I'm running into the same thing in the US. Since I've turned 21, everyone wants to "go out". Which is fine, I enjoy social drinking...just not so much the caloric intake :(

Originally Posted by nelie:
I've been to China myself but not Japan and hung around Chinese families. NOT drinking isn't imposing your belief on someone. I mean you can drink _something_ but it doesn't need to be alcohol.

I agree with this, too.
And......
I worked and traveled with a hard drinking crowd, 7Up, Plain Tonic or even Water looks just like Vodka as long as people thought I was drinking that seemed to be ok.

Originally Posted by JayEll:
Really, Jesse Taylor? I mean, REALLY? Well good for you!

I agree with nelie, and I think the implication that somehow my not drinking alcohol is imposing my values (which, by the way, are hardly North American!) on others is just wrong. I don't insist that other people do not drink--that's completely up to them. I don't insist that they take on my values. Nor should they insist that I take on theirs.

Jay

Yes, really. But as I further went on to say, if I don't agree with the ethics or values, why would I go there in the first place?

Jay, you say "I don't insist that other people do not drink--that's completely up to them." but what about in your own home? Do you allow people to drink and get drunk or do you insist they behave per your standards? My point was, and stands, that when you go to another country, you should respect that country and not insist your beliefs be followed. I mean, I certainly will never go to India and order a hamburger.

Originally Posted by nessalyn:
I'm running into the same thing in the US. Since I've turned 21, everyone wants to "go out". Which is fine, I enjoy social drinking...just not so much the caloric intake :(

Offer to be the DD if you don't want to drink. That's perfectly acceptable and everyone buys soda for the DD. My daughter is under 21 and they go out and she always gets to be the DD which until she turns 21 is fine with me.

Diet coke and vodka is my drink of choice. Why? Because I can have one, and then just have diet cokes all night and no one is the wiser :)

Originally Posted by Jesse Taylor:
Yes, really. But as I further went on to say, if I don't agree with the ethics or values, why would I go there in the first place?

Jay, you say "I don't insist that other people do not drink--that's completely up to them." but what about in your own home? Do you allow people to drink and get drunk or do you insist they behave per your standards? My point was, and stands, that when you go to another country, you should respect that country and not insist your beliefs be followed. I mean, I certainly will never go to India and order a hamburger.

That wasn't the issue though, it is completely the opposite like someone who is Hindu coming here, agreeing to go to a BBQ and being told that they need to eat beef. Similar to someone going to a party in Japan or wherever and being expected to have to drink alcohol.

You know maybe before coming here I would not have believed how much drinking is a part of the work culture, and maybe I would have been up on my high horse too calling it wrong and saying I would never do that too.

But yes you are expected to drink at these functions. If your boss personally comes up to you and pours you a drink, it's pretty much not an option at that point to say no. By saying no, he loses face which is one of the ultimate no-no's here. So pretend if you must but you better look like you took that drink, even if when you put the glass down it's still full. And, females have it much easier than males. I have rarely seen a korean woman get drunk at one of these "hwe-shiks" They usually leave early making the excuse that they need to take care of their kids or they use some variation of the method I mentioned earlier.
Personally, I am not comfortable drinking around my boss but I have made it through entire evenings without drinking and without people noticing I'm not drinking. I don't have any medical issues or moral objections to drinking but even if I did I would have to learn ways of saying no without flat out saying "NO" (which happens to be a necessary survival technique here anyway *^.^*)

So someone can say that if they get fired for not drinking than it's ok because they don't want "that kind of job", but what do you do if it's the ONLY kind of job?

And there are aspects of Korean culture that I do not agree with but I would be completely irrational if I expected the people around me to change aspects of their culture in their country simply to please me. I am a guest of this country and while I am here I will do my best to respect the culture. And that goes for any other country I visit and if I can't handle it than I can simply go home.

Originally Posted by Jesse Taylor:
Jay, you say "I don't insist that other people do not drink--that's completely up to them." but what about in your own home? Do you allow people to drink and get drunk or do you insist they behave per your standards? My point was, and stands, that when you go to another country, you should respect that country and not insist your beliefs be followed. I mean, I certainly will never go to India and order a hamburger.

My partner also doesn't drink. If people want to come to our house and expect to drink, we tell them ahead of time that they will have to bring their own. I don't object to them drinking, but I don't feel like I have to supply them with alcohol. If they get drunk, that's not my problem either, unless they become assaultive or obnoxious, in which case they will not be invited back. And that's true whether I live in the U.S.A. or Japan or Kathmandu!

I don't insist that anyone in another country follow my beliefs. I think I made that clear, so that's a non-argument. I would never insist that I be served meat in a vegetarian country, either. And to say, Well, don't go there then--that's like telling people who don't agree with you politically that they should go live somewhere else. It's another bogus argument. I'm not about to start smoking if I go to France, for example. So, should I just not go to France?

The point is, it's OK to respectfully abstain. If that means faking it, so be it.

Jay

Originally Posted by nelie:
That wasn't the issue though, it is completely the opposite like someone who is Hindu coming here, agreeing to go to a BBQ and being told that they need to eat beef. Similar to someone going to a party in Japan or wherever and being expected to have to drink alcohol.

I see it totally differently. If someone who is Hindu goes to a bar-b-que and all there is is beef, I have to wonder why he went in the first place. I was raised differently, that's all there is. I was taught to respect someone's home and beliefs while in their home. If you go to a home where you know they eat totally differently, you have no right to complain that there's nothing for you to eat.

And Jay - I have no political beliefs. It's amazing how much easier that makes my life.

Originally Posted by Dee SoKo:
Personally, I am not comfortable drinking around my boss but I have made it through entire evenings without drinking and without people noticing I'm not drinking. I don't have any medical issues or moral objections to drinking but even if I did I would have to learn ways of saying no without flat out saying "NO" (which happens to be a necessary survival technique here anyway *^.^*)

And I don't think anyone is arguing against 'techniques' that make it seem like you are drinking without drinking. It is just that you don't actually have to drink, like it seems you have done. Although for certain people, like alcoholics who having a drink in their hand for even a moment, there may be few options.

In the US, techniques tend to be things like 'order seltzer and lime instead' or 'order a diet coke and pretend like it is rum and coke' but are those options available? who knows? I think if it was me and someone poured me a drink, I'd either find a respectful way to dump it or accidentally leave it somewhere and grab a non-alcoholic drink.

Originally Posted by Jesse Taylor:
I see it totally differently. If someone who is Hindu goes to a bar-b-que and all there is is beef, I have to wonder why he went in the first place. I was raised differently, that's all there is. I was taught to respect someone's home and beliefs while in their home. If you go to a home where you know they eat totally differently, you have no right to complain that there's nothing for you to eat.

I'm vegan. I go to lots of places and sometimes those places, even restaurants, have few to no options for me. My techniques include eating prior to going or bringing my own food. It isn't the complaint that there is no food, it is just that you don't have to eat the food offered. I like hanging out with people and often those people don't know how to navigate my food choices but I don't expect them to.

Originally Posted by nelie:
I'm vegan. I go to lots of places and sometimes those places, even restaurants, have few to no options for me. My techniques include eating prior to going or bringing my own food. It isn't the complaint that there is no food, it is just that you don't have to eat the food offered. I like hanging out with people and often those people don't know how to navigate my food choices but I don't expect them to.

That's totally different than what I'm saying. You aren't complaining that people aren't catering to you. My point is it would be like me coming to you and complaining there was no meat. In my house, if it's not BYO_, and you brought your own food, you'd be asked to leave. PERIOD. It's an insult and it's just not done. It's like insisting you wear your shoes in a house where shoes are banned.

Originally Posted by Jesse Taylor:
That's totally different than what I'm saying. You aren't complaining that people aren't catering to you. My point is it would be like me coming to you and complaining there was no meat. In my house, if it's not BYO_, and you brought your own food, you'd be asked to leave. PERIOD. It's an insult and it's just not done. It's like insisting you wear your shoes in a house where shoes are banned.

And if it is someone's house I came to, I'd know them well enough to bring my own food. I bring my own food a lot of places, work functions, family events, etc. And it varies, sometimes it is a Clifbar in my purse, just in case.

Overall, if it is somewhere that has some food that I can eat, I will eat the food offered. Anyone who serves me food knows ahead of time my food choices, except maybe a restaurant but I'm glad to sip on some iced tea while hanging out with people. If it is someone's house, I'll talk to them ahead of time and tell them I don't want them to worry about me and that I am happy with simple things like fruit, veggies, etc.

The whole point is if someone expects you to eat <blank> and you don't for some reason, then you don't. Whether you have to fake it somehow, then you may choose to do that. The same can be said for drinking or not drinking alcohol.

I'm an ESL teacher (although I'm in Canada right now). I totally understand what you are going through.

I was recently pregnant so figured out all sorts of tricks (not that I had to explain to anyone, but in the first few months I did as I didn't want to tell people). My favourite... diet 7 up with a lime in it. Looks like booze :) Same with diet coke. Good luck.

If you look like you are drinking, it makes life a lot easier than trying to explain you want to lose weight especially in Japan. That's just a convo you don't want to get into of course. :)

Originally Posted by nelie:
And if it is someone's house I came to, I'd know them well enough to bring my own food. I bring my own food a lot of places, work functions, family events, etc. And it varies, sometimes it is a Clifbar in my purse, just in case.

As I said, that's the difference in how you were raised and I was raised. If I brought my own food to my father's house, my butt would be kicked out. I either eat what his wife prepares, or I don't come over. Same with my entire family.

Alcohol can be faked, it's easy. Take the drink, pour it down the toilet, leave it on a table with six drinks that look like yours. Fake it. Just don't make a scene or embarrass your host.