of empathy for those that struggle elsewhere. It apparently makes it difficult for her to understand why others may have found their own personal comfort in, say, eating in excess. But we all have different demons and different ways of coping with our issues.

As for nutrition information in restaurants, I think they're needed. Assumptions on calorie counts have no common sense in them, regardless of whether you're aiming for healthy or not. I don't recall off the top of my head, but there's a chain in California that serves a grilled chicken breast sandwich that's over 1000 calories, not including a side!

Great insight thank you! I don't doubt for a second that she works hard to maintain her figure, I don't think that all thin people have it easy or anything like that. I can recognize hard work when I see it, after all I do have a graduate degree, started my own business and lead a very successful career and take care of my toddler! I'm no stranger to getting the job done. And I can see and appreciate the hard work that goes in to someone's nutrition. I clearly see people eating only a little of dessert or passing on the bread basket or going for a walk after a big meal. I don't knock her for it and I don't think it's easy for her. She's just better at it than me. I'm not so successful at it. It's not laziness, it's just hard in a way that she can't relate to.

Regarding calorie counts on menus... Really? We're going to argue about this? If you don't like it don't look at it. Like I told her (she's an acquaintance, not a friend, she's a friend of a friend that shows up sometimes at common social functions.) I said to her that I don't like tilapia at all. But it shows up on menus anyway, I just skip over it. I need those calorie counts, sometimes the count is astronomically different than what I would have calculated on my own.

I think your friend is kind of ignorant and lacks empathy! She is just one of the many people who are prejudice to people who are overweight and people who have mental health problems. Also eating disorders are vast and encompass a huge range of symptoms and I don't think gluttony and eating disorders are related. She's assuming that because she can maintain her weight of 115lbs without binging or becoming malnourished everyone must have the ability. Weight loss is a lot less about self control and motivation than people think, your body defends it's current weight. Tell her to go do some research before she starts spewing out her uneducated opinions!

Originally Posted by diamondgeog:
But no matter how many lawsuits there are or are not, that doesn't change the fact that we almost always blame the individual virtually in whole for their weight. So I disagree with the other poster but also JohnP saying it somehow gets lost. I don't see it.

I'm not really sure what you're reading but I'm usually seeing the opposite of personal responsibility in these types of conversations.

It's HFCS.

It's food manufacturers.

It's insulin.

It's something.(But it's not the dieters fault.

I enjoy reading and learning new things and I've read a ton on this subject but I don't know that I've often read many (any) publications or blog entries that blames the individual. You wouldn't sell many diet books if the premise was how it's all our fault. No one wants to read that and it's not true anyways.

We can agree on one thing. It's a complex situation. You can't seperate genetics from environment.

Originally Posted by Wannabeskinny:
Regarding calorie counts on menus... Really? We're going to argue about this? If you don't like it don't look at it. ... I need those calorie counts, sometimes the count is astronomically different than what I would have calculated on my own.

Unless I am missing something you're "arguing" with someone who agrees completely with you. :D

Originally Posted by JohnP:
Unless I am missing something you're "arguing" with someone who agrees completely with you. :D

I think she meant she was arguing with Ms. "I'm too cool for fat kids".

I love calorie counts on menus! That makes life so much easier. I hate holding up a line in a restaurant or having to stand off to the side for five forevers before I order while I look up everything on a menu so I can determine what I can/can't eat. If I go in and there's calories on display, then all I have to know when I walk in is how many calories I have to play with and can choose from what I can clearly see is within my limit.

Salads can be a killer! I calculated a salad I was considering at Fatz the other day that was only 3-400 calories by itself, but the dressing that came with it made it a almost an 800 calorie salad! Um, yeah, thats why available calorie counts are important. You might be thinking you're being healthy when you're just eating some lettuce drenched in sugar oil bacon flavored juice. YUM!

Originally Posted by lazylioness:
So now, we have people that make a living putting blame on other people. It is McDonald's fault that we burn ourselves on coffee because we cannot possibly know on our own that it is hot..

While I may agree with many of your comments I do not agree with this one. Most people make a big deal out of the "coffee" lawsuit without knowing all the facts. I am sure most people would feel differently about this case if they knew the facts and/or if the 79 year old woman who had to spend 8 days in the hospital was someone they cared about. Here are just some of the facts that came out at trial:

• McDonald’s Operations Manual required the franchisee to hold its coffee at 180 to 190 degrees Fahrenheit;
  
• Coffee at that temperature, if spilled, causes third-degree burns the worst kind of burn) in three to seven seconds;
  
• Third-degree burns do not heal without skin grafting, debridement and whirlpool treatments that cost tens of thousands of dollars and result in permanent disfigurement, extreme pain and disability of the victim for many months, and in some cases, years;
  
• The chairman of the department of mechanical engineering and bio-mechanical engineering at the University of Texas testified that this risk of harm is unacceptable, as did a widely recognized expert on burns, the editor in chief of the leading scholarly publication in the specialty, the Journal of Burn Care and Rehabilitation;
  
• McDonald’s admitted that it has known about the risk of serious burns from its scalding hot coffee for more than 10 years — the risk was brought to its attention through numerous other claims and suits, to no avail;
  
• From 1982 to 1992, McDonald’s coffee burned more than 700 people, many receiving severe burns to the genital area, perineum, inner thighs, and buttocks;
  
• Not only men and women, but also children and infants, have been burned by McDonald’s scalding hot coffee, in some instances due to inadvertent spillage by McDonald’s employees;
  
• McDonald’s admitted at trial that its coffee is “not fit for consumption” when sold because it causes severe scalds if spilled or drunk;
  
• McDonald’s admitted at trial that consumers are unaware of the extent of the risk of serious burns from spilled coffee served at McDonald’s then required temperature;
  
• McDonald’s admitted that it did not warn customers of the nature and extent of this risk and could offer no explanation as to why it did not;
  
• Liebeck’s treating physician testified that her injury was one of the worst scald burns he had ever seen.
  
• McDonald’s did a survey of other coffee establishments in the area, and found that coffee at other places was between 30-40 degrees cooler.

Moreover, the Shriner’s Burn Institute in Cincinnati had published warnings to the franchise food industry that its members were unnecessarily causing serious scald burns by serving beverages above 130 degrees Fahrenheit. In refusing to grant a new trial in the case, Judge Robert Scott called McDonald’s behavior “callous.”

Plaintiff: The plaintiff was a 79 year old woman named Stella Liebeck.
Location: In 1992 Stella was riding as a passenger in a vehicle driven by her grandson in Albuquerque, New Mexico.
The Scene: Ms. Liebeck and her grandson pulled into a drive thru at a local McDonald’s Restaurant. After purchasing the coffee, the grandson pulled the car to a nearby curb and stopped the car so Ms Liebeck could add sugar and cream to her coffee. Stella was holding the cup between her legs. When she removed the lid from the cup it turned over and spilled into her lap.
Was the car stopped?
Fiction: I always hear “the car was moving” when Stella spilled the coffee. Not true!
Truth: The car was stopped.
Was Stella seriously injured?
Fiction: Stella only suffered minor injuries.
Truth: Stella suffered 3rd degree burns over 16% of her body. The burns were to her inner thighs, buttocks, perineum, and genital and groin area. The burns went as deep as her bone. She was wearing sweatpants which were literally burned into her skin.
Did Stella require hospitalization?
Fiction: Stella didn’t require hospitalization.
Truth: Stella was in the hospital for 8 days and underwent multiple debridement and skin-grafting surgeries.
Did Stella ever try to settle this for a lesser sum of money?
Fiction: Stella never tried to settle the case.
Truth: There was an early attempt to settle for the medical bills of approximately $11,000. Later Ms. Liebeck offered to settle for $90,000. McDonald’s generously offered $800.
Was the coffee too hot?
Myth: The coffee was not too hot
Truth: Testimony showed that the coffee was heated to 180 to 190. At 180 degrees, liquids can cause burns to human skin in 2 to 7 seconds. Coffee served at home is generally 135 degrees. Many commercial establishements serve coffee in the range of 130 degrees to 140 degrees. A burn risk exists with any coffee over 140 degrees.
Myth: McDonalds was not on notice that there coffee was causing burns
Truth: There was 700 other coffee burn cases that McDonald’s was aware of.
Myth: Stella received $2,700,000 in compensatory damages.
Truth: Actually Stella was only awarded $200,000 which was later reduced by the Judge to $160,000. The trial Judge reduced the $2,700,000 punitive damages to $480,000. Punitive damages were put in place to punish corporations for bad acts. Consequently the bulk of any punitive damage award in the State of New Mexico goes to the State of New Mexico.
Obviously, there is much more to this case than the “stigma” applied by insurance industry. The insurance industry has spent millions of dollars distorting this story to advance tort reform. Don’t buy the 30 second sound bites. Arm yourself with the facts.


Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Please take the time to look at the links below or do a google search for "facts" of the McDonald's Coffee Case.

http://www.brookslawgroup.com/blog/s...t-coffee-case/
http://www.citizen.org/hot-coffee
http://www.treehugger.com/corporate-...ers-video.html
http://mentalfloss.com/article/26862...coffee-lawsuit

I appreciate nutritional information for chain restaurants. Obviously what you get isn't going to match exactly since there will be some variation in the cooking but it is a good hard reality check. I'm planning a trip in november, to a place with a lot of restaraunts I don't normally have access too I've already been scouring the nutritional information. Planning in advance is the only thing that helps me keep from overeating in any sort of real way.

I'm with ya, I don'ts ee how having that info available hurts anyone. And it helps me... make some smarter choices once in a while.

Originally Posted by MamaP:
Sorry, but this is a pet peeve of mine. Please take the time to look at the links below or do a google search for "facts" of the McDonald's Coffee Case.

I'm curious. How hot is coffee normally served? I'm not an expert but I was under the impression that coffee from most places was hot enough to cause serious burns and the only thing that has changed at McDonalds is that now the cup has a warning label?

Not disagreeing ... just wondering since you have done a lot more investigation into this case than most people.